Shutin and I have argued about the "Utena becomes the new host of the Swords of Hate" hypothesis before   My bottom line in that conversation was:

I wrote:

To me it's not much of a revolution if Utena has only perpetuated the cycle of one person suffering forever in another person's place -- Dios for maidens, Anthy for Dios, and now Utena for Anthy.  That would be an unsatisfying outcome to me.  It makes Utena just another prince or witch, when I think she's something entirely different and better than either.  I think Utena after the series is likely to be battered and distraught, but alive and sane.

I like your hypothesis much better.  Maybe the destruction in the final episode really is best understood as metaphorical: the swords are destroying illusions and fairy tales, not literal people and objects.  It's sort of a coming-of-age crescendo where instead of attacking princes and witches, the swords attack the idea of princes and witches.  Since the swords themselves are archetypal, the logical conclusion would be that they ended by destroying themselves, which is neat.  But that does leave the question of what happened to Utena!    Any thoughts?

satyreyes wrote:

Shutin and I have argued about the "Utena becomes the new host of the Swords of Hate" hypothesis before   My bottom line in that conversation was:

I wrote:

To me it's not much of a revolution if Utena has only perpetuated the cycle of one person suffering forever in another person's place -- Dios for maidens, Anthy for Dios, and now Utena for Anthy.  That would be an unsatisfying outcome to me.  It makes Utena just another prince or witch, when I think she's something entirely different and better than either.  I think Utena after the series is likely to be battered and distraught, but alive and sane.

I like your hypothesis much better.  Maybe the destruction in the final episode really is best understood as metaphorical: the swords are destroying illusions and fairy tales, not literal people and objects.  It's sort of a coming-of-age crescendo where instead of attacking princes and witches, the swords attack the idea of princes and witches.  Since the swords themselves are archetypal, the logical conclusion would be that they ended by destroying themselves, which is neat.  But that does leave the question of what happened to Utena!    Any thoughts?

I'm glad that you like my hypothesis. I personally feel that since Utena realized princes and princesses were fairytales she grew out of her "prince" illusion and "graduated" into the adult world/real world. She vanished from Ohtori, like Akio said, but she isn't gone, she merely vanished from the world of fairytales and childhood and endless yearning/cycles, etc. Since Ohtori is a place for those, and Utena doesn't live by them anymore, she just vanishes. She grows up. Anthy graduates into the adult/real world as well. Happy ending!

Hi Satyreyes!

To me it's not much of a revolution if Utena has only perpetuated the cycle of one person suffering forever in another person's place

SKU operates on multiple levels of reality, where people/objects might not really exist; while mine is a "textual" interpretation of the events, other inerpretations might work too . . . or they might not.

Just 2 things I've noticed from the series and its director that may (or may not) make your hypothesis invalid:

the swords are destroying illusions and fairy tales, not literal people and objects.

But if that's the case, then Anthy fearfully begging Utena to run away and warning her about the swords will be pointless - even affected/pretentious  - if the swords pose no danger to Utena; in fact, Anthy should've welcomed the swords; but the Anthy in the scene did not show/say any of that.  That and why'd Anthy have to fall out of Utena's grasp (arena broke before the swords hit), and not exit the fairytale with Utena right there and then?  She was clearly moved to be on Utena's side by then . . . why the need to fall and make Utena misunderstood?
script:
Anthy:  Utena-sama!
Utena:  Himemiya...take my hand!
Anthy: You mustn't! Hurry and run away! The swords are...
Utena:  Take my hand! Come on, Himemiya!
Anthy:  You don't understand! If you don't run quickly...
Utena:  Himemiya! Hurry, take my hand!
Anthy:  I beg you.
Utena:  Hurry! Hurry up and take my hand!

Penguindrum, the show that got Ikuhara out of his 14 year anime slumber, is ALL about how there's always a price you must pay if you want to help others, that people sacrificed something of themselves when they help other people (money, memory, lifespan).  I think that says a lot about the director's view on the topic of self-sacrifice.

