My inner fangirl screams "YES!"

Giovanna wrote:

The alternative then is wanting someone to save him. Why does the idea that Touga saved the girl in the coffin rub Saionji the wrong way? We have an answer to that even at face value, that Touga turned his back on Saionji and showed a stupid little girl something he wouldn't show Saionji. But perhaps it goes deeper. The hurt is magnified by the idea that Touga saved someone else, when Saionji, who is much closer to him, needs it just as much. It's not a difficult line of psychological logic here, and many, many people walk down this road. I wish someone would save me. -> I wish you would save me. -> Why didn't you save me? -> Why won't anyone save me?, and by the time you hit the last one, it's become aggression and violence in itself, hostility directed toward everyone else who didn't save you and yourself for needing that and not wanting to admit it.

This has to be one of my favourite analyses of Saionji's state of mind ever. I think you've struck why people (y'know...well...crazy folk like us) still like Saionji as a character when he does do cruel things that ought to repulse us (but then one has to remember I also like the characters of Mikage, Nanami and Ruka, who have this in common as well...ah, crap, now I want to do an essay on the cruelty/lack of empathy demonstrated by these characters as compared to one another, because obviously they all do it for different reasons, and not always consciously...damn this show, making me think again...).

[coughs]

Erhm, but yeah. Saionji takes out his frustration explosively and violently, but as you say...if we take into account your hypothesis, it's a reasonable progression. And although it sucks that nobody tried to yank him back from the path (TOUGA ARE YOU LISTENING) like you say below, the show's main theme is that while others can show you the path -- and even give you the means to walk/drive it -- you still need to do it yourself. Which is possibly why Akio's manipulations never truly worked in the end; he invited them into his car and drove them to the Ends of the World under the illusion it was their choice, but it wasn't. Hell, makes you even wonder if the whole flip over the windshield was to grant the power of the illusion that no-one was in control.

...er, but that's wandered a bit far from the point. Gomen gomen!

Giovanna wrote:

Life repeats itself! Again, someone is getting saved, and again Saionji is in the role of the monster that makes being saved necessary. At the same time he might be watching Touga and Anthy step in on Utena's behalf with envy at the situation, where someone is protected from the dangers of this world by another (when it's Anthy, fulfilling the role in her friendship with Utena that Touga never gave Saionji), but also it's not likely lost on him that he is the reason right then that Utena is being saved. He's become the violent home he grew up in, part of a cycle of violence that continues on and on, sometimes for generations in reality.

You know, that makes me understand a bit better his beheaviour immediately after his expulsion...and even his later behaviour with Wakaba. Saionji is one of the most perceptive characters in the series -- when he allows himself to be. He's seems to prefer the world in black and white, and it is not until the end that he accepts the fact that shades of grey aren't the exception, they're the norm...and they're not going to go away while you turn your back and look the other way. But yes, Saionji had to leave because of his expulsion -- but I think he would have left anyway. It's partly a matter of pride, I think (we'll go with the honour code so inherent to Japanese martial arts/combat), but I think he also hated what he'd become, as you say, and wanted to get away from it. He did stay, of course, but it was Wakaba who invited him...who was saving him in a way, I suppose. Was this a positive step for him or not? I am not sure, as both that and his later actions in betraying her for reinstatement do contradict what I think was running through his mind. But then why DID Saionji choose to come back? For one last try, even then? (Touga did have to bully him into it.) Or was he even then wanting to just be there when everything finally went down? I guess it depends on your intepretation of why Saionji duelled for that last time. I'm going with the "he was so shocked at what Touga was doing/Akio had done he lost his temper." And we know Saionji without a keel = bad news.

Oh, and I found it telling, the way Saionji gave Touga the diary. It sort of seems to me to be a "remember me as a lovesick fool, not as a crazy guy who sliced you up" kind of manouvre. Which...is not uncommon in abusers, I think. "I only do it because I love you!" (That's...always bothered me, that mindset.)

Giovanna wrote:

After these events, Saionji reappears in the Apocalypse Arc as Touga's running commentary. The conversations, which usually center around or relate more to Touga, betray the cracks in his cool and collected mask, and they also betray how few people can see them. (Saionji himself, and of course Akio.) Perhaps in watching Touga stumble over his own ambitions, try to save Utena only to have it blow up in his face, Saionji has come to understand through Touga a message we as viewers have pounded into our heads by the finale. No one can really save anyone else. Saionji can and does bitch and moan about what an idiot Touga's being, but he knows nothing he does will stop Touga from making the mistakes he has to make, and that nothing is learned by being saved anyway.

I like this, a lot. It also possibly says something about why Saionji acted as Touga's Rose Bride; he knew he wasn't going to be able to stop Touga, so instead of trying to stop him, he just stands by his side. United we stand...united they fall. Quite an interesting development of what was apparently never a real "friendship" during the series...at least not until the revolution, as such.

