I think it's almost sad that viewers would expect maturity and reason from a five-year-old.

Frosty wrote:

I love Nanami as well! My favorite Nanami-centric episode would be the one with her little egg. I read somewhere, I think it was alt.fan.utena, that some think Chuchu was *IN* the egg the entire time. The egg is broken, and Chuchu returns. He was gone the entire time. Interesting theory, eh?

I wasn't surprised when Nanami shoved Touga away, because of her reaction to seeing Akio & Anthy... it seemed to me that she saw a picture of what could have been her & Touga. She was seeing what she wanted, and realized that she did not want it that way. Yeah, she wanted to be the closest person to Touga, or a special person. The relationship as his sister gave that to her, but would (normally) take away her ability to screw him. So, the blood type show said to me that she wanted the sister position, and she probably did not consider whether that meant sex or no, considering her age. All the ways she approaches Touga, are sexual. The way she vamps over that table to tell him someone is trying to kill her, she was coming on to him... but probably too young to realize what that entailed. Again, when Anthy & Akio showed her what was always lingering in the back of her mind, she recoiled and re-evaluated what she did want. And it wasn't sex with Touga (AFTER that point), it seems.

I don't really believe Nanami was ever consciously sexual in the way she dealt with her brother -- it may be that she was to some degree mimicking the behaviour of thr girls who DID have his attention (fleeting as it usually was), but then I would doubt that given Nanami's less-than-high opinion of them ("troublesome insects!"). To be honest, even though someone older could misintepret her actions as being flirtatious, I think they were just childishly bold. Nanami demonstrated in Nanami's Egg a rather pitiful lack of sexual awareness/education, and therefore I would sincerely doubt she would consciously do anything sexually-minded towards her brother. Which reminds me, really; I'm sitting here watching Her Tragedy for a completely different reason, and of course that infamous shower scene has popped up.

Now, usually I went with the assumption that Nanami was at least somewhat attracted to her brother -- conscious or not -- but watching it this time I was struck by the earlier exchange where Touga asks if Nanami wants to join him in the shower, and then says: "Only joking." Nanami is embarrassed, and then retreats to her room to look at photographs of their childhood. She notes that they used to share everything, from meals to bed to bath. She then slips into the bathroom to watch her brother, who being aware of her presense, sexes it up something chronic. One could take this as meaning Nanami has a sexual attraction to her brother, but then I thought...no, it's more emphasising the chasm between brother and sister. Nanami, who is after all only thirteen years old and only on the verge of adolescence, is presented with her brother as a grown-up and sexualised figure in a setting that used to be entirely innocent. A setting they used to share. I think it just shows how far apart they are, and Nanami's subsequent filching of her brother's mobile suggests that although she can't be close to her brother in that way she doesn't intend to let all those slutty girls do it in her place. I think this is why she shoves him away later -- because she never intended to be his sister in any way but blood. Hence why she freaks out when she thinks they DON'T share the same blood...not to mention the fact that when Touga does make a move on her she believes they aren't related. But she still refuses him.

I love Nanami as a character; she's on the cusp of two worlds -- even more so than Utena, who does cross from one to the other...and who, according to rumour, has "all kinds of experience...!" -- and by the end, she still hasn't really crossed over. But despite that, she seems to have more insight into their world and its limitations than do the others (save Saionji). Yay Nanami!

Frosty wrote:

Nice way to articulate Nanami's true motivations. I read it all, and I agree! Nanami wasn't ever consciously aware of her sexual come-ons...and I probably interpret them that way because I'm a sexually active person and have been for years. I wish I caught the show before I lost my virginity, I wonder what sexual awareness of yourself does to your interpretation of the show. Probably not much to people who can separate themselves and have an objective viewpoint. However, Utena really lends itself to self-projection I read someone say somewhere, it certainly does.

That makes me wonder, too; I mean, I wasn't sexually active when I started watching the series but I read enough porn...er, erotica, to see the sex in the show very easily and without much in the way of ZOMG WTF WHY IS THERE ALL THIS SEX IN A KID'S SHOW?! (...not that I ever really thought/think of it as a "kid's" show anyway...but you know what some people are like about animation). I also think I myself viewed Nanami's actions as somewhat sexualised in the beginning (particularly with the climbing all over the table thing) because almost every other sister in the show DOES demonstrate sexualised behaviour towards their brother. [coughsanthycoughskaoru] I mean, even characters in the show see it this way -- see Utena saying to her that "[Nanami is] the only one like that!" in reference to her unnatural fixation on her brother (the hilarious irony being, of course, that Utena really only notices this because of how loving and fraternal and innocent Anthy and Akio were being to each other over the shaved ice earlier that afternoon...). Only Nanami sees it as trying to preserve her precious memory, which is that of her childhood with her brother. The presence of anyone else in their lives ruins the illusion, and Nanami smarts at their interference...particularly that of the girls who crowd around him, because she's only just realising her brother has needs that she can not -- and most certainly does not want to -- fulfil.

