I remember hearing Utena described at Otakon as Nietzsche-que. Then again, you can describe anything as Nietzsche-que it seems. Nobody knows what the guy was saying.

This thread is from one month before I joined, can you believe I missed it until now? I could go on for DAYS about this (no seriously, DAYS), but I'll restrict myself to responding to what's been said so far.

1. The Death of God. Yes. Clearly, Nietzsche was not being literal here, he never believed in god in the first place. So if you view Dios as a sort of Platonic ideal, an unreachable pinnacle of nobility, then you can draw some pretty good parallels here. I go back and forth myself, sometimes I see it this way, and sometimes I see Dios as a person who tried to live up to those ideals and failed. And sometimes I see AKIO as someone who tried to live up to those ideals and failed. After all, Akio himself claims there was no Dios, right? Not like he'd have a reason to...i dunno...LIE ABOUT IT. Anyway. I'm afraid you either misunderstood some other things or we're having semantic issues though. The Nietzschean ubermensch is NOT a hedonist. In fact, he's not something that can be described in any simple terms, like an irrational number. He is what he is, and that's all. He's almost a Platonic ideal himself actually. Or perhaps he could be described as a new archetype in the Jungian sense. But it is true the the ubermensch would seek "the revolution of the world", while at the same time BEING the revolution of the world. So Utena as ubermensch does have some possibilities. Certainly she's shown a disregard for the old values by wearing a boy's uniform, but on the other hand we have her hypocritical "cheating is bad" stance too. Problematic. But of course, Nietzsche didn't really see the ubermensch as a real person either, just a target.

2. I think I've addressed this elsewhere, but while Nietzsche was indeed bitter toward women, that was hardly all his writing was about.

3. Betcha I get to add this to my thread kill count in 30 days.

Stormcrow wrote:

But it is true the the ubermensch would seek "the revolution of the world", while at the same time BEING the revolution of the world. So Utena as ubermensch does have some possibilities. Certainly she's shown a disregard for the old values by wearing a boy's uniform, but on the other hand we have her hypocritical "cheating is bad" stance too. Problematic. But of course, Nietzsche didn't really see the ubermensch as a real person either, just a target.

I haven't read any Nietzsche, but I have read about Nietzsche, and this seems off base to me.  The ubermensch casts aside "revealed morality" whose rightness is a faith object in favor of a morality based on reason and love.  He is categorically not a nihilist who rejects all morals.  Isn't it possible that the ubermensch would see a dress code as a meaningless artifact of a dead morality, yet agree based on his own moral code that cheating is wrong?

Here's a different question, though.  Does the ubermensch have to be self-conscious?  I don't think Utena has spent a second picking apart the old morality or constructing her own personal code of behavior in terms more precise than "never lose your strength or nobility."  The idea of her sitting down to write Zarathustra is laughable.  Does that exclude her from ubermenschocity?  Or does the fact that her behavior proceeds genuinely from her instinct qualify her?  And if it's the latter, is it a problem that her instinct derives in part from what Dios/Akio told her was virtuous when she was like five?

Man, I want in on this discussion. I have to go pull out all my phliosophy books from last year. I've always thought of Nietzsche as kind of an ass, but a lecture on him this semester gave me a new point of view...or at least made me reconsider, given that maybe I understood what the hell he was talking about a little better. Don't get me wrong. I'm still not completely sure what he was going on about, but I'm very for the whole people not being sheep thing. And I think that you can see that in SKU. The students, most of them...the whole world of Ohtori is a safe place, a lie which keeps the people in line and helps them swallow the fact that they've given up their independence by being there. Everyone plays the game except Utena, and in the end, Anthy. They are the two who decide not to be sheep, and therefore, they break the illusion.

That's as good as I can do off the top of my head at 4:30 in the morning.

Also, didn't several philosophers have problems with women? It seems that way to me, with the exception of Sartre.

Utena can not be "Übermensch" - she did not decide it to be him. She only follows path of the "Prince" - "the God", if You want. She is submissive to an illusion of the Castle, of the (un)reality, she has no will but attempts to protect Himemiya. Even she is courageous, she is weak at all.

satyreyes wrote:

Stormcrow wrote:

But it is true the the ubermensch would seek "the revolution of the world", while at the same time BEING the revolution of the world. So Utena as ubermensch does have some possibilities. Certainly she's shown a disregard for the old values by wearing a boy's uniform, but on the other hand we have her hypocritical "cheating is bad" stance too. Problematic. But of course, Nietzsche didn't really see the ubermensch as a real person either, just a target.

