Definately agree with all the ones you put down. I'd also have to naturally add "Revolution" Utena vs. Akio. I love how it starts with Utena fighting with all her might and Akio just looks bored until she says "It means I'll become a prince!" and then everything starts going to hell. It's one of the only two times in the series in which Akio looks scared, the other being in the very next episode of course. "Internal Clock Municiple Orrery" helps a lot too.

My personal favourite is Mikage's duel, because of the ending -- I felt all my understanding of what the hell was going on crash down around my ears just as he did. We suck.

I particularly like Juri's second duel for the beautiful ending, and then I could watch Wakaba's over and over (the facts that it is (a) so emotionally gut-wrenching and that (b) Utena wins without even drawing the sword slay me every time). The best ending to any duel, however, in pure kick-to-the-groin-ness, is Utena and Akio's duel. Damn, that was a hell of a way for Anthy to get involved...I mean, we already knew she wasn't above interfering, but damn, that was a hell of a surprise. I love this kind of thing.

Wakaba's is really great, really heart wrenching stuff. And definitely the most unique duel in the series.

But if I have to pick a personal favourite, it's Touga's third duel, enitrely due to the ending sequence. Completely over the top awesomeness!

I love Jury's duels, Shiori's, and Wakaba's the most. I have a ton vying for a close second, so I won't bother posting them all.

Giovanna wrote:

Ragnarok wrote:

Wakaba's is really great, really heart wrenching stuff. And definitely the most unique duel in the series.

This one, my god. I get teary every time I watch it, I think in no small part due to Wakaba's voice, the way she screams out some of the words and you can hear the tears welling up from how overwrought she is. Just wow. Also her duel song rocks in about ten different directions.

I can definitely relate to Wakaba (esp. black rose Wakaba). When I first started actively buying Utena, I was in high school...I won't go into what happened there in detail, not ever in my life to anyone, but I now have severe post-traumatic stress disorder that occasionally borders on hikkomori syndrome, and most of it is due to that school.

I got a new DVD one day...and it came to that one episode, Wakaba's duel. When she grabbed Utena by the hair, screaming... "you could NEVER understand! You special people, without a care in the world...you and the student council, and that girl, too! You use the special things you were born with, and TRAMPLE THE REST OF US!" And the way she slips backward at the end, even though Utena's gripping her like mad, and that ONE tear just rolled down her face...

I don't know how long I cried or how many times I rewound and replayed that duel. It was just...I don't know. I really don't know how to describe that, but I stil cry sometimes when I watch it. A lot of things in the series hit me HARD, but that one is the only one that made me cry.

It's so beautiful and terrible at the same time...I know those aren't two words you'd often hear used to describe the same thing, but it is anyway. It's certainly the most emotional of the black rose duels, and that's saying a lot, considering they were all based on similar hatreds and fears.

Rosemary Bats wrote:

It's so beautiful and terrible at the same time...I know those aren't two words you'd often hear used to describe the same thing, but it is anyway. It's certainly the most emotional of the black rose duels, and that's saying a lot, considering they were all based on similar hatreds and fears.

I agree 100%. I think, though, that there are a lot of factors at work in what make Wakaba's duel so powerful. Kozue? Shiori? They're fighting, but not because of the people in the arena. All of Wakaba's anger and frustration is focused on Utena and Anthy, and it's intense and all-consuming because it's completely hopeless. I think that's a lot of what drives the state she's in, a sense of desperation and futility. Utena is everything Wakaba wants to be but isn't, and Anthy has what Wakaba wants for herself and cannot, and all the anger, sword swinging, and attacking the Rose Bride (even Kanae doesn't do this, does she?) in the world won't change that. She can hurt them, kill them, but they'll always be better than her, and that realization fuels her fury.

And what about that tear she sheds? Regret? Shame? Sadness? Does she cry because she even after all this, Utena's proved herself the better man? Surely it's in some part realizing what's she's done and feeling bad; Wakaba's a good person and despite any motivation couldn't properly justify her behavior. But at that same moment, it occurs to her: her dorm room is empty now. Her moment to shine so brightly has passed.

