satyreyes wrote:

Dios -- the sack of flesh and blood -- has long since become Akio.

For some reason this made me think of the original (still Hebrew, I think) view of hell. No hellfire or demons poking you with a stick, just your own solitude and the death of your soul and the denial of God's light.

At any rate, poppycock on this silliness about it being an obvious thread. There's nothing obvious in Utena! I, for myself, did decide early on that the power was inside Anthy, but I'll take any Freudian sexual reference I can. (Anthy took his 'nobility' into her and kept it? Ouch.) However, I've always brushed over the goose with the golden eggs reference since I did not know they CUT THE GOOSE OPEN. (I suck at the fairy tales and stuff.) You are absolutely right in that this is about a truckload of talking about Anthy, I think I'm going to be rewatching that scene soon to see whether it's deliberate. (Certainly wouldn't be the first time Akio's done that...)

I wonder, you say she sealed him away and so had to seal herself away, but if she was released in the end, what happened to Dios' nobility? Does she continue to keep it somehow, or did it get released and just fizzled out into the atmosphere for being unable to find an appropriate place to hold itself? Did it go into Utena? I'm assuming it doesn't return to Akio since he's still Akio when Anthy leaves, and that's a very poetic point the series makes. Would seem kinda cheap to give him Dios' nobility for free after all that. But then again, Akio wouldn't much like it now.

Also poppycock on this "Even Saionji knows"! Saionji's the one no one pays enough attention to. (Including Saionji.) There's a lot he knows intuitively that the rest of the cast ends up stumbling around and never finding.

satyreyes wrote:

If Dios -- the prince -- still existed inside Anthy, the so-called Sword of Dios would be the prince's sword Akio needs to open the coffin and revolutionize the world.  There would be no need for him to mold someone else into a prince so that he could use their sword instead of Dios's.

I'm not thinking that Dios as a personality is inside of Anthy. The aspect of him that, combined with what Akio has going on, creates Dios is sealed inside Anthy. The sword of Dios is part of his power, but she doesn't let out the power to revolutionize the world through the sword. It's just a taste. Since Anthy can power up the sword on command, it's clear she doesn't naturally even do that much without being commanded.

Akio could try to regain Dios's power with the sword of Dios, it's possible he tried doing that first. It's a pretty big oversight for him to try other prince's swords without checking if the sword of Dios could solve his problem on the outset. ("Another failure." And all that.) He might have battered on the door with the sword of Dios enough for the sword to shatter, then simply stuck the pieces back into Anthy for them to reform. But it's the intent that matters, not the sword. Utena's sword breaks in Akio's grip, but Utena is able to open the coffin that holds Anthy's heart with her bare hands and determination. Because Akio is trying to get the power of Dios and it's not where he thinks it is.

I do agree with everything else you say, I just don't think it contradicts the former thought.

Giovanna wrote:

I wonder, you say she sealed him away and so had to seal herself away, but if she was released in the end, what happened to Dios' nobility? Does she continue to keep it somehow, or did it get released and just fizzled out into the atmosphere for being unable to find an appropriate place to hold itself? Did it go into Utena? I'm assuming it doesn't return to Akio since he's still Akio when Anthy leaves, and that's a very poetic point the series makes. Would seem kinda cheap to give him Dios' nobility for free after all that. But then again, Akio wouldn't much like it now.

I should rewatch the last episode before tackling this, but going on memory my line of thought is something like:

Utena opens the coffin and reunites the sealed portion of Anthy's heart with the rest of her body. This sticks all of Anthy into her coffin (Ohtori itself, but now able to leave if she chooses) and the swords of hate lose their designated pin cushion. Just before all that, (I think) we see Dios getting up on his horse, facing away from Utena and kind of moseying off. I'm trying to remember... where did the sword of Dios go after Anthy stabs Utena with it? Akio's not holding on to it, is he? Anyway, it's been suggested that Utena has taken Dios's place as The Prince, (which allows her to save Anthy) so it's possible that the power of Dios goes into Utena after she frees Anthy. When Anthy falls away the swords of hate stop and then focus directly on Utena. Judging for Akio's attitude later, he seems to have been completely unscathed by the swords, whereas Utena has vanished from the campus. That seems to me as if Utena took on the power of the prince. Anthy's surity that Utena is out there in the real world, making it likely the swords of hate didn't attempt to kill her. (Utena, that is.)

