gorgeousshutin wrote:

As for her being naive . . . as this is the entity who is both Mr. Kaoru's new fling (while he's located off campus), and the adult-mannered "Mamiya", I do think she is going to be much, much more of an "old soul" than any other actually young people there is out in the real world.

Yeah, but has she ever pumped gas? Made rent?

She's very old, but she's very old living a long very kept life. If she does give up her magic, or at least, the manipulatory aspects, things like dessert meals are going to happen less and less or... things will go poorly.

She, physically, is a fourteen year old girl. That, alone, without masking glamours or other protections, is something I don't think she's actually prepared very functionally to deal with. Pretending to be the shit on quiet girl while you're secretly fucking up everyone is different then actually being a fourteen year old girl on her own with no magic or big brother boss back up.

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

She's very old, but she's very old living a long very kept life. If she does give up her magic, or at least, the manipulatory aspects, things like dessert meals are going to happen less and less or... things will go poorly.

I totally understand where you're coming from.

But, I think the series has made it clear that she is just as much of a “big boss” as her brother, and just as skilled in making rich/powerful adults (Mr. Kaoru, Nemuro) do what she wants.  Anthy did much, much more in the show than playing the doormat: she is not some shut-in during the show’s run: she has been interacting with teens and adults – in and outside of Ohtori campus - while always being in control of the situation.

That "manipulatory aspects" of any person - not just Anthy - in the "real world" is an area shaded in multitudes of grays; one could argue it is a must-have survival tool in a world that judge people by what they say/do/appear as on the surface.  I can see Anthy no longer using it to purposely hurt people, but I don’t see how or why she would be giving it up entirely, since the real world is where she needs it the most.

We must remember, that the Anthy in SKU attracts the males (and Utena) not by playing some cartoonish vamp to be lusted over, but rather, appeal to them by appearing as “someone to be cherished/bias-towards”.  With this kind of (non-blatantly inappropriate, non magical) ability, she can easily appeal to most people as a likable, sympathetic person; her 14 yr old female body is only going to make her all the easier for grownups to be biased-towards.  I don’t see her having any problem landing odd jobs (florist-help, waitress, antique-store clerk) and host families (well-to-do but lonely couples who don’t mind taking in a young surrogate daughter figure briefly) during her search for Utena.  Hell, I can imagine her coming up with some touching but non-magical story behind her Utena search, and easily getting the media - or even the authorities - involved in her search.

Pinchi wrote:

I'm not sure about Anthy being naive when entering to the real world, either. After manipulating so many people over the years, I believe she has some idea about what she's going to face. However, I agree with Decrescent Daytripper that the real world will be a great adjustment for her. After leaving Ohtori, she won't necessarily have to deal with other people's feelings or experiences, but with her own. And that is something Anthy still doesn't know how to do: how to deal with her heart.

Awesomely on-point and direct; you've made my day, Pinchi

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

She's very old, but she's very old living a long very kept life. If she does give up her magic, or at least, the manipulatory aspects, things like dessert meals are going to happen less and less or... things will go poorly.

I totally understand where you're coming from.

But, I think the series has made it clear that she is just as much of a “big boss” as her brother, and just as skilled in making rich/powerful adults (Mr. Kaoru, Nemuro) do what she wants.  Anthy did much, much more in the show than playing the doormat: she is not some shut-in during the show’s run: she has been interacting with teens and adults – in and outside of Ohtori campus - while always being in control of the situation.

That "manipulatory aspects" of any person - not just Anthy - in the "real world" is an area shaded in multitudes of grays; one could argue it is a must-have survival tool in a world that judge people by what they say/do/appear as on the surface.  I can see Anthy no longer using it to purposely hurt people, but I don’t see how or why she would be giving it up entirely, since the real world is where she needs it the most.

We must remember, that the Anthy in SKU attracts the males (and Utena) not by playing some cartoonish vamp to be lusted over, but rather, appeal to them by appearing as “someone to be cherished/bias-towards”.  With this kind of (non-blatantly inappropriate, non magical) ability, she can easily appeal to most people as a likable, sympathetic person; her 14 yr old female body is only going to make her all the easier for grownups to be biased-towards.  I don’t see her having any problem landing odd jobs (florist-help, waitress, antique-store clerk) and host families (well-to-do but lonely couples who don’t mind taking in a young surrogate daughter figure briefly) during her search for Utena.  Hell, I can imagine her coming up with some touching but non-magical story behind her Utena search, and easily getting the media - or even the authorities - involved in her search.

