Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

Entire Post.

Yep.  Can't say it better myself.

Atropos wrote:

Although it would never have been allowed, I would've removed the duels from the second half of the show and instead go into explicit horror, as Akio eliminates all of the SC members one by one (not everyone who goes to the Ends of the World comes back...) and seduces Utena at the same time. It would really have emphasized how Akio and Anthy's years of imprisonment have completely desensitized them.

This is a fascinating idea.  The show you describe would have been a very different show, of course.  If there is a central tenet of horror it is that we are ultimately powerless in the face of a malevolent universe, while SKU puts the ideas of empowerment and agency front and center in just about every character's plot arc.  And if SKU has a one-sentence moral, it is that even an ordinary person can stand up to the universe.  We can change things for the better for ourselves, and we can help our friends do the same.  There's hope for everyone, except maybe Akio.  It's a very hopeful show.  'Swhy I love it.

But your version would also be an absolute blast to watch!  If the elements of horror were played like they would've been in a genuine horror show -- if a trip to the Ends of the World might be one-way, if brainwashing someone with a black rose wasn't a temporary condition, if we got to see the psychological stress on Utena and the Student Council as these fates befell their classmates -- yeah.  That's a show I would watch.

To be honest I don't actually get that creeped out while watching SKU, but there's definitely potential for horror there.

Atropos wrote:

^Surrealism just freaks me out...the shadow girl bits were the most haunting parts of the show for me, the first time I watched it.

I can see how unsettling it would be to live in such a world. Where you might never quite tell reality from illusion...

Is there such a thing as gross out horror? The incest alone could qualify it as that.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

As rotten as Saionji or Nanami could be, look fairly at what Anthy and Akio do to them, not from their pretend positions as picked on student and her winking big bro with the fancy job, but as magically-manipulative, world-controlling scary immortals. Elephants attack Nanami. That's elephants to attack a girl barely in her teens. Saio's an ass, yeah, but he's what, seventeen? Anthy is a helluva lot older, a helluva lot more powerful, and eggs him on, fully aware of his hang ups and paranoias about not measuring up, not being man enough, not being, simply, good enough. The kids at Ohtori never had a chance.

Anthy's a bitter girl but she rarely acts maliciously for no reason. Akio's the real one to be feared.

Riri-kins wrote:

Anthy's a bitter girl but she rarely acts maliciously for no reason. Akio's the real one to be feared.

To be very exact, neither of them act maliciously for "no reason", as the many malicious acts both committed in the show are shown executed for selfish, self-selring purpose (yes, I consider hurting others to empower one's own prince to be just as selfish as doing so to directly empower oneself).
The thing is that both will hurt people who'd done little to nothing wrong towards them if it further their goals (see what they did to Wakaba and little Tsuwabuki), so I'd say they're both evil-prone, and certainly worthy of the "horror-story-monster" status.

And let's not forget that Anthy will hurt even Utena - whom she actually cared for somewhat even before Ep 39 - to get what she wants.  Yes, many say Akio "made" her did it, but she is known making the choice herself to hurt someone meaningful to her for the sake of getting what she want herself (Dio's Power Awakening/Prince's Ressurection).  Compare that to Akio - shown caring for no one, thus feel little moral hangups about hurting everyone - and I'd say that Anthy's (willing to hurt even those she like out of selfishness) malevolence might possibly exceed even that of her "Devil" bro (who see all humans as merely "foolish lifeforms" as show in EP 38).

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

She's just shorter than her brother and better at making doe eyes.

Had the show portrayed Anthy always using "Mamiya's" ruthless expressions/mannerisms, I bet most fans will think differently of her even if her course of action remain unchanged.

P.S.  Am I the only one who thinks the entire BR Arc (Minus nanami fillers) fit the psycho-horror genre to a tee?

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (07-08-2013 12:21:19 PM)

satyreyes wrote:

I think DD has it right.  Even before you get into the mammals and the, uh, stabbing people in the back, Anthy is a very dangerous person and one to be feared.  If SKU is a horror movie, then Anthy is the kind neighbor who is sizing you up as a Satanic sacrifice.  Maybe she's not going to be the one who holds the dagger, but even if not, then she is the canny and willing tool of the person who will.  Or Anthy is the evil spirit who takes the form of a bound princess who will be eternally in your debt if you'll just remove these shackles.  Or, you know, she's the witch.  The reason SKU is such a good redemption story for Anthy is that she has a lot to redeem herself for!

