KaleMarsh wrote:

Though I think the possibility that she loves Anthy, and only saves Anthy because she loves her (whether it's friendship or romance) puts an interesting spin on Dios' original take on the prince.  Do you think her love for Anthy makes Utena more or less of a prince?

Shadow Play Princess wrote:

That's a good question, Kale...I can see the point that saving someone because you love them would make your act less selfless, and therefore less princely, but I disagree. I think it was Utena's lack of real love for Anthy that prevented her from being the prince early on, and the immature, still selfish nature of her love that prevented her from being the prince until episode 39. It seems to me that if Utena was playing the prince out of anything other than unconditional, consummate love for Anthy, then yes, she is less of a prince. I don't think this is the case in the series.

That's a really good answer.  I would add something extra, though, which is that the show -- at least twice -- quietly moves the goalposts on what it means to be a prince.  For much of the show, a prince is someone who will save anyone, even someone they have no connection to, even at great cost to themselves.  That's the kind of prince Dios was, and it's the kind of prince Utena wanted to be that night in the chapel; remember, she didn't know anything about Anthy's impaled silhouette except that she was in pain. 

But Utena never actually was that kind of prince.  Remember episode 1?  Utena sees Anthy getting slapped around, but that's not why she challenges Saionji!  She challenges Saionji because she thinks he hurt Wakaba, someone Utena cares about.  So as the show goes on -- we see this happening most explicitly in episode 12, but it continues throughout the Black Rose arc -- a prince is gradually redefined as someone who will save those they love.

And then the goalposts get moved one last time in the Apocalypse Arc.  We learn, to no one's surprise but Utena's, that Anthy is a lot more self-aware and a lot scarier than Utena had been giving her credit for.  Utena discovers that she's been sleeping with her brother.  It's not rape; Utena knows that.  Anthy has been doing this voluntarily, and in the context of Utena's own taboo relationship with Akio, no less.  In other words, Anthy has the power to save herself, but instead she's choosing to hurt herself (and her friend!) more.  Utena struggles mightily with herself over this, but she reaches a resolution even before the climactic duel, and it's embodied in Anthy's suicide scene.  Utena's words to Anthy, there on the rooftop, are: "Nigeru no ka?"  So you're running away?

Now hang on a second and try to hear those words coming out of Dios's mouth, or out of Utena's mouth in episode 12.  You can't do it.  Those words aren't consistent with the vision of saving someone, whether it's a stranger or a loved one.  "Nigeru no ka?" finally acknowledges that Utena can't save Anthy.  If Anthy wants to run away, or wants to stay in her abusive relationship, Utena can't do a damn thing about it.  This is a tragic realization and it's the beating heart of the late show.  The most Utena can do is help create the conditions for Anthy to save herself.  She can be the strong girl on the rooftop who can pull Anthy back to safety; she can communicate to Anthy that she loves her and would feel hurt and betrayed if she jumped; but she can't stop Anthy from jumping.  This scene, of course, is nothing but a reframing of the events of episode 39.  Utena doesn't save Anthy by opening the coffin.  She just finally succeeds, by example, in giving Anthy enough hope that Anthy -- Anthy! -- is willing to reach out and take her hand.  By the end of the series, the idea of a prince who goes around saving people is discredited altogether.  A prince, if you still want to use that word, is someone who treats their friends with love, and supports them as they struggle to become their best selves.  That's the kind of prince Utena becomes.

I think that this redefinition of princehood is equally resonant whether Utena loves Anthy romantically or platonically.  By the end of the show, we've moved decisively past the point where it makes Utena less princely to "save" someone she's in love with instead of a "mere" friend or stranger.  Anyone who can take a sword in the stomach from a trusted friend and still act out of real love for them is an unimpeachable prince in the final sense, whether or not they want to get into their pants.  I don't know if Utena would have done the same thing for a stranger.  Maybe she would have.  But when Dios was gallivanting around saving strangers, it made him less of a prince to his sister, so maybe it's right and good to devote your best love to your friends rather than to strangers.  Or maybe the distinction between friends and strangers is artificial to begin with.  Either way, we have no grounds to gainsay Utena's nobility.

Ashnod wrote:

I just want to add something here. Utena reacts to the slap very much like the expected Prince would.

Saying "Oi, that's going a little far?"    I kid; I agree with you.  She probably would have stepped in, like she did in the video game.  But I don't know if she would've gotten in a swordfight over it.  She might not have known either.  Luckily, she didn't have to make that decision; she only had to make an easier one.

