Giovanna wrote:

Well really it could be either one of them, or both at different times. It's Akio that wants the meeting between 'Dios' and a child Utena to happen, but he's not the one that gains from Dios' being there in the last episode, and I doubt he'd have put that particular set of words in Dios' mouth since he didn't want her to get up.

Also, the behavior you see from Dios perhaps supports that it's different siblings at different times. Dios in the flashback speaks from a position where he understands, and he's convincingly innocent but leading still. He..well...sounds like how Akio would portray him from his vantage point. There's even an emphasis made on his inability to do anything, and while that seems like a natural part of the conversation, he was yapping enough that had he wanted to dodge explaining that Dios was helpless, he could easily have done so. Dios in the last episode is more, hm...active? He protects Utena with no regard at all for Anthy, which I think is how Anthy would present him, since that's what she remembers vs. what Akio must fake (that he would save her).

It's morning and I'm getting yelled at by my boss which makes me want to punch his ugly face in, so this may be a bunch of nonsense.

Hmm, I had not thought of that before, that Akio wants Dios to meet child-Utena. Just to get another duelist a few years later? Or maybe to have someone more like Mikage lined up? I have always assumed Dios was more of a spirit remnant of the good part of him that isn't present in Akio but I'll have to think about that.

The part where Utena is running up to Anthy and Dios seems to be musing to himself (I don't think she can hear him) he says that the prince Anthy loves is no longer, that he is now Worlds End. The way he says that seems a bit bitter or disapproving like Dios doesn't like the way Akio turned out. Or a different interpretation could be that Dios is expressing Akio's bitterness at not having Dios' power.

Sorry about your boss.

Giovanna wrote:

Well really it could be either one of them, or both at different times. It's Akio that wants the meeting between 'Dios' and a child Utena to happen, but he's not the one that gains from Dios' being there in the last episode, and I doubt he'd have put that particular set of words in Dios' mouth since he didn't want her to get up.

Also, the behavior you see from Dios perhaps supports that it's different siblings at different times. Dios in the flashback speaks from a position where he understands, and he's convincingly innocent but leading still. He..well...sounds like how Akio would portray him from his vantage point. There's even an emphasis made on his inability to do anything, and while that seems like a natural part of the conversation, he was yapping enough that had he wanted to dodge explaining that Dios was helpless, he could easily have done so. Dios in the last episode is more, hm...active? He protects Utena with no regard at all for Anthy, which I think is how Anthy would present him, since that's what she remembers vs. what Akio must fake (that he would save her).

It's morning and I'm getting yelled at by my boss which makes me want to punch his ugly face in, so this may be a bunch of nonsense.

Yeah, I definitely think that the Dios little!Utena met was Akio, or Dios who changed into Akio. He said he was now End of The World and thus he couldn't save Anthy. (almost typed End of the Forums. XD; ) Interesting that little Utena kept telling Dios/Akio to save Anthy but he wouldn't, and then at the end of the anime she keeps telling Akio to save Anthy.

Akio, End of the World, still looks very much like Dios back then, though. I wonder how fast his appearence changed after that.

Dani wrote:

I'm certain that Dios is goading Utena when he says that it's okay if she doesn't save Anthy. He's prodding her to get back up by shaming her into doing so. Anthy might not believe it completely but that is Dios' role in that scene, to get Utena back on her feet. At this point I might even argue that, if Dios isn't real or just a manifestation, then in that scene, Utena herself might be thinking of what her prince might do in this situation, what Dios might say to her IF he were really there because when she slams her fist down and decides to get up, he has disappeared.

As for Anthy, I agree that over the final arc of the series, she is transferring her feelings for Dios to Utena. That idea is setup pretty well during the bedtime conversation they have when Utena tells Anthy she wishes Anthy would come to her with her problems and that they can be friends that help each other. There is a quick shot of Anthy embracing Dios which seems to indicate that Anthy is equating what Utena is saying with Dios in her mind.