Agreed with most of the post + how SKU really can be interpreted as "horror" in a way. 

SKU's ending showed Anthy seemingly  being on a direction towards redeem herself without showing the audience how she'd actually do it (she didn't even apologize to Wakaba/Tsuwabuki + many others she wronged prior to supposedly leaving), so it feels very "open-to-interpretation" cause a lot of what the audience expect is purposely not show.

That's very true, shutin, and I think in some ways that strengthens the connection between SKU and horror.  If Anthy had killed someone's kitten or pretended to be someone's lost love, then redemption might include an apology.  But how do you apologize to someone for subjecting them to supernatural torment and tempting them into a traumatic metaphysical dueling game?  Would most of Anthy's victims even understand what she was apologizing for?  That scene won't write, as they say.  At the end of a horror movie, if we luck into a happy ending and the ghosts are set at peace, they don't apologize to the protagonists; they just leave.  They have to.  What happened was unspeakable and beyond apology.  All they can do is move on.

Raven Nightshade wrote:

This is all sounding a bit Silent Hill-esque (the movies, specifically).

I'm into that.

Akio as Pyramid Head? Slowly chasing you around stairwells while you crap your pants because you can't kill him? Oh no, this smooth brother is gonna put on a nice suit and lure you into his office. There he will then don a bloody apron, tear the skin off your legs, bind your hands with it, and rape your fading body until he's coming in a corpse.

I've never thought it that way, with SKU as horror. I'd definitely say psychological horror. I once, as an experiment, watched the show but skipped episodes not directly building the plot that were there to lighten the mood. The lightheartedness is set apart in these convenient little spaces, and without them, the show is STUPID DARK AS BALLS. Seriously, try it.

The idea of people not coming back from EoTW is awesome, and it'd make for some wicked alt-universe fanfic. And it doesn't really change the characters involved a great deal, I don't think. Akio and Anthy (and Mikage as well) don't murder their pawns after use because it's pretty easy not to, and doesn't really benefit them at all. Also, it would be a little dark, even for this show. It doesn't take much nudging to push them into murder, though. If their journey to EoTW breaks them, like truly psychologically breaks them, they're probably more trouble than they're worth. Interesting twist there--Utena would think she's responsible for these deaths because battling her is the connection. Furthermore, even as a murderer I doubt A&A feel the need to pull the trigger themselves--what if after all these innocent bloodless duels, people start dropping when the rose is knocked from their chests? Utena would refuse to duel of course, but they'll keep coming. First it'll be a mistake, then an accident, then self-defense...

This is fun.

Nanami's big scene where she "stumbles(?)" on Akio and Anthy on that one special night has all the classic earmarks of horror.

Nobody has mentioned so far the incineration of 100 boys. What else can that be called except Moloch?

A lot of good points have been raised upthread.  Just adding my 2 cents on how I think Kanae's entire story line - starting from BR and going to EP 39 where she is notably absent - really reads like standard horror.

Atropos wrote:

Would you want these people to have the powers of life and death in their hands?

Arguably they already do, they just don't know it because they're caught up in the game that will ostensibly award them that power. And, that's why they'll never feel they have it. Most of the motives we are privy to fall into one of two camps (or overlap them), those who want something they already have and those who want something they can't even functionally define. Most of the duelists are seeking justification.

Atropos wrote:

Considering references in both themes and direction (the re-use of character animation in head-trip sequences) to NGE, I wonder if this was intentional on the part of Be-Papas - consider that Anno and Ikuhara are BFFs, and Hasegawa was an animator on Eva...

There's at least one recorded conversation with Anno and Ikuhara discussing the reuse of in animation, with Anno giving it as a reason he's tired of animation and Ikuhara embracing it for the ritual or familiar sense it encourages. But, there's also talent crossover between Eva and Utena, most notably Yoji Enokido. So, I'm sure there was some back and forth there, amongst the talent, if not explicitly to the show. There's also the fact both shows were intended in some ways as homages to "classic" anime, though a lot of those tropes potentially felt very new and innovative to audiences who hadn't experiences those older shows.