brian wrote:

Lightice wrote:

I'm afraid that Anthy as an abused victim is the most boring scenario available, ... I've been told that this is more or less what she is in the manga, which is one of the reasons I have no desire to buy it, but it certainly doesn't hold true for the series' version.

Actually in the manga Anthy explains her motivations better than almost anywhere else. She says (I'm paraphrasing, "It's not about will, it's about all that he has done for me, through the ages. I want you to be happy Utena, that is my will."

Comparing manga Anthy to anime Anthy is one big no-no. Anime Anthy doesn't sleep with Akio because the things he's done for her, because he hasn't done anything for her. >>;

Also Anthy could well be emotionally younger than she is -- remember the Rabbit Dance?

I think calling Anthy emotionally younger is really quite hard to say. After all the time she was the Rose Bride, she became the most mature [adult] person in Ohtori. On the other hand, it can be said that wasn't entirely her and that the real Anthy, not the Witch or the Princess, was locked up in her coffin up until the last episode since she was 7, and hadn't grown since then. In any case, I don't think the Rabbit Dance was a display of innocence or childhood. It was symbolic of how everyone in Ohtori was being controlled by her, 'dancing' according to her will.

Last edited by Hina the Prince (03-12-2007 05:44:58 AM)

Movie manga spoiler Ahoy!

Hina the Prince wrote:

Comparing manga Anthy to anime Anthy is one big no-no. Anime Anthy doesn't sleep with Akio because the things he's done for her, because he hasn't done anything for her. >>;

Who made up that rule!!?? I will not be constrained by these dumb rules! I will cast them aside! I will break free of all that constrains me! I will fly up to the castle in the sky and seek insight from all sources, closing my eyes to none!

Uh, where was I?

Of course Akio was often kind to Anthy. If there were nothing but unreleting cruelty and abuse even the most abject creature would flee. That's partly what makes her situation so insidious. Akio is kind to her except when it is inconvenient. He tells her the truth except when there is some advantage in lying. He loves her so long as it meshes with his self-love. He treasures her until someone he likes better comes along.

Anyway I have many big problems with the movie for many of the same reasons many other people do. Nonetheless there is a lot of insight to be gained from the movie.

People may grouse about manga Juri but it's in the manga that Touga shows real complexity and where Saoinji and Kozue get to be human beings instead of raving psychopaths. It is in the anime most of all where Anthy is most robotic. Utena is drawn the best in the manga, she almost glows with sincerity and spiritual power. In the manga Utena and Anthy come closest to being goddess-like. By contrast, in the movie manga, Utena and Anthy are drawn to look like deluded and disturbed teen-agers. I don't like that as much but it's all good.

In the movie manga Anthy gets some of her best lines in the whole Utenaverse. She gets to tell off Juri, Miki, and Utena. But her best dialog of all is:

U: I want to know every side of you...your problems and your secrets...and about being the Rose Bride! I want us to be the kind of friends...who have nothing to hide from each other.
A: If you only know...the real me...you'd never bother with such sweet talk. That's why I don't believe in words. It's what we do that never lies.

The people who turn their noses up at the mangas or even the movie are depriving themselves of so much!

Last edited by brian (03-12-2007 06:14:03 PM)

brian wrote:

In the movie manga Anthy gets some of her best lines in the whole Utenaverse. She gets to tell off Juri, Miki, and Utena.

And Akio, too! ;D

brian wrote:

But her best dialog of all is:

U: I want to know every side of you...your problems and your secrets...and about being the Rose Bride! I want us to be the kind of friends...who have nothing to hide from each other.
A: If you only know...the real me...you'd never bother with such sweet talk. That's why I don't believe in words. It's what we do that never lies.

I loved that part!
But tell me, wasn't she actually moved by what Utena said? I remember that later on when Utena was duelling someone (Touga? I can't remember) she said something like "I really meant what I said, they weren't just words" and Anthy sort of changed her attitude towards her.

I have to read the manga again. I can barely remember anything.

Wow I never thought manga versus series would be the bone of contention around here.

I understand you're fired up Hina, but as you know already, that was an especially nasty outburst. Admittedly though, brian, you have a habit of being a little excessive in your defense of the manga. You're one of the few, well really the only regular here that prefers it or knows it quite as well, and you know that puts you as an exception, but it doesn't need to be a position you have to defend, and you do so preemptively, which gets everyone on the attack. (For example, discussing what you felt the merits of Saionji in the manga were would get us all a lot farther than attacking series Saionji.)