I agree with almost... everything here. What you said really is a good possibility of what Anthy will do in the outside world. She sure has the capacity to appeal to people's hearts and to manipulate them in order to accomplish her goal. But I wonder, would she do this in the outside world? It's also a possibility that she tries to avoid people until rather she finds Utena or she notices she needs help in her search. If she asks for help we know she'll get it because is Anthy we're talking about. However, I think that the only one she will truly open her heart will be Utena.

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Pinchi wrote:

I'm not sure about Anthy being naive when entering to the real world, either. After manipulating so many people over the years, I believe she has some idea about what she's going to face. However, I agree with Decrescent Daytripper that the real world will be a great adjustment for her. After leaving Ohtori, she won't necessarily have to deal with other people's feelings or experiences, but with her own. And that is something Anthy still doesn't know how to do: how to deal with her heart.

Awesomely on-point and direct; you've made my day, Pinchi

Aww, thanks! . I usually have problems writing long paragraphs because my english is not so good and it's also very limited. I'm glad that I gave a good comment!

Lurv wrote:

Anyway! I didn't notice it in Utena's fairy tale backstory, but the bare trees in Anthy's journey at the end was brought to my attention in another thread.  It makes for an interesting contrast between Ohtori and the Outside World, since Ohtori is full of roses, but they all seem to be growing inside a "cage". Ohtori is seemingly safer, after all.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know this was discussed in another thread before. I still haven't found time to read (and meditate about) all the threads in the SKU catalogue. Anyway, I think you've resumed quite well what I think about the background at the end of the show. Sorry for derail this thread a little with this.

Hey, HoneyBear ~

We also see them in other places, too (though not the exact same image as that one). The end of episode 27 is the one that springs to mind, where Shiori runs up to walk with Juri. Not sure what the significance of that is though (if there is one).

I could never be sure on this one . . . but, could that hospital/clinic where Juri visits the injured fencing club member actually be off campus (much like the supermarket Wakaba shops at in her BR Ep)?  If so, then, my dry-tree = in outside world theory still stands.

My thoughts about Anthy is that she probably loses her magic when she leaves Ohtori and becomes a regular girl. It's only the fairy-tale world of Ohtori where princes and magic exist. But then again, I've never taken Anthy's backstory as literally as some people prefer to intepret. I've never imagined her as a goddess or Dios as a real prince who saves girls for a living. Instead I've always intepreted her story as a metaphor for a controlling/abusive relationship with her brother.

But without the magic, it would get very hard for her and Akio meeting young Utena to make any sense, even if just on a metaphoric level . . .

Either way, someone with Anthy's interpersonal skills - its strength lies not in opening the heart, but closing it for the sake of effectively affecting the people around her  - will still keep her easily afloat in a real world full of easily convinced people, I'm sure . . . unless she herself suffer some mental breakdown first, that is.

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Hey, HoneyBear ~

We also see them in other places, too (though not the exact same image as that one). The end of episode 27 is the one that springs to mind, where Shiori runs up to walk with Juri. Not sure what the significance of that is though (if there is one).

I could never be sure on this one . . . but, could that hospital/clinic where Juri visits the injured fencing club member actually be off campus (much like the supermarket Wakaba shops at in her BR Ep)?  If so, then, my dry-tree = in outside world theory still stands.

My thoughts about Anthy is that she probably loses her magic when she leaves Ohtori and becomes a regular girl. It's only the fairy-tale world of Ohtori where princes and magic exist. But then again, I've never taken Anthy's backstory as literally as some people prefer to intepret. I've never imagined her as a goddess or Dios as a real prince who saves girls for a living. Instead I've always intepreted her story as a metaphor for a controlling/abusive relationship with her brother.

But without the magic, it would get very hard for her and Akio meeting young Utena to make any sense, even if just on a metaphoric level . . .

Either way, someone with Anthy's interpersonal skills - its strength lies not in opening the heart, but closing it for the sake of effectively affecting the people around her  - will still keep her easily afloat in a real world full of easily convinced people, I'm sure . . . unless she herself suffer some mental breakdown first, that is.

I think the outside world theory works even if the clinic is inside Ohtori. It could have just as much to do with the character's mindset as location. At the end of episode 27 Juri's lost her locket, which serves just as Utena's ring does to keep her enslaved to Ohtori. She's not over Shiori yet, but she's getting there.