Giovanna wrote:

It shakes Saionji to find out that Touga didn't save the girl in the coffin. It must have brought the fantasy of being saved at all crashing down to realize who did, and that this grinning mischievous character in the driver's seat certainly doesn't appear to Saionji the type to save the girl out of the kindness of his heart. Saionji realizes both that his friend didn't quite betray him after all, and that the events he witnessed back then were not the genuine article.

I do wonder, though, if Saionji ever wondered "...if he didn't do it, why did he let me believe he did?" I mean, it was a passive act on Touga's part, sure (although as somebody so beautifull pointed out -- I think it was you, Gio -- Touga likes the illusion of everyone else doing the work, because if it goes wrong in their perception it's THEIR error and not his), but Saionji would still have every right to think that Touga had been an ass of a friend for doing that to him. But I think perhaps by the end of the series he'd come to accept Touga for what he was. I love that little coda with the duel and Nanami making tea. Hee.

There was something I was going to reply to with this, but I forgot. But the idea of Saionji wanting to be saved by Touga (and being his princess ;3 ) seems very right-on to me.

Maybe little Saionji just thought that opening a coffin with a little girl in it was creepy. But the way he wanted him and Touga to just leave her alone so quickly does seem like a good sign of an abusive family background. Abuse victims usually feel like that have to ignore the problem, or that it's their own fault and they deserve it and they just have to suck it up.

And Touga with his very adventurous, curious attitude, seems fitting for being raised in a rich family where he's given too much freedom.

We do know that Saionji thought that Touga showed Utena something eternal when she was little, and he definitely seemed jealous and hurt. The idea that he was also jealous because he wanted to be saved from something is very fitting, too. Maybe with the abusive family thing.

(Sorry if my response was rather repetitive. It's been a while since I've seen those episodes. )

brian wrote:

Don't take this the wrong way but I really don't understand the Saionji fan club.  First of all why always assume that he grew up in a physically abusive household?

A lot of his behavior is suggestive of prior abuse. I don't actually assume it was physical in nature, though it does kinda stand to reason by his violent nature, which...

brian wrote:

There is no evidence that he physically mistreats anyone else but her.

He sends Miki clear across the rose garden and attacks Utena with a katana, clearly meaning to cause rather serious injury. People also accuse him of being an especially dirty fighter, since he kicks Utena. I tend to think that's a restriction of using a two-handed weapon.

brian wrote:

It's plausible that he was a "good" kid from a "good" environment. Instead of being abusive perhaps his father was gone all the time and he was raised by his mother. He had a hard time cutting the apron strings. Well naturally red-blooded girls never want to have anything to do with little boys like that, they like the rough and tough sort so he chose that as his model.

He may have been a nerdish romantic who studied Kendo the way other nerds study chess or D&D.

His bad temper may stem from the bad luck he had with girls until he shaped up and became a cool, cruel stylish warrior-type. Then the fan-girls started swarming around him. That would corrupts anyone's soul.

Hey I like that. It's definitely another way to look at it! One character, several interpretations. I suppose the reason I've never processed this one is that when given the opportunity, it's so easy to see the characters as pairs. Saionji and Touga, I get the impression the series means for you to see them at the same time, that they're kinda a foil to each other, in which case that interpretation seems less...fitting? I suppose. I think it's entirely likely there is a romantic streak in Saionji, and if the girls didn't bash it in, no doubt Touga did. A true romantic watching that charade work? As for nerdy, I would agree and I think he is a bit of a nerd in any interpretation including mine.

brian wrote:

Which leads to another question, why assume that he's a virgin? Nerd or not most boys would take full advantage of the Rose Bride's favors. In the end even Miki would have.

It's part of Miki's character to see the evolution of his knowing what he wants from Anthy. And I don't think all of them would use Anthy that way. Touga didn't. As to Saionji's virginity, it's based on an idea the movie sealed for me. (One of the few uses I had for it.) Saionji's such a hostile character, it's hard to believe he's sexually active, or we'd have seen some indication of it either way involving his violent behavior. Just the slightest suggestion he would be sexually aggressive toward, say, Anthy. I tend to give the series credit in that it would have shown us that had it been there. Of course it's entirely possible he's not a virgin, though even in that case I would habitually call him one because he acts like one. At the very least it's quite clear sex isn't something he spends a lot of time doing.

brian wrote:

Anthy was a bottomless cup that gave no real satisfaction. Romanticism and rescue fantasy was not working, materialism and possession was not working, victory did not bring peace; sexual gratification was starting to pale, and Anthy was filling him with disgust; that alone would make anyone crazy.

Adjusted for my assuming he doesn't have sex with Anthy, this is exactly what went on there, I think. She definitely brings out the worst in him.

brian wrote:

Or perhaps he was just plain spoiled.

I don't know about this. When he's with Wakaba, he's very appreciative, genuinely so I think, and never assumes he'll get anything from her. He acts spoiled at Ohtori in that he thinks the world belongs to him, but it's quite clear how little he believes his own lie there. Nanami...now that's spoiled.

brian wrote:

Advance warning, I am not attempting to provide a coherent theory, I'm just being suggestive.

