BioKraze wrote:

Everybody who's a fan of Touga, I've noticed, seems to think that the Touga/Utena pairing would work. Lemme tell you something (and I still haven't seen all the episodes; this comes from reading fanfiction. A lot of fanfiction): It's not gonna happen.

At least, not yet. Give the two a few years to work out their personal lives, then hook them up and see what happens. College, maybe. Maybe when Utena's eighteen, she might find herself attracted to Touga. It can happen, yeah, but generally not during the series or even immediately after that.

I'm a Touga/Utena fan simply because I don't believe they can be a happy (if not perfect) couple. However, concerning the scenes you mentioned up there, I fantasize those things too; in fact, I like using these fantasies as concepts and inspiration when I write a Touga/Utena fic/drabble. Don't get me wrong though, like my admiration for Juri/Ruka, the unrequited love is what draws me to cherish these pairings for life. I don't believe in happy endings after all (never will) and love to me is always a tragedy. *smiles*

What I mean is (if you're referring to my initial comment, that is) is that some things we think of as fans just wouldn't work out immediately, during the series or the 2-5 months following Anthy's escape from Ohtori. It might take years for a pairing to work (which, I suppose, is the focus of this thread -- would a pairing work now or several years down the road, when everybody's had a chance to grow up), but some pairings could work. Like Touga/Utena (not just then -- she's still got her Prince hang-up and Touga needs to become less of a manwhore) or Juri/Shiori (not just then -- Juri needs to get her priorities straight and Shiori needs to apologise and forget about Ruka).

Does that help?

Etrangere wrote:

Sorry, no. I still don't get it, what "work" means. Does that mean they would never date? That they would never have consensual sex? Does that mean that couldn't literally have sex because their bits wouldn't fit? That they wouldn't be a successful, healthy couple? Does that mean that they wouldn't really love each others? Does that mean that they don't live on the same plane of existence anyway so it's immaterial? And why right after the series? Why not during, before, why not Alternate Universes and Alternate Timelines?

You bring up good points, Etrangere! By "work," we do mean that they wouldn't go out on a date at that time; we do mean they wouldn't consent to having sex at the time; we do mean that generally, yes, they would not be a successful, healthy, average (I don't use the word "normal" lightly) couple at the time of the series or immediately afterwards. And by immediately, I mean anywhere from the second Anthy leaves Ohtori to about eighteen months after that happens.

As far as dragging the rest of the Multiverse into this (the AUs and ATs)...that's a judgment call, I'd say. But generally, we're dealing with TV series relationships as opposed to movie, manga or movie manga relationships. And even then, we don't have to deal with just relationships. How would Akio cope in the months after Anthy left Ohtori? What would become of the Seitokai in the future? What would become of its former constituents? Would any of it be plausible immediately after the series? Or fifteen years from now?

Stuff like that, that's what I'm hoping this thread generates in a single focussed spot on the forums for all to view and comment upon.

I actually agree with BioKraze that Touga/Utena (the lovey dovey version) would only happen post-anime. And knowing Utena, only after some development of Touga's nobility. Which could happen given time (or might not).

I also agree with BioKraze about Juri/Shiori. If we're talking non-angsty "now we love each other, we see the light" type developments, some time and certain actions are needed. After all, Shiori has to change/realise her orientation or get over her homophobia (just my interpretation).

I feel the same way about a loving version of Touga/Saionji. Needs time, needs resolution of friendship angst, forgiveness, exploring issues etc.

I amazingly feel the same way about romantic Utena/Anthy. (Yes, that's right, even about my own fave romantic pairing) It needs time to develop. All the seeds are there, but in the real world they need a little interaction first, and some major resolution before feelings can grow in that direction.

I think that Akio could be redeemed in the future. But a HECK of a lot of stuff has to happen first. Maybe hundreds of years worth of stuff.

Nanami/Tsuwabuki is another future possibility, after he's grown up quite a lot (and she's gotten over some phobias).

I think Anthy wouldn't get over her dark past immediately, and all the years of passive aggression and abuse. When she finds Utena, it might be a little hard for Utena to handle her sometimes.

I think Utena hasn't mastered her "power of Dios", or her "princehood" or the burden of the swords (assuming that any of those things is what happens) after the series. That would all take time. But it would happen.

BioKraze wrote:

[color=#4060C0]You bring up good points, Etrangere! By "work," we do mean that they wouldn't go out on a date at that time; we do mean they wouldn't consent to having sex at the time; we do mean that generally, yes, they would not be a successful, healthy, average (I don't use the word "normal" lightly) couple at the time of the series or immediately afterwards.

I just don't think shipping necessarly means : "thinking they could work as a successful, healthy, average couple that dates and has sex consensually" - especially in SKU where most of the canonical pairings are none of these things - so I like to see it spelled out.

How would Akio cope in the months after Anthy left Ohtori? What would become of the Seitokai in the future? What would become of its former constituents? Would any of it be plausible immediately after the series? Or fifteen years from now?

So... it's more a post about the immediate aftermath of the series in general? That sounds like a cool subject but that wasn't really clear from the initial title and write up.

I'm in agreement with the Utena/Anthy as romantics. I just don't think Utena could take it. She seems to view their friendship as well above any such trivialities. Anything romantic for her, I think, would threaten the 'pure love' that she feels for Anthy. So, I think it would take a lot of time for Utena to trust any aspect of that type of behavior between them.

As for Juri/Shiori, how did Shiori betray her? Juri mentioned never caring about that one man, and Shiori did come back to apologize. I've always had trouble with people's interpretation of that scene. I just don't see the true betrayal. Misunderstanding, yeah. Naive actions, yeah, but they both had tons of those and Ohtori was full of these types of things. Maybe I'm missing something vital. Probably so. xD