Everyone's going to have their preferences as to which is 'better', but the manga, movie, and series are all such grossly different beasts. I know most of us feel one's better, but using that opinion as a basis of argument isn't going to get anything done, it'll just make us bicker. We don't need that! Let's try to get off the attack here, there's a lot to say about comparing the manga and series and it's not getting said because instead we're arguing about which sucks and which doesn't.

From what I can see, a major problem is we keep trying to approach both the same way, when the manga clearly isn't the same sort of development and analysis party. It's not, however without merit. I'll give it that it's in many ways far more coherent than the series. We certainly know more about Akio and Dios in it. I also tend to think, as is the case with most shoujo manga, that the characters were the vehicle for the story, where in the series, the story was more a vehicle for the characters. The narrative in the manga makes more sense perhaps because it was emphasized over the characters, where in the series, the story is more of a loose thread connecting the personalities involved.

That or we can move this thread to IFD and you kids can flame each other into kingdom come. But I'd be kinda sad about it.

Maarika wrote:

I like series!Anthy the most, too. Manga Anthy was a lot less complicated and most of her complicity was revealed to us through the story, not through the character itself as it happened in the series. I think manga!Anthy wasn't living by Utena's will, at least not in the end. We see a drastic change in her in the end, where she does indeed dress like Utena, but was it really because she clings to Utena so much? I think that was all an allegory. Anthy wearing that uniform symbolises her own desire to live a more noble life, just like Utena did. Being a prince means living ones's life bravely and heroically and isn't this something that could help people out during the hardest times in their life? You sort of contradict yourself. :/ When you said Anthy was copying Utena's personality, then that would mean Anthy's personality is like Utena's in the end (which is somewhat true). And then how does that make her a personality-less character? 'Cause if it did, then the same thing could be said about Utena...

How do I contradict myself? :\ Anthy has no personality of her own, so she goes around copying other people. It's different to Utena, because Utena chose one thing she wanted to be the most and lived by that ideal to the very end. Anthy just picks her favorite person for the time being and acts the way that person acts, or would expect her to act.

And another thing I can't look past is that you said how Anthy doesn't act like a human. I think the Anthy we see in the manga comes closest to a human than any other Anthy. This is because all her weaknesses that you mentioned are so typical for an average human.

Yes, but when all she has are weaknesses and no strengths, that doesn't make her very realistic, now does it? Anime Anthy is much more human because she acts the least like a human. If you've been living for god-knows-how-many years in such unbearable agony, would you still act like a normal teenager?

I liked seeing the change in Anthy in the manga, because in the end she was free to do whatever she wanted

And what she wanted is to be exactly like Utena. That's my point. In the end of the anime she was herself, and that's a major difference.

Oh oh! Please PM me if you want to flame me. Let's keep this thread clean.

I apologize if you get the impression of "RAR MUST BASH EVERYONE WITH DIFFERENT OPINIONS" from me, I really don't mean to flame. I was just born with excessive amounts of sarcasm. I'll try to be nice.

Last edited by Hina the Prince (03-13-2007 11:20:04 AM)

I appreciate all the chivalry on my behalf but I take no offense at all at Hina's posting. This is a matter of taste and nothing different from all the other exclamations from everybody else about their tastes, no problem. Hina has edgier tastes and that's fine.

In fact I am not trying to say the manga is better, just better in some things. It is a bit too Shoujo-ish, even for my taste. My basic goal is to show that the four stories are not all that different from each other, it's basically all the same story told in four different ways and I am trying to find commonalities so that we can drill down to the core essentials. You have to be open-minded about all four to understand any of them. They all illuminate each other.

For example, Saoinji's character gets successively narrower through the four stories. If you truly want to understand him most fully then the anime is your best bet but you have to go all the way back to the manga to see him as someone who is able treat Utena and Anthy with respect. Juri gets developed much more in the anime, and in the movie manga she narrows again but we also see  a new and different aspect of her character than we did before, one that is surprising but is also fitting.

I am trying to find the core myth.

Last edited by brian (03-13-2007 12:47:21 PM)

brian wrote:

If you truly want to understand him most fully then the anime is your best bet but you have to go all the way back to the manga to see him as someone who is able treat Utena and Anthy with respect.

Actually I never got the impression series Saionji didn't respect Utena. Dislikes her? Wants to stick her to the wall with a pitchfork? Yes. But I don't think he necessarily disrespects her. After all, she handed Touga his ass on a platter.

Anthy...not so much. But nothing Saionji would respect in a person is an attribute of hers, where Utena does have qualities Saionji would approve of, though he'd sooner disembowel himself with a spork than admit it.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

So, no, not rape...  But certainly a very bad and very psychologically unhealthy (psuedo-)choice on Anthy's behalf; one which further warped her.