I myself always think that if helping others come at little to no cost to the helper, then it's not that big a deal at all is it?  For me, Anthy going after Utena to help her post series, such that finally they can both be free and things go "full-circle", is the most beautiful interpretation.  Miles may vary, of course.

Saito-san wrote:
she's in a coma/catatonic state of mind in which she's mentally separated from the real world, and all this starts from right after her parents die, which fits in the whole Dios thing and getting the ring. 

Say . . . this one actually managed not to go against too much of what the series has been show the viewers . . . in coffin=coma . . . hmm . . .

One of the things that truly bugged me about the Swords of Hate and Utena is that Wakaba was shown looking for (and clearly remembering, thus likely ruling out the enchantment to forget thingy) Utena even after the swords rushed our heroine; that, combined with the shadow talk gossiping over her then ending in "not like it matters" regarding Utena's disappearance, sounds to me like a lot of non-duel students had forgotten the popular girl by choice, and that none of the student council went after her despite the game of squash they had.  I know a lot of ppl say this symbolizes moving on and whatnot, but it's cruel to act genuinely friendly to someone, and then ignoring said person while knowing they'd likely be in trouble (that with them all knowing about the duel called revolution and all

And why is Kanae not shown post revolution when even the likes of aiko, yuuko, and the tree stooges were?

And the whole scene at the end actually reminds me more of the forgetting after the Black Rose Saga than anything.

Hi Aine Silveria:

If not for the way the shadows talk and the bit with Wakaba looking to do homework with Utena, I'd agree.  As it is, I think it's significantly different.  Even Akio talks like the students are forgetting Utena on their own, wherever he plainly states that Mikage never existed in the academy's current reality to begin with - I see a big diff. between the ways the two characters' exits.

And if Kanae is indeed dead/comatose, then she would be the only duelist Utena's revolution did not end up "saving" . . . when even the bully insect likes of Keiko gets to be courted playfully . . . argg!!!

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Hi Satyreyes!

To me it's not much of a revolution if Utena has only perpetuated the cycle of one person suffering forever in another person's place

SKU operates on multiple levels of reality, where people/objects might not really exist; while mine is a "textual" interpretation of the events, other inerpretations might work too . . . or they might not.

Just 2 things I've noticed from the series and its director that may (or may not) make your hypothesis invalid:

the swords are destroying illusions and fairy tales, not literal people and objects.

But if that's the case, then Anthy fearfully begging Utena to run away and warning her about the swords will be pointless - even affected/pretentious  - if the swords pose no danger to Utena; in fact, Anthy should've welcomed the swords; but the Anthy in the scene did not show/say any of that.  That and why'd Anthy have to fall out of Utena's grasp (arena broke before the swords hit), and not exit the fairytale with Utena right there and then?  She was clearly moved to be on Utena's side by then . . . why the need to fall and make Utena misunderstood?
script:
Anthy:  Utena-sama!
Utena:  Himemiya...take my hand!
Anthy: You mustn't! Hurry and run away! The swords are...
Utena:  Take my hand! Come on, Himemiya!
Anthy:  You don't understand! If you don't run quickly...
Utena:  Himemiya! Hurry, take my hand!
Anthy:  I beg you.
Utena:  Hurry! Hurry up and take my hand!

Penguindrum, the show that got Ikuhara out of his 14 year anime slumber, is ALL about how there's always a price you must pay if you want to help others, that people sacrificed something of themselves when they help other people (money, memory, lifespan).  I think that says a lot about the director's view on the topic of self-sacrifice.

I myself always think that if helping others come at little to no cost to the helper, then it's not that big a deal at all is it?  For me, Anthy going after Utena to help her post series, such that finally they can both be free and things go "full-circle", is the most beautiful interpretation.  Miles may vary, of course.

Saito-san wrote:
she's in a coma/catatonic state of mind in which she's mentally separated from the real world, and all this starts from right after her parents die, which fits in the whole Dios thing and getting the ring. 

Say . . . this one actually managed not to go against too much of what the series has been show the viewers . . . in coffin=coma . . . hmm . . .

