winksniper wrote:

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

And dude, Nanami is 13 and look at that fucking figure.  No wonder she and the rest of the female cast have problems concerning sexuality and growing up.

Yeah, it's a little ridiculous.  The fact that most of them are in middle/high school is kinda crazy too.

Hell, before I found out the real ages of Utena and most of the cast, I figured that they were all at leasy in their late teens if not twenties.

Yeah, but as far as Anime goes, it's pretty damn conservative. I mean...



Pictured above: Normal Japanese high school girl pubertal development.

Last edited by Katzenklavier (11-18-2009 10:35:07 PM)

Yes. That. That's precisely why I can't STAND her.

Nanami was a complete and utter witch to Utena and Anthy for most of the series; for all of her supposed nobility it still makes sense for Utena to hold a bit of a grudge.

I don't perceive that flaw as Utena holding a grudge. As other characters point out throughout the series, she's incredibly naive and tends to only understand things on a superficial level. During the first arc, the show was considerably more shallow and easier to understand, so her greatest weakness was not quite as obvious. As the series progressed and got darker, her self-assumed "normalcy" became more of a contrast. By the Akio arc, she's hilariously blind to her own manipulation and that of those around her.

On one hand, it's her greatest strength. It allows her to stay with Anthy until a truer and deeper friendship develops. Also, she does reach out to help many of the duelists that oppose her. She shows concern for Nanami when her often self-proclaimed enemy is forced to live with her, and is disgusted by Touga's treatment of her. After Kanae's duel, she makes sure to try and find out if the girl is alright. Is it extensive? No. But she's too trusting to the deeper motives of those using her.

Yeah, but she's ALL about making Shiori feel better. Just would not let up until Juri did something.

Of course Utena has sympathy for Shiori. Look at how she usually presents herself publicly. If you were in the series and you didn't see the girl's breakdown in the elevator, you might too. Shiori comes off as Juri's own personal Anthy: in need of care and protection. She seems so fragile and demure. Loyalty to friends and protecting the weak are two of Utena's most treasured values - so she criticizes Arisugawa when she feels the duelist isn't exhibiting those morals.

Utena is compassionate. Very very much so. And unlike the rest of the characters, she's not petty. She doesn't go out of her way to torment those who wrong her. Hell, she saves Anthy even after the so-called witch tries to kill her. BUT she is ignorant, naive, and stubborn to a fault. She has no real capacity to understand the complex problems of those who confront her until near the end of the series. Also look at how little people choose to share; most of the duelists only babble vaguely when fighting. The audience takes it for granted they know so much about the characters and their motives. How is someone actually in the story supposed to know (besides Anthy and Akio?).

I think your opinions are valid, but personally that you really misinterpret her character by calling her insensitive and perhaps make assumptions about what she would or wouldn't know about.

Last edited by Katzenklavier (11-19-2009 01:48:28 AM)

Katzenklavier wrote:

Also look at how little people choose to share; most of the duelists only babble vaguely when fighting. The audience takes it for granted they know so much about the characters and their motives. How is someone actually in the story supposed to know (besides Anthy and Akio?).

Yeah, I definitely forgot about what the duelist actually told Utena. But, how willing is a person in opening up their darkest secret... For one thing, Mikage would run out of business, and we'll have no Black Rose Arc xD

Naive and trusting is definitely a better way of putting it. Consider the incident where Chuchu's stuck in the vase (?) when Utena's asked whether she knows anyone who might need counseling, though. hm... Would this also be an early sign of Utena "straying from her path as a noble prince"?

Right. I didn't mean to come off as overly critical. Utena is one of those characters that has really interested me lately, so I like playing devil's advocate and stimulating conversation about her.

However, Utena's incapability to understand a certain level of darkness or disturbance is exactly why she blocked out her true memories of Dios and Anthy, and it renders her clueless to the true nature of every single character.

I think that's key. It's hard to remember when we watch her acting so cheerful and strong that she comes from a bleak place. She lost her parents when she was very young and attempted suicide. I think you make a very interesting point about her naivete: it's not just inexperience that fuels her naivete. It's a deliberate stubborn choice - at least on a subconscious level. She had to re-interpret what she saw the day she discovered the tortured miserable Anthy in order to survive. She had to find reason in her dark and uncertain existence. So that mythic fairytale that assumes the best and the positive is the only reason that really keeps her going.

Hence why she's so crushed when that myth finally evaporates.

Razara wrote:

Juri's not much of a prince, but Utena never misses a chance to be "a noble prince who saves princesses," and at that moment, making Juri step up and do the right thing was her way of trying to be a prince. Of course, her perhaps that shows that she is ignorant to Juri's feelings, but as far as I'm concerned, Utena's right in this case.