This sounds about where I'm at. I think the problem with Akio, where it concerns both Anthy and Utena, is you have to decide at what point coercion becomes a robbing of consent. I wouldn't put it past Akio for a second to rape someone where it's advantageous to do so, but in neither case does he benefit by the psychological state that would create. He gets what he wants from them when they feel like they consented to it. But that he's coerced them into something Utena at least probably wouldn't have initiated on her own makes it count to some as rape. Anthy it's harder to say. I don't think the initiation into that relationship was nearly as manipulative as it would be done now. It probably happened before Akio was quite as set in these ways. (Although that doesn't say much...)

A lot of those people would also argue there are no circumstances under which, given the age and power disparity involved, you could consider Touga a consenting partner with him.

I'm starting to believe that we should either have separate forums for discussion about the series, movie and manga, or remember to tag the topics in the way that leaves no question for doubt. It becomes quite disruptive for the discussion to end up debating about completely different incarnation of the character than the other guy. While sharing similarities, you can't explain the actions of series-Anthy with the actions of manga- or movie-Anthy. They are separate continuums and should only be compared in threads dedicated for that purpose.

I wouldn't put it past Akio for a second to rape someone where it's advantageous to do so, but in neither case does he benefit by the psychological state that would create.

Personally I doubt that series-Akio would rape anyone. For one thing, he doesn't need to - he can seduce anyone who passes is fancy with little effort. And for another thing, while he barely has a shred of his old princeliness left, he's still holding up some appearances. He wouldn't rape anyone for the banal reason that it doesn't fit his style - it would break the illusions he's keeping up, for himself as well as for others. There's nothing moral about it to him, though.

Giovanna wrote:

rhyaniwyn wrote:

So, no, not rape...  But certainly a very bad and very psychologically unhealthy (psuedo-)choice on Anthy's behalf; one which further warped her.

This sounds about where I'm at. I think the problem with Akio, where it concerns both Anthy and Utena, is you have to decide at what point coercion becomes a robbing of consent. I wouldn't put it past Akio for a second to rape someone where it's advantageous to do so, but in neither case does he benefit by the psychological state that would create. He gets what he wants from them when they feel like they consented to it. But that he's coerced them into something Utena at least probably wouldn't have initiated on her own makes it count to some as rape. Anthy it's harder to say. I don't think the initiation into that relationship was nearly as manipulative as it would be done now. It probably happened before Akio was quite as set in these ways. (Although that doesn't say much...)

A lot of those people would also argue there are no circumstances under which, given the age and power disparity involved, you could consider Touga a consenting partner with him.

Ah, I think you've hit it on the head for me there, Gio. I've stayed out of this conversation because I've been at odds with the general consensus but unable to articulate why...and now I realise. It's because I don't see the scenario in a real-life light...because like you say, an acting chairman sleeping with the student council president? Sleaze to the max in real life, particularly from the male/male aspect of it. (God, I can see the headlines in The Sun now...give me something interesting to read on the train in the mornings, anyway...) So, with that in mind, I think that's one reason why I can't accept the Akio/Anthy sexual relationship as ever being "rape." From an IRL-perspective it's screwed up and probably would be something at least roughly equivalent to manipulative coercion. But then...there is nobody like Anthy or Akio IRL (at least, I hope not!), if we look at it from the viewpoint of "cursed siblings of indeterminate age who fuck each other while fucking the world at large." Which isn't to say we can't use models of our own societies while analysing their actions and emotions; I mean, half the fun of this show is that so many of us identify with the characters in a variety of ways. I sometimes think it should scare me, how many people I have known to say that Anthy reminds me of themselves, but...er, I've said it myself. Zing!

[coughs] At any rate, I've never thought of their relationship as involving what I would call rape. Oh, there's coercion and manipulation to the max, but I think if either of them outright said "NO" the other would stop. They use sex as currency in their powerplay, and as Gio says, I don't think Akio would find raping Anthy would get him anywhere...or as Lightice says, Akio likely wouldn't think raping anyone would be a valid use of his time or resources. The mental state of the individual would be messy in a way that's not biased towards him, so why bother? He wants to seduce them into being dependant on him as their prince, not as their beast. Or so I would think.

Personally, I think Anthy's sealing away of Dios's "power" was closer to rape than anything we see him do to her, but then you could seriously debate how compliant he actually was in that situation anyway, so...let's not get me started.

