minervana wrote:

The characters who don't have sex with anyone are emotionally fucked with like woah. Granted, everybody is in this series. But compare Kozue to her brother. Or Ruka to Juri. Or Tokiko to Mikage. Or Saionji to Touga. Who suffers more, the virgin or the...? I mean, disregarding the cheesy rhyme I just invented.

The series points out that different people mature at different rates. Miki is 13 or 14 but he's just hit puberty; his sister, in contrast, is already sexually active. Utena is 14 but she seems almost unaware that her sexuality exists, which is why Touga can play her like a sousaphone in the first arc, and why she so forcefully rejects him in the second and third arcs.

In contrast, Akio, who is a psychopath, uses sex to get whatever he wants. I always liked the scene between Mrs. Ohtori and Akio, because it gives you some insight into the true nature of power and privilege at Ohtori. One word from Mrs. Ohtori and Akio would be out on his ass (Anthy's magic notwithstanding), but she doesn't do it, and he rubs this in her face, driving her deeper into shame and guilt. This is all discussed on Gio's website, including the point that Mrs. Ohtori and Akio are sort of the adult, "fallen" version of the princess-prince relationship. Kind of like Mrs. Robinson in the Graduate ("I guess you kind of gave up on art over the years, then, huh?" "...Kind of.")

On a related note:



This shot is based on a famous painting by Manet, which itself might be based on Venus of Urbino by Titian. Manet's painting is called "Olympia" but it really shows a prostitute in repose; the flowers are presumably from some client or other. However, the symbols of prostitution are absent, and Nemuro is clothed. (The background is similar to the original though) We never get any explicit, or even implicit, idea that Mikage and "Mamiya" are sleeping together, or that Mikage has ever slept with anyone. Is he then a prostitute for Akio's goals?

Nights1stStar wrote:

Apparently, RGU during its original airing was marketed as a kid's show and had to follow the regulations of its time slot. Thus, I find it hilarious that a series which doesn't use the word "sex" once (or "making love", or even "sleeping together", or any of the other common euphemisms) happens to be the most sexily intelligent show I've ever seen. Implication runs rampant in nearly every episode, yet few of the scenes feel like pandering fanservice. Hat's off to you, Ikuhara. If I could write as well as you...

I'm totally agree with you. I took my hat off to Ikuhara when I finished episode 33. He managed to show us the moment in which a 14 year old teenage girl is loosing her virginity to an adult and if someone innocent like a child or someone whom doesn't know what's going on, watch that very scene wont see anything strange mainly because Utena is talking about food (with some double take of course) and because that scene doesn't show anything but at the same is the most explicit one in the whole series.
My best friend is watching Utena now and her 4 years old son watch it with her. He doesn't understand the dialogues since they are in japanese with subs in english, but he can recognize the characters. When I was seeing some screenshots from the series, the little guy saw Saionji and he told "the green boy is a bad boy because he slap the girl" and when he saw Touga, he said "the red boy is good and the yellow girl love him so much". So for the kids the visual factor would be the important thing and all the subtles and double takes would be missed. I've see this kind of thing from another director, Koichi Mashimo who made Noir, Madlax and Phantom. Even when the last two ones were more explicit with certain scenes there was other things that play with the inuendo factor. And in Noir it was almost all the time.

Now returning to the main thread (I can be like chuchu and ran away on the trees ) I'm agree with most part of the chart but I don't think that Miki and Kozue share THAT kind of relationship. I can bet  they were  jelaousy with eath other and very possesive. Kozue in the manga version doesn't allow any girl to approach to her brother but I don't think they were in the same league than Anthy and Akio. And about Juri and the nameless guy, I don't know. It's possible, maybe Juri isn't just plain lesbian and she tends to be more bi. Maybe the only girl who really shake her world was Shiori. We didn't see Juri being behind other girls, she didn't intend to approach to Utena in that way.

Last edited by Carrie Asagiri (02-15-2010 06:15:33 PM)

Frau Eva wrote:

I have a personal bias that EVERYONE in the series is basically bi

Ditto.

Then again it's my default viewing of everyone in every show

I actually find it very likely that something happened between Miki and Kozue.  For me, her obsession with him just isn't normal (but we're talking SKU here so wtf does "normal" even mean).  It seems to me that the garden they used to play in has a special significance to the both of them, perhaps even in a positive light for one and a negative light for the other, but it's hard to tell who's for which.  Kozue seems to me to be the one to have wanted and to have enjoyed whatever experimentation they might have had and Miki, the moral one, once he realized what they were doing was wrong, cut it off completely and Kozue got mad.  That's my interpretation.