There's a lot of discussion in here concerning Utena's feelings for Anthy, but what about Anthy's feelings for Utena?
One thing I've been wondering about is concerning this:

Anthy: You remind me of the Dios I once loved. But you can't become my Prince. Because you're a girl.

Did Anthy like (or as I personally believe, love) Utena for being Utena, or simply because she reminded her so much of Dios?

Well, we know that Utena and Anthy definitely were in a romantic and sexual relationship in the movie. They really removed all ambiguity from their relationship in the film. As for the anime, I don't think they ever truly got into a sexual or romantic relationship but that' s definitely the direction it was going in by the end of the series. I do think that Anthy had a bit of a crush on Utena in the series, mainly because of the fact that she seems to be touching Utena's breasts a lot. There's also that Black Rose episode about Tsuwabuki where Anthy says something along the lines of, "We do lots of adult things together, right Utena-sama?" And of course Utena is totally obvious to how that sounds.

We also get a lot of subtext with all that hand-holding they do every night when they move in with Akio. I do think that at the end of the series Utena's love for Anthy is more than platonic. Juri even asks Utena what she's planing on doing about Anthy since she clearly loves her. I know that Utena denies that her love is more than platonic, but Utena is pretty good at not being completely honest with herself. Utena also tells Juri that she doesn't want to be a "love martyr" like Juri was with Shiori. Then a few episodes later Utena's still willing to save Anthy even after Anthy stabs her. Utena gets stabbed with the million swords of hatred just to save Anthy and if that's not being a "love martyr" then I don't know what is. And of course there's the fact that Utena tells Anthy that the only time she's ever been truly happy was when she was with her.

So, long story short the movie had them in a very obvious romantic relationship and while the anime was more ambiguous, there were plenty of hints of them developing a romance in the last few episodes and I think that their relationship will definitely be romantic post-series. I haven't read any of the manga except for the one based on the movie. Anthy and Utena seemed to be in a relationship at the end of the book though. I really don't know about the rest of the manga though.

CausalityStar wrote:

And of course there's the fact that Utena tells Anthy that the only time she's ever been truly happy was when she was with her.

I've seen a few people mention this, and I hate to be a party pooper, but that translation is actually incorrect.
The subbed version of Utena I have also has this incorrect translation, which is: ""Himemiya, you still don't know... the only time I've ever been really happy... was when I was with you."

Now, what was being said in Japanese was this:
「姫宮、君は知らないんだ…君と一緒にいることで僕がどれだけ幸せだったか…
Which in romaji is this:
Himemiya, kimi wa shiranainda... kimi to ishoni iru kotode boku ga doredake shiawase dattaka...

Now, had "boku ga doredake" been written as "boku ga dake", or had "ishoni iru kotode" been written as "ishoni iru dake", then yes, it would have been translated as "only time I was happy".
However, since that is correct, the real translation should be:

"Himemiya, you don't know... just how happy I was just being with you..."

So yeah, still pretty powerful, but not as extreme as "only time I was truly happy".

On a different note, after watching episode 30 there was something that got caught on my mind.

Utena: Come to think of it, do you have anybody you love?
-Brief silence-
Anthy: Yes, I do. I also have a prince of my own.

Who do you guys think Anthy was talking about here? Akio? Dios? Or maybe even Utena?

I'm away for a month and all of my favorite thread necros are coming to life. im so happy.


First:

Louchan wrote:

Who do you guys think Anthy was talking about here? Akio? Dios? Or maybe even Utena?

I really really really want an answer to this. My initial reaction was she's talking about Utena. But is she really?... (secretly i want it to be about Utena.. but ...)

Im honestly shocked we didnt answer this question in the past 5 years... so I'll be interested to hear others ideas on that.


Second to DefineMask's comments:

Episode 37-39 are the hardest episodes to parse for me. Nothing is straightforward so its really hard to diagnose whats happening within them.

I want to believe anthy stabbed her to .. well.. try to save her, but what she says to Utena is pretty brutal. Was her intent to make her run away, as others kind of discussed with the canterella / suicide scene?

Love in general is such a hard thing to define. I love my friends, I love family, I love my boyfriend... I love ramen...... We've really overloaded it. Thats a separate topic for another day, but my point mentioning that is... I think Utena and Anthy do *love* each other. Love as defined by, care for... would go to great lengths to take care of each other, would be hurt by the other's departure... After the series, maybe sexually, during the series the only in your face evidence we get is ED2.... What even is ED2? fantasy? Fan service? A shove in the face of prime time TV? Symbolism? (of course it is.)

