SaigonAlice wrote:

That's true. I think I might write it then, though keeping in mind that Utena while devoid of the presence of a Confucian / Japanese society is still fueled by a Japanese perception of vaguely Western Fairytales. If RGU was a cartoon show made by an American studio, we'd probably get more Brothers Grimm references. Don't know how that would go, Lol.

Not quite sure myself, but it's certainly something to think about, no? Probably a bit more focus on animal motifs, and there would be a Jack analogue somewhere in it, and if there was going to be a Juniper Tree section, WOW that'd be so messed up but so fascinating-
I am completely and utterly tempted to do something like this now. Thank you. Thank you so much.

SaigonAlice wrote:

That might be an unpopular opinion in and of itself, though? He certainly embraces cultural appropriation on a truly American scale...or are we supposed to believe Akio and Anthy are Hindu?

To be fair, one of the series inspiration was apparently the student protests and general counterculture/culture of the 60s-70s. That might explain some of Akio's western influence to a degree.

SaigonAlice wrote:

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Same Lol. Penguindrum was so decidedly heterosexual and [the one gay female character we had attempted to rape a minor... I know she was portrayed sympathetically, but why do we have to flirt with the crazy lesbian trope again? ] Then again, I only watched the first few episodes, got bored and decided to read the TV tropes page instead.

Yeah, even though I enjoyed the series, it has a good chunk of faults. (EDIT:) A few of the developments could be a bit more fleshed out (i.e. [Mario what are you even supposed to be other than a young vulnerable child? Momoka's personality definitely changed from being a flesh and blood human to being a spirit... ]
And I ended up dropping Yuri Kuma Arashi a bit before the 10 episode, though mostly due to a broadcast hiccup than anything. Not really regretting it.

Also, to add an opinion of my own on here...
I'm sort of disappointed that there wasn't a real look into what the other half of "princeliness" was. Sure it's clear that the system that propagated the role of Prince was damaging to women, forcing them into a dichotomy of Princess/Witch that is quite similar to a Madonna/ Whore complex.
But my internal SAT test-taker wants to have a solution to the "Princess is to Witch as Prince is to ____" analogue problem so much. The closest thing we have to that is Saionji's presence, but it's probably still something that won't be filled in anytime soon. At least, if the answer of Satan doesn't fit.

Last edited by zeedikay (02-16-2017 10:03:41 PM)

Broad strokes of sexism have changed radically from the time this show was made. While still relevant, some of the force of the message has definitely been dulled by the progress it called for. Aggressive powerful women are beaten down in ruthless, multiple ways in Utena, and a girl coming into her own now just won't face the same challenges, at least on an equivalent scale. Even in Japan the role of the Witch is less demonized than ever before. I wonder if it makes watching such an aggressively presented message strange to younger people?

Coming from you, that's an unusually optimistic appraisal...that I can't at all agree with. I'll tell you what I see.

I was a teenager in America in the 90s - as you probably know, it was a time of great prosperity and progressive optimism. The Cold War was over, ending in victory for the United States. The economy was prospering, especially in the latter half of the decade as the dot-com boom got into full swing. It seemed clear that racism, sexism, homophobia, and other social evils were being defeated, and the internet promised a bright future of knowledge and reason available to all.

Maybe some of that was true, then. Progress was undoubtedly made. But twenty years later, as I look back, all I see is that we are backsliding. A president was just elected that, apart from his uncountable other disqualifications, has openly gloated about sexually harassing women. Many, many women voted for him, despite knowing this. The internet has betrayed our expectations, becoming instead a place that allows for extremist echo chambers, particularly in the area of misogyny, to disseminate and flourish unopposed. Feminism is vilified and scorned to a greater extent than ever (which is saying something, as it always has been to some extent.)

As for Japan, the blame for the population crisis that is looming for them has, as usual, been planted firmly on the shoulders of women for not having enough children. It is not a good time there to be any kind of woman other than a housewife, and the situation will only get worse as their demographics worsen. Already their male politicians are pronouncing a woman's life, if childless, "wasted". Needless to say, LGBT women are on a whole other level.

Things may have changed, but they haven't changed that much - and if they have, it is only in certain first world nations. Outside, women are still having acid thrown in their faces for refusing men, still being murdered for wearing the wrong clothes, still being beaten for daring to speak up.

I hope that you're right. My best friend sees things in a similar way to you. But when I look out there, at the evil that is so easily seen and so proudly put on display on the internet these days, I really wonder.

In any case, I was speaking of my own perceptions, rather than what was actually happening. That was how it seemed to me then, I never said it was actually the case - in fact I know it isn't.

No need. There is already a politics thread there, and as you may note, it is not a thread I post in. It's not a topic I usually address in public spaces, the conversation here just happened to veer in that direction.

How about a general Internet and Politics thread? Those two have and probably will remain important to each others development now. You probably could set something up, and see where it goes. I might post there sometimes if I get the chance.

Yasha wrote:

- I don't think Anthy would have stayed with Akio if there was never any love there. The thing that people miss about abusers is that they often do care for their victims. It just doesn't stop them from being abusers. And what makes it hard to leave an abuser is that they'll be just loving enough to keep you enduring the abuse for the sake of the affection that comes afterward. I simply cannot picture Akio and Anthy's relationship never following that typical cycle, although that's clearly over by the start of the series.