Not many of us relate to Wakaba most of the time. SKU doesn't draw the kind of crowd that thinks or acts like her, really, and her innocence and optimism just don't jive at all with the majority of us who relate to Anthy or Juri or Saionji. But even if you can't relate to her limitless optimism and effervescence, I think the vast, vast majority of us can relate to the things she says in that duel.

Sometimes I wonder, if you took Wakaba and Saionji to an alternate dimension where they would talk honestly about these things, if they'd not find in this quite a bit of common ground. I'm not usually a 'shipper kind of fan, and I'm really not in this case either, but those episodes have always struck me as painfully sad because these two people pass through each other's lives so pointlessly and disruptively, when you really have to wonder, had someone's wall cracked a little, had circumstances been different, had eyes been open, had there been a little more honesty, maybe, maybe they could have found some comfort in their lives with each other. Wakaba spent days with the man she adores, so much that just being with him lifted her up, and he in turn sat in this girl's dorm for days, completely oblivious to the fact that in it was someone that would have happily provided the love and affection he so desperately needs. They were so close, they were right there, but miles apart, and what could have been just simply wasn't.

Now I feel like I've been shot in the gut, and I was just typing about it.

Giovanna wrote:

Rosemary Bats wrote:

It's so beautiful and terrible at the same time...I know those aren't two words you'd often hear used to describe the same thing, but it is anyway. It's certainly the most emotional of the black rose duels, and that's saying a lot, considering they were all based on similar hatreds and fears.

I agree 100%. I think, though, that there are a lot of factors at work in what make Wakaba's duel so powerful. Kozue? Shiori? They're fighting, but not because of the people in the arena. All of Wakaba's anger and frustration is focused on Utena and Anthy, and it's intense and all-consuming because it's completely hopeless. I think that's a lot of what drives the state she's in, a sense of desperation and futility. Utena is everything Wakaba wants to be but isn't, and Anthy has what Wakaba wants for herself and cannot, and all the anger, sword swinging, and attacking the Rose Bride (even Kanae doesn't do this, does she?) in the world won't change that. She can hurt them, kill them, but they'll always be better than her, and that realization fuels her fury.

And what about that tear she sheds? Regret? Shame? Sadness? Does she cry because she even after all this, Utena's proved herself the better man? Surely it's in some part realizing what's she's done and feeling bad; Wakaba's a good person and despite any motivation couldn't properly justify her behavior. But at that same moment, it occurs to her: her dorm room is empty now. Her moment to shine so brightly has passed.

Not many of us relate to Wakaba most of the time. SKU doesn't draw the kind of crowd that thinks or acts like her, really, and her innocence and optimism just don't jive at all with the majority of us who relate to Anthy or Juri or Saionji. But even if you can't relate to her limitless optimism and effervescence, I think the vast, vast majority of us can relate to the things she says in that duel.

Sometimes I wonder, if you took Wakaba and Saionji to an alternate dimension where they would talk honestly about these things, if they'd not find in this quite a bit of common ground. I'm not usually a 'shipper kind of fan, and I'm really not in this case either, but those episodes have always struck me as painfully sad because these two people pass through each other's lives so pointlessly and disruptively, when you really have to wonder, had someone's wall cracked a little, had circumstances been different, had eyes been open, had there been a little more honesty, maybe, maybe they could have found some comfort in their lives with each other. Wakaba spent days with the man she adores, so much that just being with him lifted her up, and he in turn sat in this girl's dorm for days, completely oblivious to the fact that in it was someone that would have happily provided the love and affection he so desperately needs. They were so close, they were right there, but miles apart, and what could have been just simply wasn't.

Now I feel like I've been shot in the gut, and I was just typing about it.

