I was wondering when this thread was going to show up. The older guys (16+ I suppose) are definitely portrayed as worse than the younger guys, who while they aren't perfect are in many ways quite realistic and that makes us more sympathetic to their flaws. And they're just as definitely portrayed as worse than the older girls (I don't think they really qualify as women yet).

On the female front, we do have a few Anthy-slappers, but Juri is portrayed pretty sympathetically outside of that and Keiko and Nanami are more childish than anything else.

I do think many of the older men were portrayed a little harshly, however, I think this also has a bit to do with gender politics and how an audience of (what is presumed for most viewers of the show) a primarily female audience.

Juri is no saint, as Valeli pointed out. Can we really count Juri's unnecessary abuse of Anthy and others as all that much worse than Saionji? It's only because we operate under the cultural history of men often having the upper-hand and using it towards abuse. Juri, as a female using aggression, is seen in a much more favorable light because portraying traditional masculine traits is sometimes seen as strong, feminist, bucking the trend! But really? Assaulting Anthy and Utena over nothing more than words? Even if something particularly strikes a nerve, that's still uncalled for. That and...honestly, fans give her way too much slack for all her emo crap. I love Juri dearly, but moping like that for so long over an old flame is pathetic.

Nanami, despite the fact that I love her, is possibly one of the most malicious. She does horrible things to people just for being within her brother's gaze, something I think even she realizes at times is often completely out of the victim's hands. The dress incident was ludicrous in its sheer malice. Nanami is enough of a socialite to know that Anthy tends to draw as little attention to herself in school as possible. The idea of Anthy actively trying to steal Touga away from Nanami is insane to most anyone(whether she could actually do it is another story, but the only people likely to know this would be Akio, Touga, and few else. Anyone else within the school wouldn't have a clue). Nanami just decided to torture someone else for what she perceived as a slight from Touga. Sure, it's a nice warning not to accept should Touga make the offer, but she's not stopping anything really. She knows it and doesn't really care.

I also think its important to note that many of the females who act maliciously have these malicious acts more closely tied to immaturity and childishness than the males do. Nanami, Keiko, Shiori - we're all given portraits of these three as being fairly lacking in maturity overall. Shiori's clinginess regarding Ruka makes her look immature; Nanami's clinginess regarding her brother makes her look immature; actually, now that I think on it, Keiko is probably the character whom we see the least immaturity in of the three, although no one would ever slip up and grant her as being mature.

Yes, the males of the show are immature in their own way, but I think the females whom act cruelly have their cruelty much more directly associated with immaturity than the males do.

Frau Eva wrote:

It's only because we operate under the cultural history of men often having the upper-hand and using it towards abuse. Juri, as a female using aggression, is seen in a much more favorable light because portraying traditional masculine traits is sometimes seen as strong, feminist, bucking the trend!

Well, actually, Juri being female but behaving aggressively is really all the more reason that we should, in theory, dislike her - men whom act out aggressively, hey, they're tough, they're manly! Women whom act out aggressively? Hey, what a bitch! There must be something wrong with her! Women are supposed the be passive, even it today's world - a woman in a competitve business setting who is active in trying to elevate her position is almost always labelled a bitch, whereas a guy doing the same does not gain this hateful label.

Anyway, to return to Utena...

Like ShatteredMirror said, it isn't necessarily the actions of the characters so much as how much of a sympathetic light they are portrayed in - Juri's cool, level-headedness makes her look better than Saionji, whom seems to be the closest thing to a loose-cannon that the series posesses. And of course, the back story Juri recieves helps - we get it sooner, and it is more detailed overall than Saionji's - we only see a snapshot of Saionji's past when he is a small child, whereas with Juri we see more of a specific portion of her life when she was a young teenager.

Frau Eva wrote:

While that is true of the general populace, it must be remembered that the people who watch Utena are far from that. Given the themes of Utena, the general populace will simply be turned off seeing Utena crossdress, lots of gay couples, and even incest.
It takes a pretty openminded person to watch it, and probably someone who's already been exposed to certain modes of thought on gender. There's a different segment of the population that's watching Utena, and the show itself brings together people of a certain view and already agrees with certain feminist principles. That, and even in the wider population, guys slapping girls is seen as brutish and abusive. Saionji isn't going to get slack from anyone for that. Girls slapping girls though? Catfight=hot! Even if it wasn't seen quite so...piggishly, the wider populace would be seen as much more acceptable for Juri to hit Anthy than Saionji because of the equal gender involved. She may be seen as a bit bitchy, but at least she's "picking on someone her own size."

