Yasha wrote:

Hey guys, turn down the heat in here. You can have opposing opinions without attacking each other; this isn't a race to be "right." If there even is a "right."

And Aelanie, please remember that your opinion of the series is necessarily different from the opinions of others and allow their opinions some respect in our shared space. It may very well be that Utena and Anthy are supposed to be lesbian lovers, but those who are going strictly from the information in the series itself may find it more meaningful to them to interpret it differently. They will want to talk about that interpretation as well. If you feel someone is not giving your views enough respect, please let the mods know and we will come to back you up, but right now it looks like you're trying to enforce the One Truth of a series that benefits more from multiple points of view.

The only truth I am "enforcing" is the truth of creative intention. People are perfectly free to interpret however they please as long as they are aware of the dichotomy between what they may choose to believe and what the creators intended.

However, I do reserve the right to have opinions about those opinions, just as everyone does. Admittedly, I may have made use of that right in a confrontational and perhaps overly aggressive manner. Believe me when I say that isn't something that gives me pleasure. Really, I find the whole thing frustrating precisely because, on this one particular facet of the franchise, the creative intentions have been made far more clear than on almost anything else.

What is "the power to revolutionize the world"? Who and what are Akio and Anthy, really? What is Ohtori? On these and so many other questions, the staff of Utena have been intentionally silent, and there is no doubt that the franchise benefits from that lack of "hand-holding", as it were. But this one single point, the nature of Utena and Anthy's relationship, an exceptionally consistent, clear, and public stance has been taken.

I'd simply like there to be more acknowledgement of that, and it has been acknowledged - here, now, in this thread, at least - I'm satisfied with the outcome.

Last edited by Aelanie (09-07-2013 07:07:18 PM)

Yasha wrote:

Forcing others to acknowledge your viewpoint only makes them dislike you, and dislike the opinion you're trying to promote. If you continue to promote your own opinions at the expense of the discussions you're trying to join, I will start to suspend you for it. Make a thread for that topic. Write an essay about it and submit it to the site. Do something constructive with your opinion instead.

Forgive me, but I am not promoting any opinions of my own, as I thought I had just made clear. I am pointing out the facts of the creative intentions. Those are not negotiable interpretations of the work itself, they are the actual concrete realities of the history of Utena's development. Acknowledgement of those realities, not any "viewpoint" of mine,  is all that I ask for, and I believe it is little enough to want. Since that has already occured, I'm sure it would be a relief to many - and myself not least - if we could consider the matter closed.

Last edited by Aelanie (09-07-2013 08:03:28 PM)

(Maybe we should steer clear of author-intent or who-counts-as-author for now. That, and condescension, seem to be damaging the conversation more than helping.)

I just can't see the value in, say, examining Saved By the Bell based on gender and sex role expectations of the Old West or saying it hinges on understanding or confronting those values.

It's a statement that feels big, but what does it get us?

The concept, in anglo cultures, of "childhood" is a Victorian era construct, as much as shojo is a late-Meiji era construct. And, those dynamics inform Utena on an integral level about as much as 19th Century mores and dynamics inform the schemes of Zack Morris. Which, is to say that, yes, they do inform in a broad and implicit fashion, but there are much more significant (and contemporary) factors at play.