Woah. I missed a lot. This is what I get for sleeping for twelve hours.

I've yet to read the manga.. only because I'm still trying to get the first volume. Then I'll have all of them, and I can start reading. I have read the movie manga, after I watched the movie for the first time, and I really liked it. It helped me understand the movie much more. And then when I watched the movie again, I started to like it a lot more. The movie/movie manga to me are like a sweet dessert, while the series is like the main meal/meat and potatoes for me, where I get most of the substance from. I still need to read the regular manga, though. (Although, from what I've heard I doubt I'll like it nearly as much as the others, but I'd still like to read it for myself) And, while I think comparing the characters from the different sources can be kind of difficult, since they're all so different, finding parallels and themes in common isn't a bad idea at all.

I'm glad everyone's calmed down, it seems.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

<snip>

Unfortunately I don't really have time to reply to everything I'd like.  Anthy's character IS complex, in all its incarnations.  (Oops) And it's not that she's Akio's victim.  He was phsychologically harmed by the pivotal events of their pasts as well.  It's just as unhealthy a relationship for him as it is for her.  That's why he wants to victimize her.  And on one tiny level, she won't let him.  She holds a part of herself back from him, from everyone--a part that she is in the end willing to show to Utena.  She is a victim of a hostile world, essentially alienated from everyone and everything.  She is her own victim as well because she (like so many abused women) stays.  And she accepts punishment when she doesn't have to.  She seeks punishment.  It is emotional masochism.

I don't even know where to begin, except I agree with pretty much all you said. I don't think Anthy was raped, but their relationship is very twisted and unhealthy. And Anthy is definitely an emotional masochist. She could have very well let Utena save her in the end, but instead she accepted her punishment of the swords yet again, because she thinks she deserves it.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

And that's how we form our identities--particularly as teenagers--we copy things.  First our parents, then our peers and stereotypes.  We try on identities like clothing (as clothing, in some cases) when we are young.  And if we are lucky, in finding out what fits us the best, we develop an identity.  To say that Utena copying a Prince is good and Anthy copying a Prince is bad is hypocritical.  Utena found that it fit her, and it will probably fit Anthy too--particularly because she's not trying to be a Prince--she has simply come closer to finding out who she is and is wearing the Prince's outfit in homage to the person that helped her.

Oh, word. We all start out by copying others; whether it's copying one person a lot, or just a lot of little things from a lot of people. We all try on different roles, until we find what fits us best and develop our own mesh of roles and our own unique personalities. Even the most unique of people were probably young teenagers who copied someone they idolized.

brian wrote:

It is interesting that Dios is described as turning little girls into Princesses, presumably by making them feel special and loved. In the movie manga Anthy is described as being able to turn anyone she loves into a Prince.

Ooh, that's a very good point! Although, her love for Dios turned him into.. well, Akio, because of what she did to protect him. Hmm. But I think the fact that Anthy has to be a witch makes her fall in love with a "prince" who sees her as a princess instead of a witch. She falls for Utena because Utena doesn't care about her being a witch, she just wants to save her. So you could say Utena's princelyness is what made Anthy fall for her, too. But that's an interesting point.

Sorry for my rambling. I wanted to say much more, but there was so much to respond to, and I have to go shopping now.

Edit: Dessert, not desert.

Last edited by SleepDebtFairy (03-13-2007 04:08:38 PM)

rhyaniwyn wrote:

That doesn't make it healthy, and that's the hallmark of Anthy and Akio's relationship.  It's deeply unhealthy, sick to its core; utterly twisted.

But remember the coffin where the "real" Anthy is--the Anthy walking around is "dead inside."  She probably isn't reacting emotionally like a rape victim, either.  And I doubt she is *completely* miserable during the act, it's probably something she is mostly-indifferent toward, except that the rare affectionate physical contact is at least somewhat pleasant.  But it's not happy, "consensual" sex either.

Here's something I've been thinking about for a while. How would Akio's and Anthy's relationship affect Anthy after she leaves him? Especially in the sexual aspect of it. On the physical level (I'm not getting into the psychological aspects so much), Anthy must have taken at least some pleasure of it, why else would she have "visited her brother" every Saturday (and even more often in the later episodes)? But her brother is not just some brother, he's Akio. I don't think sex with him could be considered unpleasent on the physical level. Anthy seemed to find a lot of comfort in sex, because she didn't have anything else so if she hadn't enjoyed it at least a bit then the whole system she was trapped in would have collapsed. I don't think Akio's and Anthy's relationship was based solely on the sexual aspect of it. I'm also with those who think of it as some sort of power play and sex is used as a tool in it.