I think it still depends on the person watching the show -- I tend to lean more towards the "what the hell you doing you crazy bitch?!" end of the spectrum when it comes to the way Juri lashes out at Anthy and Utena. It shows an interesting side to her character, as she is usually so contained -- her superiority is usually demonstrated through a frigid and commanding persona that gives even adults the willies -- but Anthy makes her lose that poise, as does Utena. In that way, she actually has more in common with Saionji than one might think...because for all that Saionji has anger issues, they always seem to have some justification. We don't ever see him lash out at somebody for some random reason (because frankly if his violence was a knee-jerk non-thinking thing, I'd have fully expected him to smack Nanami upside the head when she sucker-punched him over an egg...).

Frau Eva wrote:

But I certainly agree that the portrayal is simply different of the girls and guys. Saionji and Touga really don't get as much delving back into their history as other character's(which is a shame, because the little we do see raises SO many questions). How much we know about a person's youth seems to correlate with how many people sympathize with their plight.
Although, I will say that this board seems to have an unusual amount of Nanami-lovers that I've seen elsewhere. And given her portrayal sometimes--i.e. kitten-killing--it seems a little off. But then again, we're shown very active weakness in Nanami a couple of times, while it has to be interpreted out of Touga. Showing weakness in some way helps to endear a character to the audience.

I think Nanami-love is an odd thing at the best of times, really. I personally adore the character because of her complexity -- despite her actions as a child, heinous as they were. But like you say, she has some reason for it; we humans like to search for reasons, for chaos without reason is a damn scary thing. But...yeah, actually, you were saying something else about the nastiness of Nanami when directed at Anthy, particularly in regards to the ballroom scene. Yes, I must admit, it's a horrible thing to do to someone, especially given Touga's focusing on Utena and not Anthy. I think, however, that even now -- even before Nanami meets Akio and realises this shining and bright older brother is eclipsing easily his demure and retiring younger sister -- Nanami is terrified of being what Anthy is. So why put Anthy out in the open like that? To prove her superiority. To prove they're different. It's, as I have said, a bastard of a thing to do...but Nanami, like most children, has only a limited perception of her actions as seen from someone else's viewpoint. It's not until the thing with the egg that Nanami starts to perceive another's needs as well as her own, which is yet another reason why a crazy eerie-ass Nanami-centric episode is actually one of the most telling of the lot.

A Day Without Me wrote:

Clarice wrote:

In that way, she actually has more in common with Saionji than one might think...because for all that Saionji has anger issues, they always seem to have some justification.

I would argue that Juri's aggressive actions do have a basis, though - Anthy giving her the rose in that manner is purposely done to remind her of Shiori - Anthy does a very good job of needling Juri here. As for her lashing out at Utena, this of course stems from Juri's irritation at Utena's attitude about princes and the like. I'm not trying to excuse Juri's violence, but it isn't like it's completely baseless.

Oh, no, no, I meant that Saionji and Juri have that justification in common -- Saionji tends only to lash out at people who have "hurt" him in some way (i.e. Touga, Anthy and Utena), and Juri's just the same. She doesn't lash out for no reason, and neither does Saionji. I also think that they shouldn't do it no matter what the provocation, but this is a show where girls turn into cows so well, you know. [shrugs] We can suspend reality for a while, eh?

A Day Without Me wrote:

Oh, haha, my bad - I misunderstood.

Heh, that's all right -- I can assure you that there are days where I talk completely out my ass and need to be kicked in the head. ...er, like most of the characters on this show, come to think of it. Which I suppose relates back to the topic in that the characters of the show -- both male and female -- need SOMEONE to do something to break them out of the cycles that they have trapped themselves in. Ruka's the only one who really makes an active attempt to do so (for Juri), but then the ultimate message of the show anyway is that although someone can show you the way, you need to walk the path yourself. I've always thought that Saionji and Touga were more or less doing that for one another, but...er, look, there I go, I've wandered off the path and got lost myself there. Dammit.