I'm not sure if it's Utena or Anthy that is controlling Dios at that point. @_@ Well, if it was Akio in the beginning that met Child!Utena, then Anthy controlling the duels, and then a manifestation of part of Utena at the end.. but when Utena opened the coffin and found the Power of Dios, it was Anthy. Maybe the Dios at the end was her perception of Dios at that point, after finding out about how Akio really was.. damn it, my head hurts. Either way, it looks like Dios was trying to get her to get up using reverse psychology. I can imagine that as a little part of Utena mocking herself and thus making herself angry and determined again.But.. I don't know. Ow.

Giovanna wrote:

Also, the behavior you see from Dios perhaps supports that it's different siblings at different times. Dios in the flashback speaks from a position where he understands, and he's convincingly innocent but leading still. He..well...sounds like how Akio would portray him from his vantage point. There's even an emphasis made on his inability to do anything, and while that seems like a natural part of the conversation, he was yapping enough that had he wanted to dodge explaining that Dios was helpless, he could easily have done so. Dios in the last episode is more, hm...active? He protects Utena with no regard at all for Anthy, which I think is how Anthy would present him, since that's what she remembers vs. what Akio must fake (that he would save her).

*nodnod* Hmm... Possible parallels with the portrayal of Touga in the movie? Akio's Dios and Anthy's Dios... Utena's Touga and Shiori's Touga...

I know get why Anthy is called a "witch", in the movie..

She was the cause of the 'prince's death' or her brother's death.. Everybody despised her.. As Akio said as he was talking to the phone with Touga, the prince was really the 'lord of flies' (akio), he just became prince (dios) through her sister's magic (must be love?), Anthy is really a witch, Akio said as they were having the conversation in the land of the dead..

Now, I have applied the 'witch' of Anthy in the movie, but not really in the episode.. Any of you know why in the episode?

Anthy became the 'rose bride' to princes, and she has no will of her own, she has lost the power to love.. Thousand swords pertain to everyone's hatred for her..

Just my own enterpratation.. n_n


Also, I noticed a lot of things, like:
1.) when Jury asked Miki why he was in the duel, a plate named 'Kozue' appeared..
2.) When Utena was standing in the corner of the rose gardern, Anthy asked if she was scared to be in that position, yet we see Anthy in that place in the rose garden
3.) The crocodile that Nanami cow also inhaled was the same drawing that Shiori drew in Touga's back
4.) I think the car in the movie relates to the car scenes of Akio as well in the series
5.) Utena and Touga scene, Touga said everything was made to fill the gap, since there were no longer miracles.. So that everyone can look forward to something, and down right there, Utena said there were no prince to start with, hence the idea of her and Anthy to ran away from the illusionary academy to stop for the search for the castle.. As the 2ND ending did say, "Ah it's just an empty motion.. Just an empty motion, that's what it is.."

She became the car, and now it's Anthy's turn to be the duelist to fight her way out of Ohtori

An entrance of the old scene where her brother said without a key, the car will rust.. Remember Utena's words?

"Let's help each other"

Shiori was gaining on Himemiya, but she has no driver.. We were never meant to face the world alone in this life.. I guess that's what it wanted to portray

The multiple black cars are still the desires running after Himemiya again.. She just left afterall, so it's natural that not everything is said goodbye to

Nevertheless, they fought their way, not to mention a little help from friends..
(As I mentioned, 'little', it's still Anthy fighting through the end and mostly)

(Anyway, all these are my own interpretation)

Question:
1.) What is the key to Akio's car anyway? Anthy opened the 'Utena Car' with the duelist ring as the key..
2.) I still don't get how Anthy could be the key to the castle.. Sure, she's the rose bride, but logically speaking, if we look at all the symbolisms, it just doesn't fit for me.. How can Himemiya grant access to the castle up in the sky?

Stephanie wrote:

1.) What is the key to Akio's car anyway? Anthy opened the 'Utena Car' with the duelist ring as the key..

I have no idea!

