SleepDebtFairy wrote:

Also, am I the only one that finds it interesting that Kanae's black rose episode is the only one that shows Mamiya stabbing her with a black rose, and that Mamiya is really Anthy, whom Kanae rants about in the elevator? They probably didn't show that with the other black rose duelists to save time, but Mamiya's expression just amuses me.. since it is Anthy. If only Kanae knew.

I've been thinking about this lately. After all, it's not like SKU is a series which worries about wasting time with repetitive scenes. Kanae gets stabbed by the rose "because" she doesn't have a soul sword pulling scene. But is it really safe to assume that the other black rose duellists do have the rose stabbed into their hearts? Mikage says that he froze Kanae's heart, and this is presumably what makes her into a duellist. All the others get their duellist abilities from the soul swords that they wield. And even though the black rose being scattered causes every duellist to collapse, it also makes the soul sword vanish.

So, do the other black rose duellists really get stabbed? It's odd that such a scene would be left out. Especially, say, when it would happen to Wakaba.

Do all of the Black Rose duellists gets stabbed by Mamiya? We only see it happen to Kanae.

The malice on Mamiya's face is clearly Anthy's malice; clearly she is ferociously jealous, and, at least for the time being, is much like Kozue. Is she jealous only because she is involved with Akio, or is it perhaps because Kanae is a Princess?

Does Kanae remind her of what she cannot be or of what she once was?

Last edited by brian (07-01-2007 07:21:25 PM)

Ragnarok wrote:

I've been thinking about this lately. After all, it's not like SKU is a series which worries about wasting time with repetitive scenes. Kanae gets stabbed by the rose "because" she doesn't have a soul sword pulling scene. But is it really safe to assume that the other black rose duellists do have the rose stabbed into their hearts? Mikage says that he froze Kanae's heart, and this is presumably what makes her into a duellist. All the others get their duellist abilities from the soul swords that they wield. And even though the black rose being scattered causes every duellist to collapse, it also makes the soul sword vanish.

So, do the other black rose duellists really get stabbed? It's odd that such a scene would be left out. Especially, say, when it would happen to Wakaba.

That is true.. the other black rose duelists get the scenes where they pull the swords out of their respective obsessions, instead of the Mamiya rose-stabbing scene. And I think the rose-stabbing scene is especially apt for Kanae, not just because she's the first black rose duelist and thus acts as an introduction to the whole thing, but also because Mamiya is Anthy.. It's just so creepy when you realize it later on.

Thinking about it, though, I don't think the others get stabbed. It seems like they go straight to who they are taking the swords from.

brian wrote:

Do all of the Black Rose duellists gets stabbed by Mamiya? We only see it happen to Kanae.

The malice on Mamiya's face is clearly Anthy's malice; clearly she is ferociously jealous, and, at least for the time being, is much like Kozue. Is she jealous only because she is involved with Akio, or is it perhaps because Kanae is a Princess?

Does Kanae remind her of what she cannot be or of what she once was?

I love the malice in Mamiya's face. It's really sadistic and creepy. And I definitely think Anthy is very, very possessive of Akio, thus the cold shoulder to Kanae. The princess thing might help, too..

alexielnet, thank you for the screencap. I was looking for one of movie!Akio mid-slide/jump/whatever on the car. I want to icon it or something just because it's so ridiculously funny.

Last edited by SleepDebtFairy (07-02-2007 01:56:36 AM)

I knew I was going to be injuring some souls when I posted that picture, but what can you do? The horror cannot be explained. It can only be seen, then shuddered at, then, if you are lucky, repressed. He could have been Christian Freaking Bale, but once he did that little leap over the car, it was over for me. I was never, ever going to be able to look at him again as anything but LAME. (Thank The Doctor that it wasn't Christian Bale because looking at him is one of the things that makes life worth the trouble.)

**Back then, I didn’t know anything about symbolism, but the glasses immediately struck me as something with a deeper meaning, but I never knew what.**

Maybe glasses stand for perception or invisible wall between her and others. Maybe near Akio she's unarmed? Or, she don't want to see Akio during Saturday night. She smiles not at him, but through him.

*Feeding Kanae*
(I see that Anthy gives her a fruit, but she's in arms of Chairman, so it could be right)

She's just like Eva, don't you think? Akio (Devil) tempt First Woman to eat forbidden fruit, apple. He's feeds her, he's great superior who was merciful to fussy girl (she looks so miserable and...young). She looks so young as if she could be Akio's daughter, wait, he is in her father's place, so that's it!
"You shouldn't have bitten a hand which feeds you, silly girl."

*Apple full of forks* (I'm not sure this part) looks like voodoo doll for me, or it's tormented Anthy.


I don't think that she loves Akio, she's just a princess waiting for savior, and he came to "win her hand and half of kingdom". It's really sick situation, where Kanae is surrounded by aliens and her life is full of calculation.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

There is a piece missing, just like there is a piece missing from Anthy, the "doll with no heart."

I didn't thought about this one, and now I believe it is an accurate interpretation. Another question missing answer would be if it has any meaning that, following rhyaniwyn, Kanae is eating (or not?) Anthy's heart. It might sound a little macabre, but who knows, in symbolism and SKU almost anything is possible. Of course, even symbolism has an end, so probably this whole "eating hearts" is already beyond it.

On the other hand, that would be quite far from Razara's analysis.

[Still: Is Kanae the princess that Anthy wanted to be? That could be a good point to start. I should think about it, and look for more essays ]

Well, look at who the other Black Rose Duelists were in relation to the person they pulled the swords from.

Shiori is Juri's great unrequited love, essentially the reason Juri's even a Duelist to begin with.
Kozue is, in my eyes, Miki's other half. That's why he's had trouble playing "The Sunny Garden" since that infamous day.