If Anthy frees Utena from the swords later on then who would take the swords? they'd have to go back to Anthy, because she'd be playing the part of prince! it'd go nonstop circles! Also, the point isn't that the swords don't cause any physical damage/pain, because we know that they can, but in this instance, they didn't. Utena had caused a revolution by opening the rose gate/freeing anthy, and part of that revolution is destroying the fairy tale illusion they live in.... not themselves and not transferring them onto Utena. Obviously there is more than one way to view this, but i agree with Satyreyes that if the swords simply moved from afflicting Anthy to afflicting Utena, then what is the point? Also, for the sacrifice part, Utena did sacrifice something of herself: her wanting to make the memory of her prince eternal. She chose to sacrifice all of that/her relationship with her prince and her relationship with akio in order to save anthy.

Last edited by Levi (07-10-2012 09:24:30 PM)

Levi wrote:

I'm glad that you like my hypothesis. I personally feel that since Utena realized princes and princesses were fairytales she grew out of her "prince" illusion and "graduated" into the adult world/real world. She vanished from Ohtori, like Akio said, but she isn't gone, she merely vanished from the world of fairytales and childhood and endless yearning/cycles, etc. Since Ohtori is a place for those, and Utena doesn't live by them anymore, she just vanishes. She grows up. Anthy graduates into the adult/real world as well. Happy ending!

This is essentially how I read things also. It satisfies a lot of what I saw as backstory on Anthy/Akio/Dios playing princes, princesses and witches, and gives one of those nice lessons that nice people like Utena have to learn as part of growing up:

That you can't solve other people's problems by charging in on their behalf.

Which of course, is a very painful, emotional lesson to learn when you care so much about people, as Utena does. Painful also for Anthy, to see someone she had obviously grown to care about, hurt and troubled so, by a situation she feels destined to, and had for so long accepted as such. But she did, and it destroyed her sense of being a prince that can charge in and save the day, and she grew up. This was perhaps the biggest thing in terms of her world-view, that hearkened from make-believe or "childish" mentality. The lesson learned kills our fairy-tale girl-prince Utena.

Akio dismisses the change of thought as futile, as it changes nothing as far as his own view is concerned. After all, she saved no-one, right? She revolutionised nothing, she just drifted off away from the school setting, leaving everyone (himself included) up to their same old thought-patterns and behaviour. Except Anthy, as we see. She's come to realise that she doesn't have to play big brother's games anymore, or do as she's told. It stands (I think) as the only time Anthy was directly instructed by Akio about what she is to do, and she doesn't comply, quite possibly the first time ever, given their very dominant/submissive sibling relationship.

This is for me, a very revolutionary (and empowering) turn of events indeed.

The idea that when you have finally grown up and moved on, seems to be reinforced by Mikage's duel, and how his own little world of illusion is torn down, ultimately ending in his disappearance (and him being forgotten / never even recalled in the first place). The remainder of the cast we have at the end of series, all seem to have plenty of their own hang-ups still, which I'd assume, following this, come from less than adult perspectives on their own situations, and so still keep them at Ohtori Academy.

Utena is ambiguous though and we're all free to view it how we see it. emot-smile

Yeah . . . for me, when I see Akio referring to the swords's effects on Anthy (while they're riding Akio Car) as the World, I kinda see them as rampant forces in the Outside World; whereas they'd be actual swords in Ohtori, they show up as other things in the outside world - ignorant viewpoints, phobias, discriminations . . . basically all the things in the real world that induces real world mob lynching (it's still happening in our world).  The way I see it, Akio's Ohtori actually "buffers" the ignorance-based hatred of the world, turning them into swords that can infest people; whereas in the real world, it will be the negative attitudes, hostilities, cruelities from the people all around that could damage/traumatize Utena and/or other characters.  I always figure Utena, her beliefs shaken by her misunderstanding that she failed Anthy, will easily fall prey to the hatred of the swords/real world ignorant people, and can only be empowered again when Anthy showed up in her revolutionized state showing her that she succeeded in saving her with unconditional friendship and love; that, and two against a hostile world stands a much better chance than just one.