Hm, that's a good point. I've yet to think that part of my theory through yet. Though I don't think it's impossible that Akio/Dios and Anthy might have met Utena in the outside world when she was a child.

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Also, with the magic being non-factual, the entire BR Arc would have never happened (with Nemuro never present as Mikage).  Then, how do we explain BR Duelists displaying those notable character changes (Kanae shrewdly berating Akio, Shiori non-apologic to Juri, Wakaba being over Saionji, Keiko slapping Nanami back etc) for the last 2 Arcs?

Speaking from a fairly anti-magic standpoint, I see the "magic" that takes place in the series as a) symbolic representation of events that aren't necessarily magical or b) Akio not so much changing the reality of the things in question as persuading the others to accept that they happened the way they didn't, aka the "magical" way.  The BR characters retain the changes they made over the arc because, despite the fact that it never happened objectively, subjectively, they still experienced it.

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

b) Akio not so much changing the reality of the things in question as persuading the others to accept that they happened the way they didn't, aka the "magical" way.

Like . . . hypnotism taken to a "surreal" extreme?

Edited to add: Pinchi, your posts are well thought, intelligent, and non-judgemental. So don't be shy: post more

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (02-23-2013 02:37:10 PM)

I was reading through Shay Guy's IWIW Utena thread, specifically his movie write up, and I thought about something. We know that the movie reverses the roles of Utena and Anthy, we see it in several objective ways, the switching of their hair textures, Anthy wearing Utena's princess dress in her backstory, their obvious switching of personality traits, mainly introversion and extroversion. I just thought of one I hadn't before. The pool scene where Touga and Anthy start flirting, to Utena's frustration and jelousy, is it perhaps to mirror series!Anthy's frustration and jelousy of UtenaxAkio? It actually is a pretty well mirrored scenario, both of them are caught between their former love interest who they are only holding onto for nostalgic feelings of what once was, their new love interest who they clearly have feelings for but still feel uncertain, and then have to watch those two people have interest in one another which forces them to evaluate their feelings toward both. It's a quick moment in the movie as opposed to an entire arc in the series, mostly because the movie is time constrained.

Last edited by BlackBeforeRed (02-24-2013 08:17:57 PM)

When Nanami moves into the chairman's residence and she plays rock paper scissors with Anthy and Utena for the bed, Anthy loses on purpose. She doesn't put out her hand until she's seen what Utena and Nanami have chosen.

So either she wants to share with Akio, or is planning all along for Nanami to catch them.

Or quite possibly, both.

Crystalline_Dream wrote:

Anthy hesitates slightly during the game of rock, paper, scissors for the bed. She puts her hand out as "rock" only after observing Utena and Nanami's hands. I wouldn't have noticed this if I didn't pause the screen at the exact moment that only Utena and Nanami's hands were in the frame.

Honey Bear wrote:

When Nanami moves into the chairman's residence and she plays rock paper scissors with Anthy and Utena for the bed, Anthy loses on purpose. She doesn't put out her hand until she's seen what Utena and Nanami have chosen.

Even though I said this upthread, glad you noticed too. It's a really cool thing to catch. I wish the characters in the show weren't so oblivious (though I know there are specific reasons for it). Then again, I think that's why Nanami grew on me as a character--she could see things that everyone else couldn't.

Crystalline_Dream wrote:

Crystalline_Dream wrote:

Anthy hesitates slightly during the game of rock, paper, scissors for the bed. She puts her hand out as "rock" only after observing Utena and Nanami's hands. I wouldn't have noticed this if I didn't pause the screen at the exact moment that only Utena and Nanami's hands were in the frame.

Honey Bear wrote:

When Nanami moves into the chairman's residence and she plays rock paper scissors with Anthy and Utena for the bed, Anthy loses on purpose. She doesn't put out her hand until she's seen what Utena and Nanami have chosen.

Even though I said this upthread, glad you noticed too. It's a really cool thing to catch. I wish the characters in the show weren't so oblivious (though I know there are specific reasons for it). Then again, I think that's why Nanami grew on me as a character--she could see things that everyone else couldn't.

Haha! I didn't notice you'd posted the same thing.

I was thinking a similar thing about Nanami just yesterday. It really is surprising that someone so ridiculous as her could be so perceptive at the same time. It only takes her a minute to work out that Utena has a crush on Akio. At the same time, she's occationally so daft that she thinks its possible she might have laid an egg!

I just took the egg thing as Ohtori having an ironically terrible sex ed program.

Last edited by HonorableShadow (03-06-2013 11:55:30 PM)