So, to summarize. Utena either gains the power of Dios or achieves an equal power to Dios on her own. The swords of hate aren't easily quelled, but they are put to rest as a new cycle (or revolution, if you will) in the story of The Prince begins. Akio believes Utena's actions were inconsequential because he still doesn't see the link between Anthy's feelings and Dios's power. At least until Anthy walks out on him.

(As for the manga, I've not read it. But if it makes sense then where's the fun of interpretation? )

I think that Dios died at the end of the series. He was only a hair's breadth from dying when Anthy sealed him away, and Utena's rescuing Anthy and becoming the new Prince allowed him to die, which was the only way he'd ever get any rest. His riding off into the sunset was symbolic of the fact that he was finally able to leave the cycle behind.

Ragnarok wrote:

If Dios -- the prince -- still existed inside Anthy, the so-called Sword of Dios would be the prince's sword Akio needs to open the coffin and revolutionize the world.  There would be no need for him to mold someone else into a prince so that he could use their sword instead of Dios's.

I'm not thinking that Dios as a personality is inside of Anthy. The aspect of him that, combined with what Akio has going on, creates Dios is sealed inside Anthy. The sword of Dios is part of his power, but she doesn't let out the power to revolutionize the world through the sword. It's just a taste. Since Anthy can power up the sword on command, it's clear she doesn't naturally even do that much without being commanded.

Akio could try to regain Dios's power with the sword of Dios, it's possible he tried doing that first. It's a pretty big oversight for him to try other prince's swords without checking if the sword of Dios could solve his problem on the outset. ("Another failure." And all that.) He might have battered on the door with the sword of Dios enough for the sword to shatter, then simply stuck the pieces back into Anthy for them to reform. But it's the intent that matters, not the sword. Utena's sword breaks in Akio's grip, but Utena is able to open the coffin that holds Anthy's heart with her bare hands and determination. Because Akio is trying to get the power of Dios and it's not where he thinks it is.

I do agree with everything else you say, I just don't think it contradicts the former thought.

Akio would never have the heart to open the door with the Sword of Dios as the swords of hate would come rushing at him. As he says himself, "She takes the sword of the Prince and bears the hate of humanities milllion swords..." Or something... to my poor dub's effect. That's the primary purpose of forging a Prince's Sword. Oy.. sorry about the screwed up quote, I just woke up.

Xu Yuan wrote:

Akio would never have the heart to open the door with the Sword of Dios as the swords of hate would come rushing at him. As he says himself, "She takes the sword of the Prince and bears the hate of humanities milllion swords..." Or something... to my poor dub's effect. That's the primary purpose of forging a Prince's Sword. Oy.. sorry about the screwed up quote, I just woke up.

Oh yes! I forgot that Anthy's holding the sword of Dios while she gets impaled. That's where it went.

Akio is trying to open the door with Utena's sword, though. The swords of hate don't care about what else is happening as long as they've got Anthy to stab. Akio believes Utena's soul sword may be the key to unlocking the power of Dios, which is his goal. He doesn't realize that (theoretically) the power of Dios and Anthy's sealed heart are linked and one can't be had without the other. When Utena's sword breaks he gives up and has himself a drink, but that wasn't his goal. He chalks it up to another failure and maybe next time will be the lucky number. Then Utena goes and shows him how it's done.

Oh he's defintely not pleased when he looks up to see Utena pulling open Anthy's casket. There's a huge change in his attitude when the gate to Dios turns into the casket of Anthy. If he thought there was a chance of Utena doing what she did, he wouldn't even have let her try. She was in no state to stop him if he dragged her away.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Um, sorry, once I got started I couldn't stop...

