As an ultimate fan of Nanami, I'd love to see her fighting once more with her two blades. And it would really please me to no end if she had a duel with Miki. He is very skilled, but as Juri said, his attacks are very gentle and calm. Nanami's swiftness and passion, versus Miki's precision and calm. I'm soooo curious, who would have won the duel...

Razara wrote:

If the Black Rose duelists count, then what I wonder is whether the Black Rose duelists have a better chance again Utena than the regular duelists do.

Mikage: "But they've already lost their duels. The weak-hearted fools."

Mamiya: "There are few people who are able to freely use their own hearts. This is especially true of young people. It would be better to entrust the swords of their hearts to others. That may result in the creation of strong duelists."

That's a good point. I didn't remember these words, what episode do they belong?
In my opinion, if the Black Rose duelist are strong hearted, that's because something is pulling them to duel. They are not free at all, nor they are pure. That would be a bad predisposition on getting Dios favour.

Razara wrote:

If the Black Rose duelists count, then what I wonder is whether the Black Rose duelists have a better chance again Utena than the regular duelists do.

Mikage: "But they've already lost their duels. The weak-hearted fools."

Mamiya: "There are few people who are able to freely use their own hearts. This is especially true of young people. It would be better to entrust the swords of their hearts to others. That may result in the creation of strong duelists."

This is another reason why I favor Juri as the best fighter.  Several people on this thread have stated the opinion that Juri isn't really that into her fencing, and is only going through the motions.  She is going through the motions, but why?  When Ruka asks her that very question, all she says is "I hit a wall."  He doesn't pursue the matter, and the line seems like a throw-away, but in this show, nothing is that simple.  What wall did she hit, exactly?  Shiori.  That's what's holding Juri back and preventing her from showing her true power as a fighter.  In all of the duels except Akio's, Juri is the only one who comes close to defeating Utena on ability.  In fact, Utena is unable to defeat Juri, the first match is decided my a miracle, or an accident, as the case may be, but definitely not by swordsmanship (swordswomanship?), where Juri is clearly superior.  The second duel is closer, the locket was a very close hit, but Juri's emotional load was also heavier that time, and it's possible that Utena had improved.

Everyone claims that Ruka is better...except Ruka himself, who sees hidden potential in her.  Granted he's got his own narrative, he's also a fencing master, and might be expected to have good judgement on such matters.  I don't think Ruka was wrong.  I think that this is one more reason why he was so desperate to "free" Juri.  Certainly he was in love with her, but he wanted to see her true potential as a fencer as well.  After all, the first thing he does when he gets back is to challenge her to a pass without revealing his identity first.

After Juri, I'd go with Ruka, Miki, Touga, Saionji, Nanami.  Miki also doesn't seem to need tricks to feel confident, which is why I rank him above Touga.  The rest is kind of obvious.

EDIT: And I'd definitely like to see Juri duel Touga, just to see her him.

Last edited by Stormcrow (05-19-2007 04:10:25 PM)

Heh, Touga gets underranked again. I rate him a bit higher because in the show they state that Saionji is all kinds of awesome at the kendo tournaments, and Touga is at the very least a fair match for him. By no means are any of them bad at the swordfighting, but I see Saionji as being the better fighter than Miki. Touga is right near Saionji in skill, and we're given the impression that Touga can beat him a good chunk of the time, but we're not really shown how or whether it's through manipulation. Whether he's actually slightly better, slightly worse, or just a match is basically going to depend on your opinion of him.

It's because of that tournament reference that I think Saionji is a match for Miki in technical skills. The series scripts say that it's a local tournament, which doesn't sound terribly impressive, but as angelicreation pointed out, they're talking local Tokyo area, where the population guarantees that the competition would be very stiff. Basically, if Miki is Olympic level, I see Saionji as being at that level as well. The reason Saionji and Miki aren't tied is because Saionji is more aggressive than Miki, which is generally going to make a better fighter.

And a short note on Ruka and Juri: Ruka outclasses Juri because Juri stopped trying ('hit a wall'). At least that's how I see it.

So my list goes more like Ruka, Juri, Saionji, Touga, Miki, Nanami, or if I'm feeling generous, swap Touga and Saionji's positions. Nanami is definitely last, though.

I didn't mean that Ruka would win because of his skill, but only if it were a contest of his Dios would like the most. Juri far greater skill than Ruka, and he said so himself.

brian wrote:

It's probably not about skill. The best duellist was best at shaking Utena's faith in herself.