And about the whole bi thing, yeah, I definitely agree, everyone's basically bi, even if they lean more towards one way or another.  But that kind of assumption's hard to make for people like Miki who has only been with maybe Anthy and maybe his sister.

oldboy wrote:

On a related note:

http://ohtori.nu/galerie/d/9402-1/Series_ep23_057.jpg

This shot is based on a famous painting by Manet, which itself might be based on Venus of Urbino by Titian. Manet's painting is called "Olympia" but it really shows a prostitute in repose; the flowers are presumably from some client or other. However, the symbols of prostitution are absent, and Nemuro is clothed. (The background is similar to the original though) We never get any explicit, or even implicit, idea that Mikage and "Mamiya" are sleeping together, or that Mikage has ever slept with anyone. Is he then a prostitute for Akio's goals?

omg, this is such an revealing and awsome information o:
I love this kind of references ~ (L

Frau Eva wrote:

I have a personal bias that EVERYONE in the series is basically bi

It is a bit sad when the straightest character in the show appears to be Miki. The poor effeminate bastard.

Oh, Tatsuya...I always manage to forget he exists. Every time I watch the Onion Prince episode, I have to face-palm and, "What in the...oh. That's right. It's Tatsuya."

But I always laugh at him when Mikage kicks him out of Nemuro Hall. Always...

Last edited by KillerxXxQueen (02-18-2010 07:18:36 AM)

Frau Eva wrote:

Let me say for a sec, that I agree wholeheartedly with what was said earlier about how Ikuhara is a genius and can do so much without getting very explicit at all. WHY HAS THIS MAN NOT MADE ANYTHING ELSE?!

Yeah I wonder the same thing about this guy XD. But a possible reply beyond the fact that he moved to the U.S., would be that he wouldn't find a right place in the current anime industry. I mean things changed a lot since the 90's and now not only the industry is aiming to other things but the people whom watch anime too. And with this I'm not saying that this is a possitive thing. Now is very hard to find jewels like the ones made in the 90's.

Frau Eva wrote:

And I think so few people consider that Juri could be bi. Juri is so firmly THE LESBIAN in so many people's minds that I kind of wonder what show they're watching; assuming a very fixed sexual identity just doesn't work very well with this show. Shiori is just THE ONE she's obsessed over, and its just that it's our first real big shock of the show messing with our expectations. If we found out much later, it would be more like, "Oh, Juri sometimes likes her own gender too, whatev." If we found out later, after we've seen Touga and Akio macking on anything that moves, I think less people would assume she only likes girls. Sure, she doesn't like Ruka, but she could just, you know, not like <i>him</i>. Sure, she flirts with Utena near the end, but she also does the same with Miki. There's not a lot you can say either way. Bi is a purely agnostic position, and this is one of the few series where is just seems damn likely.

Totally agree with you. Juri is one of the few characters from the show that I really respect and in some point admire (besides Utena of course). She reminds me to myself and I know how much she have been suffering from Shiori. Sometimes I don't get the meaning of putting labels con characters about the sexuality when being obsessed or maybe in love with someone of the same gender doesn't imply to be just lesbian or gay. Love and obsessions (most of the time could be together and be confused with each other) tends to go beyond the mere labels. Obviously isn't something easy to confess. I think that Juri was safe in her place with some people seeing her as a lesbian or other ones seeing her like someone creepy, because that assure her to be alone with her obsession.

Frau Eva wrote:

I have a personal bias that EVERYONE in the series is basically bi, for lack of a better term(mostly because there's a moment when I throw up my hands and realize Ikuhara is totally not going by typical sexual constructs). It just sort of makes everything much easier to think that Ikuhara was going for everyone being able to love anyone, if only their neuroses didn't get in the way.

Well, Ikuhara was showing the sexuality in a moment of our lives that is adolescence. That moment is just to experience and to construct the sexual identity we'll have as adults. We are dealing here with guys whom are between 13 and 17 years old. They were living at a schools were the adults were mere shadows and the parents seems to be nonexistant, so they have the freedom to choose to love whoever they want, except like you say their neuroses were more big than their love XD.

winksniper wrote:

I actually find it very likely that something happened between Miki and Kozue.  For me, her obsession with him just isn't normal (but we're talking SKU here so wtf does "normal" even mean).  It seems to me that the garden they used to play in has a special significance to the both of them, perhaps even in a positive light for one and a negative light for the other, but it's hard to tell who's for which.  Kozue seems to me to be the one to have wanted and to have enjoyed whatever experimentation they might have had and Miki, the moral one, once he realized what they were doing was wrong, cut it off completely and Kozue got mad.  That's my interpretation.

I like your point and is very possible. Coming from Kozue, there isn't anything to be surprised. I just didn't buy the idea of the twins being lovers like any other couple in the show. But what you say makes more sense.

Akio's definitely the brightest star in the galaxy.

You need to add some "tension" lines between a few characters, namely Saionji and Wakaba (they were sleeping in the same room, for goodness' sakes!), and maybe Mikage and the original Mamiya. And maybe an "it's possible" line between Nanami and Touga.

What are the tension/hints/subtext between Anthy (as Mamiya) and Mikage? I have to rewatch that part of the series, I'm just curious.

I reiterate my point that Akio is involved in every explicit or heavily implicit sex scene, save the one between Touga and Kozue. All roads really do lead to him, or at least to a part of his anatomy.

KissFromARose wrote:

Although, i don't think you're allowed into Ohtori without effing Akio. I'm just saying.. its like pre-req material.

More like a graduation requirement.

I love the idea with Utena and The Graduate!