If the key always had to be a signet, how does Shiori drive hers without Juri, who is the Wakaba Jeep? How does the Wakaba Jeep run without ____ movie character that would be the key? Anthy gets a key to the Utena car, though; in the case of both Wakaba and Shiori they are their cars, they're not being driven by anyone, aside from Juri driving Wakaba's. Probably not the same emotional connection Utena and Anthy have, there. For all of them though there's the being a car, or being entitled to drive another person that's being a car. Akio is both a human character and a car, and apparently incapable of driving himself.

Maybe a stretch but all I can think of there is that Akio's howling about needing to find his key is not so much him looking for an actual key, but looking for someone capable of becoming that key, which doesn't seem to exist, or no one's willing to be that. Anthy might have been capable of 'saving' him, but if you go by the series, it's Anthy that cages him, and up for grabs whether it's that he needs to be saved from her or from himself. I always interpreted the him looking for his key thing as a cry for help, fitting because he is a much more ah...sensitive...character in the movie.

@Mrs. Akio
Now that I think about it, it may be that the symbolism of Anthy sealing Dios away from Akio is Akio's love for Anthy.. I remember the shadow girl's play in The Tale of the Rose, and it said there that "I cannot be a princess because I'm your sister, therefore I became a WITCH!"

I think, even in their world (besides anime being an escape fantasy), they never viewed incest as truly acceptable in their society and hence, they got burned.. (But, they should've known better, like probably some of us here posters as well, that it doesn't matter and they're the only ones putting their own self into the burrow.. so what if it's not acceptable in the society?)

So, inlove with his sister, Akio stop being a prince to everyone.. And I still don't know how that, in the TV series, projects to Anthy's 1000 swords.. Akio, in the movie, is the 'Lord of Flies', it's who he really is, must be pertaining to how he drug his sister every night.. Anthy, having Akio died in the movie, is her thorn.. her 1000 swords.. It's her fault.. Her beloved died..

Damn it! I wish the director could explain the '1000' swords, Anthy being witch and all.. I'm really lost

@Suyo
Go right ahead..

No, but it's definitely a more ecumenical way of dividing the blame.  We have that climactic moment by the cabin where events coincide.  Or Anthy caging Dios in the castle.  And, maybe there wasn't consummated incest before then.  But realistically, Dios didn't become Akio in a single moment.  She says she is the only girl in the world who can't become a Princess, so she has no choice but to become a Witch.  (And certainly I think Anthy is the world's scapegoat.)  The girl Dios presumably loves most in the world is also the only girl he can't be a Prince to without damning himself.  The incest is an external expression of their rebellion against the society/world that put them in that position.  'Fine, we'll be Witch and Devil together.'

Why was Anthy a witch anyway? What do you think the '1000 swords' represent? People's sarcasm? People hating her?

Anthy was a Witch for several reasons.  You told a story about a wounded bird in another thread that explains why Anthy behaves as a Witch.  But people view Anthy as a Witch before she really becomes one.  I think, on one hand, for the reason she said--if she's the only girl in the world who isn't a Princess, what is she?  In the fairy tales, the polar opposite of the Princess (Snow White/Cinderella), is the Witch (The Queen/Evil Stepmother).  In context of what I feel is the truer Tale of the Rose, Anthy had a claim on the Prince no one else could.  It didn't bring her happiness--on the contrary, it brought her more suffering than the lucky girls who could be Princesses.  She was a strange, lonely figure who had no connections to anyone but Dios.  This made her despised and feared.  And when she takes the initiative to attempt to protect Dios, she is stoned, lynched--stabbed to "death" by the mob.  Those swords are symbols of humanity's hatred for her, symbols of how she is a scapegoat (taking blame for everything in place of the Prince).  In the context of her life as a 'normal girl at school', the swords are the metaphorical "sticks and stones" of the world Anthy lives in.

But an interesting note about my fluid representation of Anthy in Tale of the Rose--when she steps outside the cabin and closes the door, don't the people ask out loud who she is?  Why might that be...?

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (10-24-2007 06:05:26 PM)