Those are obvious.

Keiko, however, is just some random girl to Touga. He couldn't give a damn about her.
Wakaba, I think, is only slightly more important to Saionji than Keiko is to Touga.*

Both of them, are the "ordinary girls" of the show. Their existence is only defined by the important person that's next to them.

Then there's Tsuwabuki. I understand his motivation, but I never really felt like Nanami should have been a Duelist. She would have made a hell of a Black Rose Duelist for Touga, too, if Saionji didn't do it.

* I think that Mikage gets Saionji back into school so that he can be the Black Rose Duelist for Touga, which would have made a hell of a lot more sense, but it didn't work out that way. **

** Now I wonder what Saionji would be like in the Elevator of Doom.

THERE ARE ITALIAN FORUM MEMBERS.

HOW COME NONE OF THEM HAVE NOTIFIED US THAT 'BARA' IN ITALIAN MEANS 'COFFIN'.



Edit: AND 'BARARE' IS TO CHEAT, WHICH MEANS 'BARA' IS 'HE/SHE/IT CHEATS'.

Last edited by Giovanna (07-08-2007 07:01:57 PM)

Its amazing how many meta-level SKU has, way more than even Ikuni would be consciously realised.

Hiraku wrote:

Something that got my curiosity lately...

In the last Seitokai duels, I found that Ruka and Touga seemed to be the only Rose Brides who didn't get crashed by cars along with their duelists (Juri and Nanami). Actually, when Shiori was the Rose Bride, she was the only one that crashed, not Ruka.

Why don't they have to suffer the way Saionji, Miki, Kozue, and Shiori did?

Yeah, I know, Touga got crashed at his final duel against Utena, but I think that might have something to do with the fact that Saionji was there with him...

Personally, I'd chalk that one up to the amount of control that both Touga and Ruka show over the rules of the game.

When Touga becomes Nanami's Rose Bride, it's because he's been playing her right into this situation, and knows precisely what's going to happen. The same can be said for Ruka when he becomes Juri's Bride. In both situations, they are aware of the rules of the game and are working towards an end moreso than the duelists themselves, who are pretty much puppets (strong hints of the relationship between Utena and Anthy anyone?). So they don't 'lose control' and thus have no reason to be involved in such a wreck.

Looking at Touga's final duel, it could be said that by that point he had kind of abandoned his plans, he was desperate by the end just to win Utena over. And his failure crushed him enough that he couldn't keep in control like he had up to that point. So he crashed.
Damnit, now I want to watch the Apocalypse arc again and study how the crashes occur.

Hm, that could very well be true.  I've always viewed the movie's cast as a collection of the "dead" aspects of the series' characters, the casualties of Utena's revolution.  Escaping to "the outside world" was the difference between letting those aspects lay dormant or effectively shedding them through the act of emotional maturity.  The Prince-Killing Anthy, our quintessential witch, in escaping to the outside world is finally able to shed that stigma and live for herself.

Something I just noticed that's not so much symbolism but interesting regardless:

(Image Removed)

From episode 5, in which Touga reiterates his prodding of Miki.  Does the scenery look familiar?

(Image Removed)
Hmm.

When you juxtapose it that way, Touga's episode five scene in the bedroom seems almost like a rehearsal with Akio for how to get Miki where they want him.

Last edited by Giovanna (07-15-2011 12:02:49 PM)

At first glance, I'd say royal purple for the grapes there, but I think it'd also go with Dionysius because this reminds me of what Anthy said in the movie, "Calm down. Onii-sama is my prince, so you can do whatever you want." Supposedly, being a prince in a fairytale means you can do all sorts of shit and still be justified for your actions. But, of course, Akio's a person of the real world, and real world wouldn't condone incestuous rape. Anthy is living in her own fairy tale, so she's unaware of the consequence of the sorts of things she'd allow her "prince" to do.

(Let's not forget that Anthy in the movie also sleeps with anyone who becomes the champion of the duels)

Let's see... the image of Touga and Akio...When I first saw that in episode 5, I got the idea that Miki slept with him, especially when Touga gave that comment about Kozue being pretty and agreeable just like Miki.

This scene, I think, was something off of Miki's memory, so unless he's slept with him, I doubt he would have the memory of the bed. But, then, we also realized that he's somewhat highly "imaginative" with the way he romanticized the scene where he played piano with Kozue. So, maybe that scene in his head was a romanticized version of Touga leaning against the piano at the time.

But if my former interpretation proves valid, and to go with the idea that Akio just so happens to be behind Touga (I doubt it, since Miki doesn't know Akio at that point)... Nah, it wouldn't make sense.

Giovanna wrote:

The way Touga is sitting in the second image with Akio is very, very closed off, especially for him.

I recall initially thinking the scene with Touga suggested Miki had slept with him, but now I think that it's just an imagined sexual idealization of Touga, who quite enthusiastically encourages that sort of thing. He knows Touga's banging Kozue, and there seems to me almost an envy about how Miki's seeing him as this freely sexual creature he's not allowed to be, especially with Kozue.

As for Anthy, that's definitely the princess dress from the series. And a castle instead of a shed. Quite a contrast there.

Knowing Utena, anything involving princess and prince is a lie. I doubt the castle ever existed in the first place for both the series and the movie. In the series, we see that it's actually a shed where Anthy sheltered Dios. And, in the movie, we see that Anthy "killed" her brother at the studio (?) where he paints her portraits.
Knowing that the characters' words can all be distorted from the truth to a certain extent, I think Anthy's sealing of Dios in the movie is actually him falling off the window and her burying him inside the garden.