Wow, I knew they were similar, but.. wow.

I think this gives a hint at just how close Ruka and Juri might have been before. Or how much Ruka trained Juri to be the next head of the fencing team. She's got his moves down perfectly.

I find it telling how in the first duel Juri is smiling in that one shot, and in the next she's looking pretty damn serious. Not such a game anymore, huh?

I could say a lot about this if my brain hadn't just turned to mush, so I will just have to raise the question -- why is Juri echoing Ruka's moves? Is it because as said above, she was his student and they're good moves? Or is it because of the transposition of places? In his duel with Juri, Ruka was fighting to make her realise the folly of her obsessions, her fixations. Is Juri trying to do this for Utena? If so, is it a conscious thing, or is it just incidental? I mean, we never know really how much of the end results the student council understand, when it comes to Anthy and the duels. Nanami tries to talk Utena out of it, and I get the vague impression that Saionji goes along with Touga in the end because he knows Touga is likely to fail and the fact that they act together surely must say SOMETHING to Utena in terms of "This Ends of the World thing is really fucking weird and you ought to be getting out of this...around about now!"

But er, I am off topic here. I think the dual images say something about the infinity loop of the series and the duels -- it's a revolution, a circular movement, an empty movement because THEY HAVE TO CHANGE TO GET OUT DAMMIT WHY WON'T YOU CHANGE?! -- and about Juri's attitude to and comprehension of what Ruka is trying to do for her. Thoughts? I need to bounce off someone else before I try to go any further with this.

The parts where it isn't obvious re-use for the sake of budget are AMAZING. In Jury's final duel--including her flashback to the evening duel with Ruka--she matches up both with Utena AND Ruka. She's practically Ruka's double when fighting Utena, but when fighting Ruka, she makes the exact same mistakes Utena later makes. Hence: she has mastered Ruka's technique, down to the last detail, in a short time. She doesn't make many variations in it, rather choosing to follow it to the letter.

Why do I think they showed the flashback to the evening duel during the formal duel? Simple: they wanted to show Jury in both positions, as the clearly better fighter and as the fighter finding herself unprepared, almost as if she's in both positions at once, opposing herself. Because when you really boil it all down...she's really only fighting herself, isn't she? She's fighting her conflicting feelings, anger, sadness and regret about Shiori and Ruka and herself, and fighting her own desires.

The proof of this is seen much earlier in the series, when we see that her reason for duleing is that she wants to disprove the power of miracles...by gaining and using a miraculous power. This desire in itself in conflicting, and battles itself the way Jury battles herself.

/end my little musings.

Well this DOES beg the question:

Since we have a perfect ass shots of Juri and Utena lined up side by side, who does have the better ass?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Every time I watch Ruka and Juri's duel, I can hear Tenshi Souzou Sunawachi Hikari in the back of my head because of that.

One of the most important changes in this duel is the views on miracles. In the first duel, Juri fought to disprove miracles, and Utena found to defend her belief in the prince. In the second duel, however, Juri is now fighting to defend her belief in her feelings for Shiori, whereas Ruka is trying to disprove them. While Juri mocked Utena about her feelings for the prince, Ruka did the same to Juri.

And of course we have the change of power in this battle. Against Utena, Juri is dominate, but against Ruka she can barely keep up. I'm certain that there is a deeper meaning behind Ruka's "battles" throughout those episodes, however I haven't taken the time to put two and two together on that one. (When I do, I'm sure I'll have more to say on the matter.)

Rosemary Bats wrote:

Why do I think they showed the flashback to the evening duel during the formal duel? Simple: they wanted to show Jury in both positions, as the clearly better fighter and as the fighter finding herself unprepared, almost as if she's in both positions at once, opposing herself. Because when you really boil it all down...she's really only fighting herself, isn't she? She's fighting her conflicting feelings, anger, sadness and regret about Shiori and Ruka and herself, and fighting her own desires.

The proof of this is seen much earlier in the series, when we see that her reason for duleing is that she wants to disprove the power of miracles...by gaining and using a miraculous power. This desire in itself in conflicting, and battles itself the way Jury battles herself.

Sweet, I'll buy that absolutely.

Ragnarok wrote:

When Utena breaks out the Move to Win Battle(tm) the first time, Juri refuses to lose to it and blocks it. The only time in the series that anyone defeats the move physically. And she had only seen it done once, watching Miki's previous duel, as I recall. In their second duel Juri has supposedly raised her skills to a new level and then had them honed by Ruka (with bonus miracle power) and she already knows the move that's coming and how to stop it. But she doesn't.

...or does the locket just conveniently happen to get in the way...?