Don't take this the wrong way but I really don't understand the Saionji fan club.

Don't worry, I think most people don't understand it. He just has a couple very loud fans around here. And sucks to your coherent theories! It's great to see other ideas here, is the point of these threads! In another thread Clarice said a lot of the draw for her with Saionji was that you have to do some work to find him, the series doesn't give you much in the way of direct help. It's true and it's great but it leaves a lot of possibilities, only one of which yours truly is going to harp on.

I think you are misunderstanding a little, brian. I think what Gio was getting at was more that because Saionji is hostile, it drives away any outlet he has for sex aside from his hand. Who really wants to sleep with a guy that hostile? And why would he ever admit to someone that he wanted to sleep with them if doing so meant that he had to curry favor with that person to get laid? Anthy falls beyond either of these quarters, it's true, but I tend to agree with Gio that the show would have made some indication of it if it had happened. After all, when he spoke to Anthy!Utena about 'sharing their love' and we all thought he was gonna do something dirty, he brought out an exchange diary where he wrote fantasies about how he would conquer Utena to be with Anthy again instead. If nowhere else, that scene with Anthy!Utena would have been easy to slip even a kiss into-- but there isn't one. At all, through the entire series. Substituting romantic fantasies, no matter how ill-put, for sexual interaction of any kind doesn't strike me as the way someone in a sexual relationship would act.

brian wrote:

Perhaps I am simply misunderstanding but it sounds like you believe that aggression is caused by sexual frustration and that people who have all the sex they want are not aggressive or violent because of that.

Yasha pretty much covered this for me, but no, I don't believe that at all. Actually it's more the other direction added on top of what Yasha said. He's violent and I think it's, at that point in his development, something that could come out in his sexuality as a similarly violent and dominating impulse.

As it is, he's so rough around the edges that he'd scare off just about anyone that paid any attention to him, quite on purpose, subconsciously. It's one of the reasons I don't think he thought Wakaba was serious about him, had he sensed that, I suspect he'd have gone into OH GOD GET IT AWAY mode.

The diary I think is more of what I discussed in the body language thread, that Saionji seems to have a difficult time with understanding you don't combine affection and violence. If he understands that conflict, it's not enough to stop him. At the same time, you have to account for how far removed anything he and Anthy share is from real affection...

The funny thing is that the exchange diary is such an important key to Saionji, and yet its revealed in a "filler" episode. Just goes to show that you shouldn't miss the Nanami episodes .

Yasha wrote:

Oh yes, he's totally gullible. If you told him that gullible wasn't in the dictionary, he'd find the nearest dictionary to check.

Oh god, it's true.

Yasha wrote:

However, he is also perceptive, and between Gio and I, we've roughed out (not for sure, but as a general rule) that he tends to be gullible when his emotions are involved, and perceptive when he's distanced from the situation he is watching. Which falls right into line with what you've said; since his emotions are involved with Touga, he is very easily tricked by Touga, and the same goes for Anthy. Poor boy can't see what's right in front of him if either of those two are involved.

Yeah, like he's observationally farsighted. The moment it gets close, he doesn't know what's going on. Touga and Anthy are definitely sore spots, but he's also blind about Wakaba. I honestly think he had no idea, that if he understood she liked him at all, it wasn't at all in terms of how much she meant it.

Anthy...I wonder about. I think he understood what was going on better than he'd like to admit, and that it's part of the fuel that makes him so violent with her. Touga tends not so much to trick him, but set him off. Which I guess is the same thing but in my head there's a minor but important difference. When he's not in the process of being thrown for a loop, he knows it's something that could be done to him.

Yasha wrote:

Hysterical Woman wrote:

The funny thing is that the exchange diary is such an important key to Saionji, and yet its revealed in a "filler" episode. Just goes to show that you shouldn't miss the Nanami episodes .

Hell no. The filler episodes always contain important information. I guess they're Ikuhara and Saito's way of saying 'Yeah, we know you don't like sitting through this-- here, have an analysis bonanza.'

RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP RECAP AKIO AND UTENA HAVE SEX

HEY GUYZ WERE YOU PAYING ATTENTION?

brian wrote:

I re-watched a few of the earlier episodes you guys mentioned above and I just realized that Saoinji was actually quite gullible. In the manga his coffin was called assumption and gullibility and snap-judgment seems quite close to assumption. He is always fighting yesterday's war. Being repeatedly manipulated by Touga would explain a lot of what he is. And with Saoinji and Nanami to practice twisting around his finger Touga started becoming very manipulative early on.

I wasn't sure if the word 'assomption' really existed in French, so I dug out my Larousse and looked it up. It does indeed exist, but it means something completely different. Assomption is a religious term referring to Mary's ascent to Heaven after her death. This might be referring to the 'eternity' Saionji thought Touga showed Utena.