I'd agree with you that they aren't actually in a sexual relationship during the course of the series.

HOWEVER

Inappropriate sibling relationships is certainly a strong motif in the show. And I do think that the twins' relationship is rather inappropriate,at least from my judgement (I'm always the Utena in these conversations. Never understood how siblings work). Ignoring all the emotional baggage, Miki's overprotection, Kozue's abandonment issues, etc. and getting to stright to the libido, I feel that there's a sexual desire there, far moreso that with Nanami and Touga, as Nanami's statements about her brother stem from her ignorance of sexuality. It's definately there on Kozue's part, and I honestly think it's with Miki too and he feels guilty about it. I've always thought of Anthy as Kozue's stand-in for Miki, "I can't sleep with my sister, so I'll go after someone that I can!" There's something ver fragmented about their relationship and I think that degree of sexual feelings in addition to the whole lost innocence of childhood and unfulfilled ideals led the twins to where they are now.

In truth they never give you any real evidence it did or didn't happen, the closest is Kozue's touching his ear in his sleep and then being pissed Anthy saw. However a moment like that can speak volumes. I would say it's highly unlikely they have a sexual relationship during the series, but it's hard deny, given the series and the emotional states of the characters, that there never was. I think, perhaps, there was some childhood experimentation; innocent but still not proper. Judging from how they are now, Kozue is the one that wanted to continue it, which makes sense given her loose morals and their stark contrast to Miki, who would have stopped such a thing as soon as he knew what it was they were doing.

It wouldn't be surprising at all to think their experimentation was also a search for intimacy. It doesn't sound like their parents were too present in their lives. (No one's were!)

azuresquirrel wrote:

I've always been meaning to write something about the influence (or rather lack thereof) of parents in SKU, but I haven't because 1. lack of time and 2. I honestly can't figure out why it's significant that parents are so absent in the series. Utena is obvious with the whole orphan hero archetype, but with everyone else? It's something I've always been curious about.

Someone really really needs to. It's been on my essay list for ages now.

As far as the lack of parents in the show goes, maybe it's to develop a Lord of the Flies kind of atmosphere.  Allowing children to do as they will without being held back by adults?

Alert!  Beware of Freud

Hmmmm, SKU is extremely surreal/dream-like and filled with sexual transgressions and broken taboos.  As dreams are the product of the sub-conscious violently uninhibited id, I think SKU is setting itself up as a dream to be the playground of the id, unconstrained by the super-ego.  Parents could be seen as the super-ego, "...a symbolic internalization of the father figure and cultural regulations." (I Wikipedia)  Without them, the children, as the id, are allowed to run rampant with agression and sexuality.  Even the person who seems to be the oldest and could be a father figure, Akio, turns out to be in a state of self-imposed infantilism, I think, refusing to deal with the world as it is (somewhat Peter Pan gone awry, I guess).

Last edited by Coin (10-19-2006 11:43:10 PM)

Coin wrote:

As far as the lack of parents in the show goes, maybe it's to develop a Lord of the Flies kind of atmosphere.  Allowing children to do as they will without being held back by adults?

Alert!  Beware of Freud

Hmmmm, SKU is extremely surreal/dream-like and filled with sexual transgressions and broken taboos.  As dreams are the product of the sub-conscious violently uninhibited id, I think SKU is setting itself up as a dream to be the playground of the id, unconstrained by the super-ego.  Parents could be seen as the super-ego, "...a symbolic internalization of the father figure and cultural regulations." (I Wikipedia)  Without them, the children, as the id, are allowed to run rampant with agression and sexuality.  Even the person who seems to be the oldest and could be a father figure, Akio, turns out to be in a state of self-imposed infantilism, I think, refusing to deal with the world as it is (somewhat Peter Pan gone awry, I guess).

You have satisfied my inner psychology dork so much.