Clarice wrote:

Ragnarok wrote:

When Utena breaks out the Move to Win Battle(tm) the first time, Juri refuses to lose to it and blocks it. The only time in the series that anyone defeats the move physically. And she had only seen it done once, watching Miki's previous duel, as I recall. In their second duel Juri has supposedly raised her skills to a new level and then had them honed by Ruka (with bonus miracle power) and she already knows the move that's coming and how to stop it. But she doesn't.

...or does the locket just conveniently happen to get in the way...?

I think Juri is ready to block an attack on the rose but the move goes for the locket instead so she misses the block. What makes Utena go for a locket she doesn't know anything about is a mystery (should we ask Anthy?).

Ragnarok wrote:

I think it's more Dios going for it than Utena, and that's the miracle that Ruka buys Juri. Which would be the theory for why Ruka would coach her not to block it that I put forth.

Well, there could be another reason. As we've seen, Jury never lost due to a lack of skill. This leads me to believe it's not the ambiguous "Dios" force doing anything, but someone much more structured and determined.

Jury is generally regarded to be "the best duelist" (until Ruka arrives, that is), or at least the most skilled with the sword. Utena couldn't beat her, even with the power of Dios...and Akio couldn't have that disturbing the layout he had planned for the duels, could he? Because if Utena lost to Jury, it wouldn't cause her to strengthen her "self" the way she did when she lost to Touga, and he needs Utena to be in a certain state before the duel Revolution. So *snip* goes Jury's rose, after the Sword of Dios comes back down from Akio's projected castle, and the duel "Amour" ends the way he needs it to.

The second time, Jury also seemed the clear choice to win, especially after Ruka's coaching. Utena's shot went wild, she didn't even manage to hit Jury's rose with the lunge; but she was SUPPOSED to win right there, as far as Akio was concerned, and as far as the pattern the duels had set so far dictated. Again, a fast one is pulled, and Utena's innacurate shot somehow snags Jury's closed, high-necked coat, opens it, manages to ALSO snag the chain and break it...all without injuring Jury, despite the proximity of blade-to-throat. It was too perfect to be an accident, but since Utena knew nothing of the locket, it wasn't part of her plan. But Akio would know about the locket, and the inevitable plunge Jury would take afterwards. In the end, she takes her own rose off, and once again Utena is the victor, as planned.

I personally believe Akio ochestrates a LOT more than is confirmed in the series. I mean, three coffins accidentally being brought out for the funeral of a couple? Then Akio, masquerading as Dios, showing up to tell The Tale of the Rose to the sad little girl. If he hadn't set up the coffins, and just happened to show up and decide she'd make a good pawn...well, that doesn't sound like something Akio would do at all! He lays his plans and he'll be damnded if they don't go the way he expects. I think the results of Jury's duels are much the same situation as this.

Dallbun wrote:

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

Wow, I knew they were similar, but.. wow.

Yeah, seriously. Nice work, Giovanna!

I think this gives a hint at just how close Ruka and Juri might have been before. Or how much Ruka trained Juri to be the next head of the fencing team. She's got his moves down perfectly.

I thought that for a moment, until I remembered that the fight against Ruka that Juri is flashing back to took place only shortly before the duel. So I guess it's supposed to suggest that Ruka is as much better than Juri as Juri is than Utena (at least during that fight against her when he's focused and motivated and she's not calm at all; after all, I don't think Ruka dominated Utena that much during their duel).

I mean, I'm failing to come up with any deeper comparisons between Utena during Juri's first duel and Juri during her duel against Ruka...

The only reason why Ruka won that duel with Juri is because she was such a fucked up mind state whith him knowing about her love for Shiroi and she hating Juri. Plus, maybe Juri threw the duel because she really wanted to break free from Shiori and saw this as the only way out. In the end Ruka said that she Juri was better than everyone else and her no one ( not even the power of Dios) could stop her if she was not restrained ( or something like that).

Gio and Rosemary Bats, you are geniuses. Not as much as Ikuhara, though. -stares- I love that man more with every passing day.

Rosemary Bats wrote:

ROSEMARY BATS PRETTY MUCH TOTALLY MAKES ANYTHING I SAY USELESS

Yeah I think you definitely took the words right out of my fingers before I even properly sorted them out in my head. Awesome.

As for how Utena destroys the locket...that would definitely be orchestrated I think, by Akio or Anthy or one of them working for other. (It seems very unimportant to me whose job it was since it was still Akio's decision.) But that really drives the point of how controlled all the duels are, and that even the Dios that helps her isn't the real deal. If an outside source decided what this lunge would hit, then an outside source has decided what it hits every single time.

It's been mentioned in the thread, but I'm really liking chewing on this whole Ruka making a deal to decide for himself that the locket is what needs to go. If not his soul, he sold his life to the devil for the woman he loves! (Romantiku, desu ne?)