I think its pretty clear once Utena has the sword in her back, she's asking why... trying to figure everything out...but it isnt until Dios reminds her of everything she's fought against does it click. She watches Anthy get destroyed by these swords of hate. She punches the ground, she's damn determined. I dont care who it is, if i don't feel some outpouring of love towards some human being, if they stab me in the back (regardless of intentions) im not gonna get up and try to help them. Utena loves her, flaws and all. She stands up and tries to fix it and make it right. After all of these intense feelings she watches Anthy's body fall into the abyss ... and accepts her fate. She has to be devastated. She gave everything to try to save Anthy, to show Anthy her love.... and then Anthy is gone just like that.

I don't know that Utena and Anthy had any form of a physical relationship during the series aside from holding hands a few times. (but even then, in Asian cultures its pretty normal to interlock arms or hold hands with your closest of girl friends).

Anthy leaves everything behind and says, "wait for me Utena" or at least I think I remember that being her words. Wait for what? Over the past x amount of time between episode 39 and her walking out the door -- she figured it out. I feel like Anthy was really conflicted over the course of the whole show-- and even in the final 3 episodes she loves Utena, but just doesnt see how its possible for them to be together, so she pushes her away to try to save her. ED 3 is her saying, I love Utena and I want to be with Utena and I'm going to choose to be active in this now, instead of passive.

TL;DR: Utena and Anthy loved each other(as very close friends, perhaps) before the credits roll, but I don't think they were physical/sexual lovers until at least episode 37 hits and then it moves in that direction. Nothing really physical happens until post-39. I still dont fully understand the literal backstab. Still wanna know who Anthy's prince is.

Ah, I meant when she said I also have a prince of my own. Have we answered who she was referring to?

I don't think they are a couple in the series or manga. Not that I have anything against shojo-ai, but I think romance would be lower on their lists regardless of whether it was with a girl or a guy.

Like many fans, I have gone back and forth regarding this over the years. One of the main reasons why I picked up SKU was because of the lesbian angle so my first viewing was very bias. Reviews have brought to light the many layers of ambiguity that have already been brilliantly addressed in this discussion.

As of late I am leaning more toward a romantic relationship interpretation. And this because it gives an added strength to the already infamous Akio-sex scene. In many ways it does not make a lot of sense to see how a sexual involvement with Akio would be a betrayal of Anthy. There is a time for plenty of people in their early teens when the fear of losing a very close friend to a romantic relationship can be disturbingly difficult to endure, so it is possible along those lines was happening. But more than hurting Anthy, Utena is hurting Kanae who is actually engaged to Akio and who Utena knows even if not in any great depth. Given that Utena is entirely oblivious of the incest, she does not have a strong reason for seeing a relationship with Akio as a slight against Akio's sister.

If, however, Utena is aware that Anthy has romantic feelings for her and/or she herself reciprocitates them, there is an added reason for seeing why she would view an involvement with Akio as wounding Anthy. More than that, and ironically, it may also be part of what pushes her into accepting Akio's advances. I am not saying that Utena and Akio are equal parties in the affair but she does allow it to progress. Given how Utena insists on many an occasion that she is a 'normal girl', I suspect she would be wary of accepting any lesbian tendencies. This mindset can easily cause her to waver if she were to find herself attracted to a girl and thus give her an extra motivation to be swayed by Akio, who just so happens to a man.

In other words, while Utena's relationship with Akio is taboo and she is aware of that, it does not conflict with her self-image so much as falling in love with a girl would.

In this light, Anthy's line, "You remind me of the Dios I once loved. But you can't become my Prince. Because you're a girl." may illustrate Utena's point of view. So long as Utena is thinking in schematic terms of princes and princesses, she can never accept Anthy as a romantic partner because the twisted fairy motif does not allow for girls to be together.

If any of this has a bearing on what is actually going on then I expect it was contemplated in Akio's plan. To get Anthy to form a kind of intimacy with Utena in such a way as to make Utena more receptive of his advances. It is no coincidence that it just as Utena as Anthy are at their closest (apart from the very ending, perhaps) that Akio can strike.

I am not saying this is the sole reason why Akio's seduction works, only that it was a part of it and scripted in advance by Akio.