There is a huge lack of parenting in the series and Ohtori does have a very Peter Pan-like feel to it, as shown by Tokiko's visit when she aged but no one else remaining in Ohtori did. Come to think of it, there aren't many teachers, either. The only ones that come to mind for me at the moment is the principal that tried to talk to Juri, the guidance counselor (? Or whatever she was) that nagged Utena about her clothing, and the random coach that Nanami talked to briefly. Then again, Akio is an adult. But as Anthy said about Akio in the last episode, maybe everyone in Ohtori are still in their coffins. Maybe leaving Ohtori means growing up, and that's what Utena did.. Because if you stay in your coffin, you aren't going to grow up and move forward.

But on topic about the Miki/Kozue thing, I wouldn't be surprised if there was something that went on in the past, but not now. (At least not on Miki's side) The way Miki acts reeks of guilt. Miki is someone who wants to do what is "right" and culturally acceptable, and Kozue does what she wants. They're very much like the superego and id themselves.

Last edited by SleepDebtFairy (10-19-2006 11:55:13 PM)

I don't expect SKU to be blatant about its issues, so I take a lot from the  visual cues and implications. Miki's romantic attraction toward Anthy, who sets herself up to be a replacement sister for him, has more than a few incestuous vibes running through it. He's entirely focused on Kozue as he remembers her from childhood. It's his motivation for the duels, his 'Shining Thing'. He's not as visible about it as Kozue, who is viciously protective of her brother to the point of pushing teachers down flights of stairs and actively flaunting her sexuality and sexual reputation in order to keep Miki entirely focused on her, but I can see hints of it in him, too. I don't believe they were having a relationship during the series aside from what was shown. (In the Akio car? Who KNOWS.)

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

There is a huge lack of parenting in the series and Ohtori does have a very Peter Pan-like feel to it, as shown by Tokiko's visit when she aged but no one else remaining in Ohtori did. Come to think of it, there aren't many teachers, either. The only ones that come to mind for me at the moment is the principal that tried to talk to Juri, the guidance counselor (? Or whatever she was) that nagged Utena about her clothing, and the random coach that Nanami talked to briefly.

And the VP that was trying to get Akio to transfer him to Amsterdam.

I agree though, there's something creepy about the degree to which these children are forced to be self-reliant. Even the people who have positions of authority don't come across as guardian figures in the least, including the two parents we see. Kanae's mom...well yeah. Not so great at the being a good mom if she's tapping her daughter's husband-to-be.

And Miki and Kozue's? Well he doesn't paint a very good picture of himself, does he? Marrying a woman he's never introduced to his children, and then announcing it with no concern to their comfort? But then why not; it's not like they have to interact with her. Or him.

It's strange to play out a fairy tale of morality and nobility on a stage populated with ids, but perhaps the idea then is that Utena is special because she developed a moral system beyond hedonism or choking guilt.

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

Miki's car ride always interested me, with how Kozue was there but he was imagining Anthy there, and him driving. I don't know if that car represents having sex or not, but damn is it full of sexual suggestiveness.

I would say it's at the least supposed to represent the desire to. I doubt it's a coincidental parallel that Miki sees himself in Akio's place where his sister and then Anthy sit. But I think in the last duel, it's not only about his desire for Anthy and/or Kozue, but finally about the maturity and departure from oppressive adults that it suggests. He badmouths Akio and expresses a distrust of him (on account of his age), and then imagines himself in his place. You could relate him to Tsuwabuki there, except his desire to grow up is much more complex, dark, and riddled with a desire not to.

Perhaps in the end both the sex and the perception of authority lead to Miki's cracking a little, and wanting to shed some of his passivity. He's surrounded by people who, if not more mature, are far more assertive than he is, and to his eyes, they get rewarded for it and he stays behind. He's kinda like Wesley Crusher! (lol)

Sanguine_Rose wrote:

I agree. I always saw Miki's 'dream sequence' with him driving the car with Anthy as a desire to grow up, be his own man and, to put this bluntly, grow some balls. Poor Miki is so naieve he lets people manipluate him.