The other irony in this is that Nanami displays affection towards Saionji -- or at least a comfortable familiarity in that she is the only one who is heard to call him "Kyouichi," and that she DARES to sucker punch him over an egg (...if you believe anyone else would do this -- or that Saionji wouldn't immediately retaliate if they tried -- I'd like to hear your theory ). In this I figure it is because they knew each other as children and "Kyouichi" was a part of her idyllic childhood with her brother, hence she doesn't mind his continued presence in their lives. And the irony is, of course, that half the time Touga and Saionji are barely on speaking terms.

Frosty wrote:

My most favorite subject: how the character's future would have been changed by the things they experienced. I wonder what each one has forgotten & remembered, concerning the duel-time at Ohtori. For certain, Touga's influence on Nanami won't be forgotten...

I would think that she'd end up turning into an attention-starved love-craving person, with whoever she would find in the future. But, judging from how she speaks to Utena before the final duel... it looks like she could just as easily, go the opposite-of-clingy route and treat someone she cared for disdainfully, to keep herself a safe distance apart.

I tend to think she'd go the distance route -- in some ways, it has almost been like sexual abuse to her (and I suppose you could make a good argument for the fact that she WAS sexually abused, but then...er, I think almost everyone was, in some shape or form). Given her haughty personality, and her sense of being "better" than others, I would think she'd convince herself that no-one is good enough for her and this is why she remains alone and above them all, when really it is that she is too scared of intimacy to let anyone in. It could also be argued as an issue of abandonment, I guess.

Sorry to necro, but..

Animals don't like Nanami, and she doesn't like animals. Do you think it is because of how she tried to plant them on Anthy, and then since animals seem to like Anthy and vice-versa, she plays jokes on Nanami with animals?

Or maybe animals have never liked Nanami since she killed that kitten, and they can sense it?

Hiraku wrote:

You know, I've always felt that the animals are out to get her. Maybe it IS Karma coming back to bite her in the ass for drowning that kitten. There was also saying that the animals stampede is a comical version of Anthy being penetrated by swords, thereby making Anthy/Nanami parallel/antiparallel.
Both tried to protect someone important to them (onii-sama), both killed something to do so (killed Dios/kitten), and both pissed off a crowd for doing so (sword/animal stampede)

Does that mean that Nanami will one day become a witch herself and seal Touga(Winter bud) away, making him into a phantom while she becomes a self imposed slave to Touga's new counterpart Natsukusa(Summer Grass) where he tries to regain the power of Touga while Nanami becomes the Rose Bride as she endures the 1,000,000 Elephants of human hatred? OH MY!

Tamago wrote:

Hiraku wrote:

You know, I've always felt that the animals are out to get her. Maybe it IS Karma coming back to bite her in the ass for drowning that kitten. There was also saying that the animals stampede is a comical version of Anthy being penetrated by swords, thereby making Anthy/Nanami parallel/antiparallel.
Both tried to protect someone important to them (onii-sama), both killed something to do so (killed Dios/kitten), and both pissed off a crowd for doing so (sword/animal stampede)

Does that mean that Nanami will one day become a witch herself and seal Touga(Winter bud) away, making him into a phantom while she becomes a self imposed slave to Touga's new counterpart Natsukusa(Summer Grass) where he tries to regain the power of Touga while Nanami becomes the Rose Bride as she endures the 1,000,000 Elephants of human hatred? OH MY!

That COULD have happened if Nanami didn't run into Akio and Anthy doing the nasty on one of her midnight trips to the bathroom<-That's gonna leave a scar in her brain.
Sometimes it would've been better if she could just hold it in.
Although... I never thought of it that way! NOW I'm curious to see Nanami in a Rose Bride dress! And who's her true prince gonna be? Hachihana? (Eight Flowers as opposed to Seven Nuts) I'm not creative with names...

Last edited by Hiraku (04-13-2007 03:41:00 AM)

Oooh, thanks for bumping.



