I've always thought the phoenix reference referred to the students (or at least, the main duelists). They were like little piles of ashes waiting to turn back into phoenixes (to be revolutionized). But I'm not sure how to relate that to movie (when, arguably, everyone is literal dead) or manga Ohtori. I'll have the manga in front of me later so maybe I'll think up something then.

The idea of being reborn can also be a general term for someone who goes through a rough time, but becomes a better person because of it. Rebirth is thought of as a positive thing because it insinuates that a life has started anew, but in most cases, to be reborn, a form of death must occur. In various religions and mythology, a person who is reborn dies, and comes back as an infant again.

In a metaphorical sense, however, rebirth can be seen in a situation like Utena's. Her parent's death caused her such grief that to remain in that state of grief forever would be the same as death itself. But she pulled herself out of that grief, not as the same girl she was before, but as a noble girl who wanted to become a prince. Tragic events tend to do that. They're unfortunate, but they often serve to better people. That's likely to have been the case with Shiori's experience with Ruka, too. She was dead inside, staying home from school-- but eventually, she left the room with the courage to confront Juri.

What I've wondered about for years is the "Nirvana principle" mentioned in Juri's duel song. It's likely to be the case with Ruka, Mikage, Tokiko and even Utena. They died, but because they lived their lives well, they weren't reborn into the academy, or rather, "the world". Then again, that's not exactly the case with Mikage, is it...? I guess that Nemuro died and was reborn as Mikage because he didn't live his life well. But that theory is directly challenged by the opinion of whether or not Souji's second life as Mikage was lived out well enough to be freed from the cycle of rebirth.

Karma is clearly present in the series, since Nanami pays for every bad thing she does, but I wonder what the difference is between having a bad rebirth, and avoiding rebirth by remaining dead inside? Was Anthy reborn as a witch because she something bad in her past life (specifically, being stabbed after stealing the light from the world), or was she never reborn at all until she left the academy? Was Juri reborn as the cold person she is now after Shiori emotionally killed her, is she dead inside and was never reborn, or is her soul in a form of purgatory?


*Lost in thought*

I could easily see the phoenix symbolism behind the name 'Ohtori' to be satirical, in all likelihood.  All who come to Ohtori have passed their golden moments in life.  Akio is of a lesser being than Dios.  The Student Council is comprised of youths who have lost what redeeming traits they possessed in their earlier years. 

The phoenix, as we all know, represents the death of one form to the resurrection of a superior form, but in Ohtori, the opposite is true.  While I believe post-revolution, things are set aright, no one was suspecting that the revolution would have actually have taken place.  So I am inclined to see this allusion to this mythic figure of greatness to be placed in the same cynical light as is the mythical prince, princess, and in regards to every false hope possessed by those who have come to Ohtori.

And I cannot say much regarding the actual Ohtori family.  The only one who we really get to know in the series is the daughter, Kanae.  And she experiences a transformation which is again for the worse, becoming little more than a mindless, vegetative lump of flesh wholly dependent on her fiance, post her duel.  It's really quite disturbing, actually, and shows how sick that whole campus is.

Well, I'm more or less throwing an alternative perspective in there which doesn't necessarily amount to much if we are talking a more canon interpretation.

However, I see these concepts dealing with princes, eternity, and what have you, to have dual manifestations.  I personally would say for our two protagonists, especially, that there is an experience of death and rebirth into something greater.  This seems plausible as we observe, for instance, Anthy's 'resurrection' in the end, emerging from her coffin almost like an infant from the womb.  I would imagine her new form greatly outshines whoever she was previously.  With Utena, too, she goes from this naive, easily swept away youth searching for a prince to taking the princely role which leads to her own maturity (and it could be argued that in the end, Utena was freed from having to fit any role of a girl, boy, princess, or prince, and post-series existed as being 'herself').  But I would imagine Utena, post-series, was reborn, in a figurative sense, into her strongest.  I could well see this for those she 'saved' who were also caught up in the duels and the delusions.

I'd delve further but I'm finding it hard to really say what  I want to say.  But yeah, I forewarn, I am a highly cynical person and it will spill into some of my ideas. 

Last edited by spoon-san (09-07-2009 08:36:06 PM)

On the surface Akio is the would-be phoenix. Dios reborn in his person. But the real phoenix is Anthy. To some extent everyone is a phoenix except Akio.

Necroing this thread because no one's mentioned Demian.

Hermann Hesse wrote:

The bird struggles out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must destroy a world. The bird flies to God. That God's name is Abraxas.

Touga and Juri wrote:

touga:  If the egg's shell does not break, the chick will die without being born.
touga:  We are the chick; the egg is the world.
touga:  If the world's shell does not break, we will die without being born.
touga:  Break the world's shell!
touga&juri:  For the sake of revolutionizing the world!

If you think how eggs and coffins are used, sometimes interchangeably, in the series, one could argue that 'smashing the shell' and rising from the ashes are one and the same thing.