You make a good point, but since when does Juri actually have the desire to be anyone's "prince"?  As we all know, she blatantly mocks Utena for the idea because she has no real belief in the possibility.  Yes, it would have been perhaps a smart idea to go and comfort Shiori when she was down, but it's not like Juri never tried.  Juri went to try to be there for Shiori when Ruka dumped her, and Shiori, not understanding Juri's motives and taking them the wrong way, shut her out completely.  I also get the feeling that although Juri is in love with Shiori, she doesn't want to be in love with her because of the way she's treated.  Sure, you might argue that the only reason why Shiori treats her like she does is because Juri does so much better than her and pities her, but is Juri really doing this on purpose?  I mean, is she going out of her way to show off her accomplishments just to make Shiori feel bad?  I honestly don't think Juri even realizes it, whether she is or not.  In my opinion, that's why Juri turned out to be so bitter towards Utena, because in her mind, you can't save anyone, especially not those who don't want to be saved.  /endrant

Razara wrote:

winksniper wrote:

since when does Juri actually have the desire to be anyone's "prince"?

That's my point. Utena is forcing her ideology on Juri, who has no desire to be a prince. Yet we still have to listen to her God damned moping about the one time Shiori hurt her, and then watch Juri return the favor by refusing to forgive her and only offer support when no ones looking.

True.  But this whole time since then, the only thing Shiori's ever had to do with Juri was messing with her emotions and then running back whenever she needed support.  Hell, I wouldn't be very forgiving either.

Razara wrote:

All I remember is Shiori saving kittens from trees and volunteering at the local orphanage.

No, that's what Kozue does. And, I have the bird house to prove it

I don't think Juri "particularly" minded about what Shiori did to her. She still loved Shiori. She went out her way to warn Shiori about Ruka, and when Ruka dumped Shiori, Juri did eventually come see her, albeit her most pitiful state. And, the part where Shiori's phone messages to Ruka were replayed on Akio's car stereo? I get the feeling that Juri's somewhat disturbed by that.

On a side note, I also definitely forgot about Utena's loss of parents and intention to commit suicide. In fairytale, the death of a hero/heroine's parents have always been glossed over, isn't it?

Lightice wrote:

oscarthewild wrote:

Something about Utena's affair with Akio annoys me. I mean, she doesn't suspect him at all in being behind the duels? Sure, she knows later, but not at first. Of course, she's supposed to be naive and all that, but still.

One word: Denial. Plus that she's 14-year old girl with a crush against a man who pretty much lives from emotional manipulation. It's so obvious from an external perspective, which is obviously why we find it so annoying, but it's sadly not unbelievable.

I hadn't thought about that. Good point.

Giovanna wrote:

oscarthewild wrote:

Lightice wrote:

One word: Denial. Plus that she's 14-year old girl with a crush against a man who pretty much lives from emotional manipulation. It's so obvious from an external perspective, which is obviously why we find it so annoying, but it's sadly not unbelievable.

I hadn't thought about that. Good point.

Yeah, I like the scene in episode 30 where Akio's all 'It's a new car what do you think?' and Utena seems to be thinking really hard and then Wakaba pops in. I think she was trying to remember where she'd seen it and failed.

I'm rewatching the scene just now. I forgot about this little exchange.

Frau Eva wrote:

I can't think of any sex in Utena that isn't terribly wrong in one way or another--if not morally, then in a soul-crushing sense. The show alternates between turning you on and making you never want to have sex again.

Oh my God, yeah.  Can you imagine the kinds of supressed memories Utena had to have brought up in some people?  It's like reliving it all over again. 

Frau Eva wrote:

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Not a big fan of Chiho myself.  Sometimes her art is pretty, and sometimes her art is like WTF terrible.  And her storytelling is awful.  Or, well, not to my tastes.


Actually.  We'll pretty much say the manga for me.  All the cliche and genericness of a shoujo title, with none of SKU's irony.

Oh, yeah, definitely Saito is my least favorite part of all Utenadom. Her plots and characters are generic shoujo--I really have NO idea why Ikuhara sought her out to do this if the entire project he was running was basically a parody and send-up of it. The manga is boring and--besides maybe a few little plot points that might be cool to add in--just totally useless; I'd rather go with video game canon even. And if you listened to the interview with her and Ikuhara on the last disc, she's basically the reason why Utena and Anthy never kissed in the series, because she issued an ultimatum that she would leave if they did. Combine this with Juri being straight in her manga and you get a rather unsavory picture of her view of homosexuals. I mean, I know Ikuhara wasn't exactly a saint by keeping her in the dark with basically everything, but she's really just a hack.