I haven't read any Nietzsche, but I have read about Nietzsche, and this seems off base to me.  The ubermensch casts aside "revealed morality" whose rightness is a faith object in favor of a morality based on reason and love.  He is categorically not a nihilist who rejects all morals.  Isn't it possible that the ubermensch would see a dress code as a meaningless artifact of a dead morality, yet agree based on his own moral code that cheating is wrong?

Here's a different question, though.  Does the ubermensch have to be self-conscious?  I don't think Utena has spent a second picking apart the old morality or constructing her own personal code of behavior in terms more precise than "never lose your strength or nobility."  The idea of her sitting down to write Zarathustra is laughable.  Does that exclude her from ubermenschocity?  Or does the fact that her behavior proceeds genuinely from her instinct qualify her?  And if it's the latter, is it a problem that her instinct derives in part from what Dios/Akio told her was virtuous when she was like five?

Nietzsche admired the "forthright heart," the sincere, guileless heart. And with regard to the morality based on love, one of his famous quotes is "that which transpires out of love takes place beyond good and evil."

I'm opposed to the idea of the ubermensch, because it glorifies the messenger to the point of refusing to evaluate or even understand the message.

Nietzsche was all about the self and the body replacing the soul and Platonism in general. He felt that the Objective Man, the Pure Man of Ideas and Perception, was nothing but a tool. "A most exquisite tool, but only a tool." Ideally, the true free spirit would create their own values rather than being devoid of values. His distinction between a philosopher and a priest is that a priest fits into the frame of a received canon, while his idealized philosopher CREATES the canon.

Utena can not be "Übermensch" - she did not decide it to be him. She only follows path of the "Prince" - "the God", if You want. She is submissive to an illusion of the Castle, of the (un)reality, she has no will but attempts to protect Himemiya. Even she is courageous, she is weak at all.

I think... that the "prince" ideal arose out of her desire to protect Anthy, to save her from the jealousy of the weak-minded. Originally, it was the means and not the end; and when Anthy stabbed her for wanting to be a prince after everything, she still retained that desire. That kind of principled, empathetic elitism is completely Nietzschean.

Last edited by Overlord Morgus (03-17-2012 10:50:24 AM)

Atropos, I'm a little confused, and I wonder if you can elaborate a little   You say that you're opposed to the idea of the ubermensch.  What, specifically, are you opposed to?  Are you opposed to people who construct their own morality?  Are you opposed to glorifying people who construct their own morality?  Are you opposed to inventing a word that describes people who construct their own morality?

Funny, I was always under the impression the ubermensch was a tight rope walker.

I think Nietzsche can be at times fairly petty and inconsequential as far as philosophers go. Actually, I don't have that much respect for philosophy in general; the laws of Man have nothing on the laws of Nature.

Last edited by Overlord Morgus (03-17-2012 08:45:18 PM)

I don’t know anything about him either but:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nietzsche/

Take note of the doctrine of eternal recurrence. Just off the top of my head the true disciple is Akio. If Utena were a true Nietzschean she would not have cared about Wakaba or Anthy, in my uninformed opinion.

Last edited by brian (03-19-2012 07:04:32 PM)

Anthiena wrote:

I need the read up on this because I can follow but have little to say to expand on it. I am not so widely read as some and I know I am smart enough to catch the gist of this sort of thing. Chalk up more books to read for self-education. I love this fandom.

You and me both . Every time I get to thinking I'm a clever kid, somebody starts in with a discussion of stuff I don't know that really makes me wish I did. As it is, I only know the basics when it comes to Nietzsche, I've never made a proper study of it. But if there was ever a good reason to want to study philosophy, better indulging a friendly discussion of Utena is probably it!

Considering that Nietzsche's ultimate stance was that neither master morality(Akio, completely self-obsessed and a firm believer in distinctions between the intrinsic worth of different people) or slave morality(Dios, who devoted himself to anyone in need regardless of who they were) would allow mankind to reach its full potential, does that mean Utena's revolution is the revaluation of morals?