If you interpret Anthy's sacrifice being motivated by a desire to be Dios, (you know, her brother who apparently spent all his time fighting giant monsters and going on dates with 'princesses' to the point where it almost killed him...) having time to be with him would be reward enough. Though she's 8-10 years old presumably, and this is a reasonable request, even if it lead up to her practically being made into a dark martyr of insidious darkness by most of the world. You could say that Akio's entire plan, being the unconscious establishment of a frozen hierarchy to recreate his glory days, is just him making up lost time for his little sister, which eventually sort of... escalated. I honestly tried not to make that sound too creepy, but with the subject, it's hard.

And on another note, I probably wouldn't argue if I suddenly had Saionji's hair, color and all. It seems luxurious enough, and I'm pretty sure I could pull off seaweed green.

Mitsuru Tsuwabuki isn't cute. At the very least he's a budding domestic abuser. At worst, he's going to be a serial killer hunting down women in Nanami's likeness for rejecting him.

malna wrote:

My unpopular opinion is that Touga is by no means the one dimensional character I often see him made out to be. He's still a manipulative asshole, though.

Really? I think the popular opinion of Touga is precisely that he's a morally ambiguous character of clashing motivations and actions, but one that ultimately can't be defended as either a sympathetic character or an ally of Utena's.

At least, Series Touga. I would rather say that it is Movie Touga who usually gets a pass as a noble and tragic prince figure when in fact, even in death, he is manipulating Utena heavily to turn her against Anthy and toward his own possessive goals for her, even if that means keeping her chained to painful long-past memories. (For details, see my Touga examination linked in my first post in this thread.)

So I guess I can add that to my unpopular opinions. "If you really look at him, Movie Touga is the same complex and contradictory, but ultimately indefensible and antagonistic character that he is in the series."

Last edited by Aelanie (02-24-2017 02:02:44 AM)

Gio, you should read my exam on Movie Touga if you haven't. (Along with all the others. ) In brief, my conclusions are that he is extremely aware of his behavior, but choosing to take the course he is taking anyway, because he believes not only that it is the best thing for Utena, but that Utena wants him to.

...and the most interesting thing is, he may be right. In fact, one possible reading of Movie Touga is that he's being directly influenced, in every way from his personality, to his looks, to his behavior and goals, by Utena's past and present conception of him. As I point out in the exam, Movie Touga died as a little boy, NOT the tall, elegant, cynically manipulative man that we see in the movie. How did one become the other? This version of him may have sprung directly from Utena's bitter and ambivalent feelings toward her memories of him.

This raises all kinds of interesting questions about just how much of an independent being he is. Even if her mental conception of him is what gave birth to his current existence, he still has his own childhood memories, something Utena could not know about him. Clearly he is not totally a creation of her mind, but he may be being irresistably influenced to do what he does, by Utena's mindset. As said, to me it's crystal clear that he knows his behavior is underhanded and reprehensible. But whose desire is it that is driving him on? His? Utena's? Both?

Anyway, it's all in there. I'll say this: as someone who as a rule does not have much interest in male characters, I consider him probably the most interesting part of the movie, because of the many questions about what he is, and how he came to be what he is. He is a great and interesting foil for Anthy in their shadowy battle for Utena's heart.

Last edited by Aelanie (02-23-2017 10:13:26 PM)

SaigonAlice wrote:

Also one more unpopular opinion: I read Tsuwabuki as a gay boy struggling with heteronomartivity and toxic masculinity (more specifically, the patriarchal expectations of men as protectors and providers of Women). Might be tempted to make a thread about it some time actually.

I'm sort of hesitantly curious about this, and would like to see that thread. I think I have a grasp on what you're saying, but it'd probably be better if you explained your points more in-depth. Though I'd like to say here that if it was the case, it's interesting that it would be connected the youngest member of the 'main' cast.

As another unpopular opinion, I'd like to say that there is no real difference between the end of Ruka's arc and this Simpsons clip:


EDIT: I wanted to say that there probably was a better way to resolve Juri's main arc, or at least one that got across the Deus ex Diablo a bit more smoothly. But without Ruka, I wouldn't be able to make this joke. So... eh?

Last edited by zeedikay (02-24-2017 05:22:26 AM)

zeedikay wrote:

SaigonAlice wrote:

Also one more unpopular opinion: I read Tsuwabuki as a gay boy struggling with heteronomartivity and toxic masculinity (more specifically, the patriarchal expectations of men as protectors and providers of Women). Might be tempted to make a thread about it some time actually.

I'm sort of hesitantly curious about this, and would like to see that thread. I think I have a grasp on what you're saying, but it'd probably be better if you explained your points more in-depth. Though I'd like to say here that if it was the case, it's interesting that it would be connected the youngest member of the 'main' cast.

As another unpopular opinion, I'd like to say that there is no real difference between the end of Ruka's arc and this Simpsons clip:


EDIT: I wanted to say that there probably was a better way to resolve Juri's main arc, or at least one that got across the Deus ex Diablo a bit more smoothly. But without Ruka, I wouldn't be able to make this joke. So... eh?

I remember that episode, and OMG your comment is awesome!

Well, I'm not a fan per se, but I do like Ruka. Which is an unpopular opinion all on its own, I suppose! But as far as Gio and I are concerned, we show our love by ripping on our favorite characters. If we're shit-talking a character, it probably means we like them, so the Simpsons clip fits right in with how we express our affection

Woah. Alright, that does it. I sealed him away where you can never touch him again!