I love that Nanami doesn't just accept the whole 'gee, I'm not special so I'ma go whine about it an a dark corner' thing. She's going to be special means she's going to be special. No moaning and bitching about the unfairness of it all, she just gets up and deals with it. I mean, Wakaba proves in the Saionji x Wakaba episode that she has all the potential to be special but she she thinks she doesn't and that she can't. At the time Touga went to kiss Nanami, to be honest I forget what my own reaction was, I was more 'ZOMG he's trying to kiss her!?' but I don't think I was too surprised. And I adore that she doesn't let herself become less 'special' when Touga does that to her, as Wakaba does when Saionji leaves her, but whups her friends and gets back in stride. I get a tad annoyed at the Nanami filler episodes, however, because they make people not take Nanami seriously and play her off as comic relief. She's a force to be reckoned with.

brian wrote:

The swords/animals parallel is really interesting.

Perhaps they hate each other because they each recognize themselves in the other.

Perhaps all animals can be Anthy's "familiars", because she is Queen of Nature. Also since cows are sacred in India perhaps Nanami is being honored. Anyway she was doubtless a very special cow, a singular cow, a cow above all other cows.

It is the reason Nanami demanded her final duel, "I'm nothing like her!" I don't know if Anthy thinks the same way. I would think that being the horrible reality that she represents, she would resign to the idea that she and Nanami (and even Shiori) are very much alike.
True, not a lot of cows could give birth to monkeys in an egg.
I don't know if the Anime Anthy and the Movie Anthy are supposed to share any similarity, but the Movie Anthy herself has mocked Utena openly at least two times. The two lines that Utena said in the movie. One to Wakaba, "I think we'll suit each other very well." Anthy said the same thing to Utena, which carries a different, creepy tone. The other about, "It's important to capture the other's true nature. Can't we just forget about all the secrets and Rose Bride?" And then Anthy makes Utena model nude to poke fun of her proposal of "let's be honest to each other"
Carrying that mentality to the anime, Anthy would also be considered as making fun of Nanami's desire to be special. She is the only cow wearing the royal cowbell, after all

Last edited by Hiraku (04-13-2007 09:49:11 PM)

brian wrote:

Those are really cool parallels. Ironically Anthy is a more effective and (almost) compassionate educator than Akio. Nanami at least is a better person when Anthy is through with her. I am not sure you could say that for anyone who falls into Akio's orbit.

I still feel bad for Kanae

Last edited by Hiraku (04-14-2007 12:23:05 AM)

Coco Melancholy wrote:

LOADS OF NANAMI GOODNESS!

Quoted for the sheer truth of it.

Very Poptart worthy!

HELL YEAH! You get the Prize of Cowbell Poptart from me . It's awesome to see a Nanami and Tsuwabuki fan

Hiraku wrote:

Although... I never thought of it that way! NOW I'm curious to see Nanami in a Rose Bride dress! And who's her true prince gonna be? Hachihana? (Eight Flowers as opposed to Seven Nuts) I'm not creative with names...

I think Nanami would be more likely to be one of those Scandinavian heroes -- the craftsmen's sons who are clever and earn their happy endings through careful trickery, and sometimes just return home when their tale is over.

(. . . and wouldn't it be 'Hachibana'?)

Xu Yuan wrote:

In the end though Nanami does appear to be the most noble of all of the Seitokai. Her reason for dueling is exactly the same reason that Utena dueled Touga back in episode 12. She wanted to regain and surpass herself. She had as much reason to win and conquer everything that kept her under as much as Utena did. But unfortunately that wasn't in Akio's plans, using her as bait for another duel leading towards revolution. Notice Nanami's style. It is exorbitantly different from her brother's, she fight's with power and an assassin's touch. If it weren't for the power of Dios, Utena would have easily been defeated by Nanami. Yet after the duel Utena doesn't even act as if it was a challenge. Though in my opinion Nanami fight's just as well as Juri or even "Enchanted Arena" Touga. Though I could go on and on about Nanami's suprebly vast improvement's that's not the point of this thread. Though it could be an interesting comparison.

I've often thought that if Utena weren't the victor, it would have probably gone to Nanami.  She has more episodes featuring her than any other Duelist and even runs the Council for 12 episodes.  She has her own recap episode! For a character who wasn't even in the manga, that's an unusual amount of focus.  She even manages to cut the rose from Utena's chest, albeit after the duel was over. 

I saw in another thread that some people consider Nanami to be mostly comic relief, but I tend to see it a bit differently.  Her tale is often comic, often melodramatic but she ultimately does have one of the darkest and longest character arcs in the series.