You're not the only one around here who does that. I sure hope it's not a bad thing.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Dios was a Prince who saved all the girls of the world whenever they needed a Prince.  He  had a sister who was stuck in limbo, as she was his sister he couldn't be her Prince.  She  had no one to rescue her.  Eventually all this constant rescuing makes Dios exhausted  (why?).  His sister tells him she'll take care of him and goes outside to face the world and  tells them that she is not going to let Dios out.  It's noteable to me that humanity had  become an angry mob even before this point.  The enraged crowd stabs her "to death."  When  Dios sees what they have done, he is grief-striken that his sister has sacrificed herself  for him.  He loses any desire to help humanity and becomes Akio.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Some, at least, of Dios's power (as in the movie)--maybe even the most important part--came  from Anthy.  Anthy presumably needed someone, a Prince, and since her brother couldn't be  it, she began to resent him and humanity.  Her power stopped supporting his.  His duties  became exhausting rather than easy.  Out of both concern and selfishness, she "locks him  away" by telling humanity that she's not going to let him out.  We know he's sick, but they  probably don't.  They label her a witch and stab her.  She's a goddess, so she can't die.   The look on her face shows she didn't expect it.  She, too, loses any faith in humanity.   This and her now-eternal torment as "the witch", being constantly impaled, cause her  deliberately lock away most of herself, in order to truly become the witch she is called.

If, even before Dios became Akio, Anthy was the source of some of Dios's power, it makes sense that Dios would eventually become exhausted as Anthy would care less and less about his saving the princesses of the world as she knows he can't do the same for her. She'd lend him less power until finally shutting him off completely, just before she's stabbed by the mob.

It's an interestng way of looking at it.

Coco Melancholy wrote:

then she done the unthinkable, she sealed he's soul sword inside herself, she told herself she didn't need a heart, as long as she had he's.

It was his nobility, his purity that was his true weapon against injustice.

The prince was inflamed with rage, all that was left of he's original self was the sword of he's soul which she had drawn from him that day, and sealed within herself, the soul that possessed it forever lurking wherever she roamed. The empty husk grew a new soul, a angry bitter soul, and that angry bitter soul turned the body of her beautiful Dios, into an angry bitter man.

You know, with castration anxiety like that it's no surprise how large he made his tower...

Glad you like the thread, though it's funny that after two years and two months I confused myself again in the Swords of Hate thread.

Last edited by Ragnarok (01-12-2009 06:44:06 PM)

I would have to say I agree with the idea of Anthy sealing away part of herself [into the coffin] when she sealed Dios' power away. As can be seen in real live relationships, often people become so scared by their experiences, they push their true nature into the background, put on their emotional armor and try not to look back.

This can be seen in many of the cast. Juri pretends not to care, Saonji pretends he's not an emo-kid, Wakaba pretends she's ok being the wingman, etc. Considering the frustration and pain of Anthy's eternal torment [both from fellow students & her brother], it's no wonder she's got part of her heart locked up. For anyone who's done something even remotely similar with a part of their soul, they know how it feels to be beset to open up. Akio is after the power of Dios. I agree that he's looking for the loophole. He doesn't want the prince's office hours, but he still wants to be one. Anthy provides a receptical for the Dios Soul Sword, but Dios' own heart was broken back then. She saved him & he couldn't rescue her (or care for himself). Dios' sword is probably as ineffective as all the others, because the soul swords represent the hearts of people who [like Anthy] are closed off. Everyone's in the game for selfish reasons...except for Utena in those final moments.

She's been stabbed in the back by the very person she was trying to rescue. Anthy [still wearing her armor] perhaps fears that Utena will be the one to open the door. Perhaps it's another of Anthy's tests. What friend could still persist after being literally stabbed in the back? Yet, Utena shows Anthy [and likewise Akio] what a true prince would do for her. A prince would persist, would tear down all the defenses just to reach the true nature lying hidden away.

Perhaps in the end Anthy retains the power of Dios in herself. Akio clearly doesn't have it. He's still deceiving himself about everything. While Utena may have become the prince (and gone off to rescue princesses round the world) she voices doubt about her success at saving Anthy. In the end, Anthy has to save herself. Utena shows her acceptance, but Anthy must ultimately choose to leave on her own. She must, in a way, rescue herself. Perhaps she retains the power of revolution, and carries part of it with her as she leaves Ohtori for good? Hard to say.

Last edited by StarlightArcher (01-15-2009 01:59:22 PM)

End of the Tour wrote:

Wow.  I have absolutely nothing to add...

ditto. this should be formed into sections and put up into the analysis part of the website.