This is true. It would have been true, I think, regardless of the victor at the time. It's really splitting hairs to debate who the best fighter is, when we're repeatedly told how awesome the various duelists are at their style of choice. (Except Nanami, who was damn good for that she doesn't seem to be officially practicing.) The advantage goes to the one who attacks the soul, not the sword. I don't recall where, but it's said outright that the winner of the duel will have the strongest spirit or something to that effect, not that they would be the best fighter. Touga is the only one that attacks Utena psychologically. Mikage does, but I don't think it was quite deliberate, or at least that it was part of an attempt to win. Saionji and Wakaba both shake her, but not because it's part of their strategy or because they're remotely aware it should be. Which in Saionji's case, is pretty interesting, given he seems otherwise to know better than to think it's about skill. Then again, Saionji might emphasize skill out of his own poor self-esteem, he wouldn't think he had a chance at all if the victor won by strength of anything but skillful fury.

Haha, yeah make it about Dios and Touga goes right to the back of the line.

Giovanna wrote:

Haha, yeah make it about Dios and Touga goes right to the back of the line.

Touga's totally on the short bus when it comes to things like 'selflessness' and 'being nice'.

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

I've love to see the normal duelists vs. the black rose duelists duels, but don't the black rose duelists have to draw the normal duelists' swords?

Kanae vs....Akio? Anthy? Her mom? Either way, she loses.
Kozue vs Miki - Miki might have skill but he's timid, and Kozue brings it out in him.
Shiori vs Juri - This one's hard for me to call, it depends entirely on whether Juri gets a hold of herself at some point.
Tsuwabuki vs Nanami - They're about an even match, except Nanami has a slight experience advantage and can probably belittle him into submission.
Wakaba vs Saionji - We've seen what confusion does to Saionji in the arena. Wakaba showing up would throw him for a loop that would lead to stuttering, staring, and losing. If he knows he's fighting her beforehand, though, he'll win.
Keiko vs Touga - Touga unzips pants, wins. If, for some reason, he actually fights at all, he'll still win.

...where does Mikage's sword come from, now that I think of it?

Yasha wrote:

Touga's totally on the short bus when it comes to things like 'selflessness' and 'being nice'.

And Akio's the bus driver.

Edit: VVVV You're just saying that because I mentioned Touga undressing being a good way to win him a duel.

Last edited by Giovanna (05-19-2007 07:37:48 PM)

Giovanna wrote:

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

I've love to see the normal duelists vs. the black rose duelists duels, but don't the black rose duelists have to draw the normal duelists' swords?

Kanae vs....Akio? Anthy? Her mom? Either way, she loses.
Kozue vs Miki - Miki might have skill but he's timid, and Kozue brings it out in him.
Shiori vs Juri - This one's hard for me to call, it depends entirely on whether Juri gets a hold of herself at some point.
Tsuwabuki vs Nanami - They're about an even match, except Nanami has a slight experience advantage and can probably belittle him into submission.
Wakaba vs Saionji - We've seen what confusion does to Saionji in the arena. Wakaba showing up would throw him for a loop that would lead to stuttering, staring, and losing. If he knows he's fighting her beforehand, though, he'll win.
Keiko vs Touga - Touga unzips pants, wins. If, for some reason, he actually fights at all, he'll still win.

...where does Mikage's sword come from, now that I think of it?

Yasha wrote:

Touga's totally on the short bus when it comes to things like 'selflessness' and 'being nice'.

And Akio's the bus driver.

Edit: VVVV You're just saying that because I mentioned Touga undressing being a good way to win him a duel.

Why are certain names bolded? O:

Miki and Kozue - your description for their duel sounds almost erotic. Good job.
Shiori and Juri - .. personally, I think Shiori would pwn Juri just because it's Shiori, Juri's ultimate weakness. Unless it was after the Ruka episodes, of course, then Juri might win.
Keiko and Touga - .. yep, pretty much.

Yasha wrote:

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

Why are certain names bolded? O:

They're the ones who would win.

..wow, I'm ditzy. I was confused because neither Shiori or Juri was bolded too, but she said she wasn't sure about that one, so yeah.

I have one reason why I would pic Juri; all the "rouge" duelists fight exactly the same way as she does.

Honestly watch Mikage, Ruka, and Chigusa in motion (you would need to seen Chigusa stuff via AMVs mostly) and they do at least the "I laugh as I barely dodge your swing at my nose" thing.Well Ruka and Chigusa at least. In production sketches in the gallery there's comparison sketches of Mikage preping to lunge exactly like Juri. Ok sure it probably more cheap production than anything and all three seem to be fencers but so is Miki. Note that there's a clear difference in his *poke poke* technique and his fellow national competing captian.

PS Yes I know proper term for Miki's poking is thrusting and more affective with the type of sword he's using. It was just more amusing and besides I know how the people here think.