Anyways, in the end, Anthy is a normal human, so sexuality is an important part of her (as it is for most people). After she leaves Akio, how is she going to express her sexuality? I think in a sense, Akio corrupted her. Thanks to Akio she was able to see how pleasurable sex could be. I'll have to say this again: on the physical level only. I doubt Anthy could really bring herself to it emotionally (or maybe she was able to do that in the earlier stages of their relationship?). However, it's not like she was completely numb on both physical and emotional level. The emotional numbness probably repealed the physical aspect somewhat, but I think something of it remained anyway. And that something is enough to make someone value sex. Like I said before, sexuality is a very important part of our identity. It's completely natural and it should not be repressed. Then again, sexuality has to be balanced like everything else. Emotional affections are for that, which neither Akio or Anthy really had in their relationship, I think that's also the main reason why their relationship was so unhealthy. Considering all this, I can't imagine Anthy repressing her sexuality. In fact, I think she would be even more open about it. We all know that Anthy was able to handle her emotions once again in the end, but I believe she didn't discard her sexuality on the account of that.

Alright, now I'm going to follow my own logic, so I won't guarantee it makes sense to you. Anyway, I believe Anthy's and Akio's relationship could be considered as one of the reasons why Anthy's and Utena's relationship would likely become sexual in the end (see, I didn't write those paragraphs here without a purpose). Now let's say Anthy and Utena are reunited (which I think was meant to be that way). We know Anthy and Utena already have a very strong emotional bond and that's a very important premise for a healthy sexual relationship. The way I see it is that Anthy and Utena can't keep it platonic forever. Why? Firstly, I'll discard of any gender-based predjudices that have no other purpose than only to be in the way. Going back to Anthy, I said earlier how she is a normal human and that she shouldn't/wouldn't repress her sexuality. Guess what, humans also have urges, and among them are sexual urges, which are not less important than the other urges. I think the same could be said about Utena, but I'm a bit uncertain about her since she seemed quite unaware of her own sexuality for the most part. This is why I think Anthy is more likely to express her sexuality towards Utena. Whether Utena would go along with it is another thing. I suppose she'd either be confused about herself again and then realise what she really is or she would just go along with it. The reason why she would go along with it is that she has emotional back-up, and this time it is sincere, which is also very important. Another thing would be Utena's own sexuality, because she's only human too. So she might as well give in to it, just like Anthy would. Or if that doesn't make sense, then how about this: they both find someone else and have their "normal" sexual relationships with them. Remember though, sexual relationships should be based on emotion affections and bonds. Do you think either of them is willing to go through the trouble to create a bond with someone else? Moreover, could they possible create a bond as strong as their own with someone else? Would they even try to do so? Somehow I doubt it. But then again, that's my logic.

Hina the Prince wrote:

Is it me, or does every other topic derail into some discussion on Utena/Anthy + ending analysis? I swear this is not the first time.

That's 'cause Utena/Anthy rocks the world's socks. Is that a bad thing?

See, I've just done it again!

Actually, I just find it very hard to talk about Anthy without mentioning Utena, and vice versa. And talking about Akio means that you would most likely have to talk about Anthy too and then you'd also have to talk about Utena.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

I do think it's entirely likely that in the early days it was like molestation.  I was particularly moved by the post regarding the child molestation victim.  Anthy's behavior is so often in line with this scenario.  Victims of serial child molestation become very sexualized at an early age and use sex as a way to control others, including their abuser.  Sometimes they do this in a misguided attempt to regain some of their own identity and power, other times to try to protect other prospective victims, and often because their sense of self-worth is now so degraded it hardly matters to them.

She is certainly heavily sexualized in the movie manga. The exploding curry episode is a surprisingly good place  to spot it in the anime. Wakaba jumps on Anthyutena's back. Anthyutena collapses and from the ground smiles back at Wakaba in a way that looks very flirtatious, even almost come-hither. It makes Utena's face look very strange.

It's always good to remember that it is not just Anthy who has undergone a lot of trauma and damage but Utena too. One thing that the movie manga does well is show us an Utena and Anthy who have been through a lot of trauma, been changed a lot, have changed each other, and who are able to give strength to each other. In the final frame, the planetarium is not just a forum of evil and deception but a place of dreams and memories and meditation. Exactly what they were thinking about and remembering is uncertain. Still they exit together to the world outside.

Another revolutionary idea given us from all version is that planetariums are shown as romantic places to take a date.

Last edited by brian (03-16-2007 01:53:34 PM)