The problem there being that Miki has realized he lets people manipulate him. I think early on he was in a more comfortable state of denial, using his innocence to stay in a comfort zone that might not otherwise have been there given his intelligence and how surrounded by older people he is. His last duel is where a lot of that forced ignorance finally collapses, and he gets in a position Saionji's spent the whole series in. He sees the wheels being turned without his permission, but unlike Saionji, who by that point has given up any attempt to force them, Miki's still shooting in the dark, hoping to find some sense of control over the course of events, or power in his own life. In the end though, it wasn't the adult that was spinning his wheels.

I never had siblings so please take anything I say with a teaspoon of salt.

But it's my understanding that most (vast vast majority) siblings do not end up wanting to bone each other because they have grown up together and see each other's faults and moments of mundanity. (Westermarck effect) They don't seem so hot any more if you have to nag at them about cleaning the room or tell them that the money they borrowed is overdue. All people have unpleasant sides to them, and the understanding of that in a sibling relationship normally turns you off.

The only way that it works in a fairy tale is because everyone is so idealized. Miki, Juri, Touga, are all such awesome princely characters that your initial reaction is immediate adoration. Touga said it best in response to the only mundanely wicked seitokai member. Why would I want to date a boring common girl like you?

So my response to this OTP is. Somewhat unrealistic, but extremely hot!

Yay, butting in into a long dead thread. Sorry!

Just wanted to give an insight into my opinion (not that it was relevant... )
I never really believed that there had been a sexual relationship between Miki and Kozue, mainly because Miki hardly seems the type - although many of the opinions expressed here do make sense!

For me, the tension between them stemmed from their different goals...
While Kozue often showed almost obvious advances towards Miki and also judging from her sexual aggressive behaviour, I don't think it's farfetched to assume she'd have liked to enter into a sexual(-ish) relationship with Miki.
However, Miki always gave me the impression that he'd rather restore their brother-sister-relationship that was lost in the past - and nothing more. His problematic behaviour towards girls/women no doubt originated from his estrangement with Kozue. Since he aimed at getting close to her again, he always had her in the back of his mind - so when he "pursued" Anthy's love, it might have been his bad conscience which always reminded him of Kozue and how he also had something different to "take care of", before working on his relationship with other women.

So in the end, they basically wanted the same thing - getting close to each other again - but the dimensions of their goals were different : Kozue was aiming for something sexual whereas Miki wanted to re-establish their brother-sister-relationship and thus, their motives clashed.
I think the bathroom scene in the movie might fit in here, though its been quite a long time since the last time I watched it, so please bear with me if I'm talking gibberish here
It seemed as if Miki didn't really think much about them bathing together ("Hey, we're siblings!") whereas Kozue might have interpreted it differently, which maybe also played a part in the razorblade-to-throat result.

This might of course be totally off, but I like to think of it that way.

Last edited by Saorin (01-04-2011 07:40:29 AM)

There’s no real evidence in the series about this but here’s my idea anyway.
I would agree that Miki and Kozue had a sexual relationship when they were younger the twist is their parents found out and put a stop to it (with possible scolding about how it was wrong). This would explain both siblings’ personalities and how they grew up to view sex.

Miki - would have sensed that the relationship was wrong but being so young didn’t know why. When their parents found out and told them it was inappropriate he would have felt ashamed of his actions and got the idea that sex was a bad thing. Now as a teenager he is sexually repressed and longs for the innocence of childhood that he feels he missed out on. Miki also feels he made his parents ashamed of him and tries to right this by being the perfect son (getting good grades, being involved in extracurricular activities and agreeing with his parents).

Kozue - is angry at her parents for stopping the relationship, she feels as though they came between her and Miki, and ruined their brother-sister bond. As Kozue got older she acted out against her parents and became the problem child, she is shown to not care about what her parents think of her and says she doesn’t even need them. As a teenager she also acts out sexually as if to punish her parents for ending the relationship. Kozue has a mind of her own, and even though being told by her parents that sex was bad for a girl that age she would have continued anyway, because not only did it feel good, but it also was her connection to Miki. As a teenager she even learned to use it as a tool to get what she wanted (attention from Miki), the only real reason for her promiscuity.

A bit off topic but just my opinion on how an incestuous sexual relationship would affect Miki and Kozue.