Such agreement.  What I really can't stand is that, despite being created at the same time as the series...the manga reads like a fanfiction written by a fan who fundamentally misinterpreted the series.  The kind who believes with all their heart that Touga IS a princely misunderstood guy, Saionji is just a meanie-face who is is jealous of him, Juri and Ruka WERE SO MEANT TO BE, that characters like Nanami and Shiori serve no purpose other than to be annoying, that Kozue is just possessive and shallow, that Miki truly is pure and innocent, without a mean bone in his body and that Anthy is the same, only more victim-y.



No seriously, her representation of Touga STEAMS ME.  In the series, sure, he's a dick.  But a dick that is fun to watch and analyze, who serves a purpose in the story's overall meaning and Utena's growth.  In the movie, he's also an insanely nice guy, a prince even.  But the movie DOES something with this.  What used to be something that helped Utena when she is younger has become, not by his own volition but hers, something that restrains and limits her.  She learns to let him go, not only because he is obviously dead and they can no longer be together and she needs to learn to accept and let go of the past in order to move forward, but because she is now a strong young woman who can be her own prince, and not a helpless little girl. 

What is Manga!Touga's purpose?  Eye-candy like the other two Tougas and to serve as the romantic rival to Anthy who all the fans are supposed to root for.  He's the voice of reason in Ohtori, and we are supposed to love him and mourn for him because he doesn't get the girl of his dreams who he so richly deserves, and is frightfully misunderstood and deep and utterly devoted to his love.  All of his chauvinistic flaws are not worked through and fixed; just glanced over and written off as part of his devil-with-a-heart-of-gold charm.

It smacks of Jacob from Twilight in his appeal.

Just.

No.

Frau Eva wrote:

Lastly, the more I watch the show, the more Juri and Shiori annoy the shit out of me. Juri, we've all been through it, but really, YEARS? You basically act like a frosty bitch all the time to everyone because a girl didn't like you in middle school. Get over it. Go listen to some My Chemical Romance, dear God. Shiori wasn't even at the same school for a couple of years, and you didn't change at all.  And it's not even like it's this is a one-in-a-lifetime girl you're missing out on. Hmm, a girl so crushingly insecure that she'll basically lie and cheat and do whatever she can just so someone with a penis will pay attention to her. That's a totally rare and valuable commodity there.

AGREED.


Seriously.  Worse things happen. 

As a Saionji fan, I can say the same about him.  I mean, let it go, dude.  The only defense I can have for him is that Touga was around him as he grew up, always there to passively and actively cut him down; their friendship didn't just end suddenly, it slowly rotted. 

That and I feel the same gender-retarded part of society that enforces Saionji to channel his issues into a matter of manly pride and not emotional weakness, to keep trying to best Touga and not give up like a wuss, is the same that has subtly told Juri that, as a woman, not having a relationship from middle work out should be devastating. 

That and the show doesn't go to great lengths to make us pity Saionji like it does Juri.   We don't feel confused sympathizing for or with her.  Her angst is only self-harming (on the surface) and is very pretty to look at.

No crying in the shower for Saionji, though, he smacks people instead and gets crazy-angry.  We don't like thinking that there is something frightfully human in him that we may relate to.


EDIT FOR SUM MOAR.

Concerning the Utena and Anthy not kissing in the series, it is true that Chiho Saito was vehemently against it, but I can't say I'm not pleased with the result.  Instead of their relationship being defined by typical romance, which Ikuhara was afraid of because when you introduce romance, people tend to focus on that and not anything else, their's was defined by a love no less about being a relationship but that was more based on trust, helping and understanding, symbolized by holding hands instead of steamy or sweet kisses.  It also ties in so well with how the series ends and the foreshadowing in the intro song.  The prince and princess don't kiss in the end to show the audience that all is well and that Utena and Anthy love each other, because this series is challenging those archetypes, and we know these two character's and their relationship well enough to be able to tell that they are in love without that gesture.

So the end result is a love so wonderful and hard to define, and brilliant because of it.  It focuses on what love is, and not so much on how it is expressed.  I've never seen it equaled in any other anime.

Not that this was what Chiho Saito cared about at all.  She just didn't want girl kissys. 

And we still get our kiss in the movie, which is Ikuhara both having fun and FU'ing Chiho.  Also, possibly my favorite thing about it is that it's drawn so that their faces are level with each other.  No one kissing down and one kissing up. And their faces don't look slightly pained with desire or conflict or blushing and overly cute.  They both look so infinitely happy and without pretense. Fucking amazing.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (11-21-2009 04:42:25 PM)