Wow, hell of an analysis. Awesome. I'll be re-watching that duel when I get home. It does get me every time, not only for Wakaba's sake but because for Utena it is the most personal duel and she has her two best friends needing her in two different ways. And she comes through for both of them. So cool, my hero!

I think it's been commented on but in the Japanese version, Utena calls Himemiya "Anthy" during that scene, one of the very few times she ever calls her that. In the English version, Utena always calls Himemiya "Anthy" so they switched which character says the familiar and have Anthy say "Utena" without the honorific instead of "Miss Utena" as she usually does. 

ZSPACE wrote:

I love Miki's duel when Kouze is his bride. The chours is very different so that's cool, but the most excitng part is when Kouze kisses Anthy. I was totally caught off guard. Was not expectin' that.

Yeah, and look who's driving. Anthy is totally in control, taking one for the team. And I love Utena in that scene too for what she DOESN'T do. Utena is not at all distracted by the seduction going on. Ever since Touga distracted her and took Anthy, Utena is undistracted during duels,  totally "eyes on the prize".

Last edited by Dani (10-27-2006 11:26:27 AM)

My favorite duel would be Juri's duel with Ruka as her 'bride'. it always makes me want to cry t-t
but...with the breaking of her locket, she became free of Shiori (for the most part)
So it ended up good..but it was still sad. Juri probably could have won if that didn't happen.
Then again, she could have won the first duel...

Well, these 'favorite' things tend to change quite frequently with me, but at this moment I would give my vote to Juri's first duel. Why? Ho boy, there is a reason. It's written out in several paragraphs of in-depth analisis that really belongs in a seperate topic. *wants to write it so badly* In short:

The irony, the answers behind the question 'why', visual appeal, perfect visual/music timing and a more than amusing ending, to which I laughed more than I should have.

---

The Wakaba duel however, didn't do much to me. Now I'm wondering why, since it seems to have left a strong impression on everyone else...

Last edited by Arki (10-28-2006 06:47:24 PM)

Yasha wrote:

In my case, it's worse because I have a compassionate temperament, so much that other peoples' suffering causes me grief.

I did have some thoughts to post, but since they were mostly off-topic and would catch the eye of an admin, I decided to play safe. :D But I just had to reply to the quote, because having compassion to other people's problems in something admirable, really. A friend once told me something that impressed me quite a bit; How it doesn't matter what kind of a problem it is, but how much that problem is bothering the person. It made me realise that there's no such thing as a 'stupid' problem and so my sympathy and understanding level of others incresed. Go me.

And just to give an allusion that I'm still on-topic d:, when I think about it, Wakaba's duel probably didn't stir as much emotions as it should have, because I didn't relate to the character much at that moment. I watched the episode only once and that was purely to know how the story is progressing. If Wakaba's troubles were similar to any of my own, I'm sure I would have instantly related to the pain the poor girl was going through. Instead, I'll have to re-watch this episode again and think from a perspective different than my own, so I could come to an understanding of her character, eventually. Fun, fun. (:

I love your interpretation of Shiori's duel. I was always wondering about those birds.
At first glance, all the Black Rose duels seem so much alike (especially the way how Utena fights them), save for Wakaba's, but once you get into the symbolism and the meanings behind everything, every dule becomes more unique.

Something that always struck me about the BRS duels was Utena's ignorance in them. In the other duels, Utena's usually at least partially aware of the motivations involved, or the situations leading up to the duel. She was aware of Miki's attraction to Anthy, she saw Juri getting coiled for attack. Touga, well that she never saw coming, because Touga never socialized with her in a way that would show his intentions, but that was who he was, and Utena wouldn't have understood him anyway.

In the BRS duels, she has people coming at her without any understanding at all of why, so she battles each the same way. Even Wakaba's duel she doesn't understand, she admits this openly, although her understanding is perhaps much better than she lets on, if actual sympathy is lacking.

Of course, the kicker in that is that Akio explains each of them (well most of them) to her, and she doesn't understand him.