Yet another reason why the movie is disappointing. Saionji is described as having "high ideals" while Shiori gets pulverized; and she doesn't even foam at the mouth.

Well, I have a different interpretation of Shiori's personality and motivation throughout the series, but I accept yours. As for her apology, I believe that on some level she really did want to resume her friendship with Juri as if nothing had happened, but I also think that she was taking pleasure in reminding Juri about the fact she'd taken Sir Nameless. We see her reminding Juri of it in her letter in 'Unfulfilled Juri', which was almost an apology in itself, and she goes and does it again in the confession scene on the balcony. When she says: 'It's not something that can be forgiven/You'll never forgive me for it", she gives Juri something like a resigned, but still pleased, smile. You can interpret that in a different way, of course, but I'm interpreting it as Shiori taking pleasure in the reminder of that one 'triumph' she had. Does she regret it? On some level, maybe, but I'm not too inclined to believe that she was going to just wipe the slate and continue on with no problems. Even at the end of the episode we get something of a hint that Shiori is still essentially the same as she was during her duel: Utena says she seems much different, Anthy smiles at her and says she hasn't changed. Not one bit.

As for Saionji fixating on Touga, I still think that makes up a large amount of his character. There's a lot of complexities within it, bit it still remains somewhat of a pillar, like Miki's relationship with Kozue and Juri's relationship with Shiori, Nanami's relationship with Touga, Utena's with Dios. There are a lot of these character-defining relationships going about in this series. Do the characters have live soutside of these people, complexities, characteristics without them? Sure. But take that relationship away, and you've drastically changed them.

On your parallel with Miki and Utena's fantasies: do you mean the way they see her an innocent, normal girl, or something less broad?

I don't think it's a fair comparison to say a letter where she says "I did this and don't regret it" and an in-person conversation where she says "I did this, it was my fault, and I'm sorry" are basically the same thing - indeed, they're the opposite, since she's now saying that she does regret it. Shiori's motivation is not that she wants to particularly hurt Juri, it's that she wants to see herself as an equal or better of Juri on some level, a subtle but extremely important difference. As for Anthy's opinion, she's right in that Shiori doesn't seem changed, because Shiori is good at hiding what she really feels inside. I don't feel comfortable with any interpretation that makes Black Rose Shiori the "real" Shiori, any more than the real Wakaba would like to stab Utena with a sword - they were both under the influence of mind control that vastly distorted their personalities, as is specifically said by Mikage.

Not that Shiori is some kind of angel, but I find a description of her as petty and manipulative to be very unfair. Shiori never (of her own free will) uses the considerable power she's well aware she has over Juri, nor ever shows any inclinations of wanting to. She does come back, own up to what she did, and apologise - a mature response which is something she is shown to have deliberately not done before. I think she often doesn't get any credit for this, while the bad things she does are somewhat unreasonably magnified in significance.

As far as Saionji goes, that's my point entirely - I don't feel he's defined by Touga. I think it's quite important that his relationship with Touga isn't even explored in his original arc. Try to picture an introductory arc with Nanami that doesn't even touch on her relationship with Touga, or an introductory arc with Shiori that barely mentions Juri, or so forth, and I think you'll see why I don't feel it's the same level of importance.

The parallel, I feel, is that both Miki and Utena get a notion into their heads of what Anthy is "really like", and are determined to "free" her and make her what they feel she ought to be like. Both are decisively proven wrong when Anthy ultimately acts completely contrary to their fantasies (Miki when Anthy cheers for Utena, Utena when Anthy is won by Touga). I think Miki's duel is a foreshadowing of what is planned to happen when Utena duels Touga, and a lesson for Utena that she is completely oblivious to.

(P.S.: Oh, and I support more batshit crazy violent duellist women, too. Go, Chigusa!)

Last edited by Blade (02-10-2007 01:58:51 PM)

OH NO YOU DIDN'T. (Write an essay dammit. MORE ESSAYS. )

I definitely see parallels between Saionji and Shiori, but I don't think they were quite deliberate. Similarities, yes, inferiority complex, prone to defensive cruelty, yes. I think ultimately what sets them apart isn't them but the populations they represent. People like or dislike Shiori because many of them relate to her or know a number of people that remind them of Shiori. Shiori is, I think, probably the most 'common' character in the series, there are lots, and lots, and lots of people just like her. Saionji, however, is slightly less common, you don't meet a Saionji in every classroom. The difference that makes one more frequent than the other is where the parallels, I think, tend to break down. I admit though, that Shiori is not my specialty.

Saionji, however, is. Blade, you have a point that his relationship with Touga isn't stressed the same way other relationships in the series are, but I think that's a difference in how they approached developing his character and Touga's. Even Castle Said to Hold Eternity, which is very close to being Saionji-centric, is developing him while providing us with Utena's backstory. I linger on Saionji's end of it because he's the character more interesting to me, and most of us do the same because it's one of the few cases where he's developed, and we get plenty of Utena time, but a different viewer, that's focused more steadily on Utena, would hardly notice Saionji at all, because like many points in the series, he's being used as a catalyst or a lens to focus something else. Wakaba's episodes aren't about him, though he's developed a lot in them, it's totally indirect. His role late in the series is to develop and show us Touga, none of those conversations are about Saionji. This is something I'd say Saionji has in common with (naturally) Touga, Akio, and to a lesser extent, Anthy. The finer points of their life story are not given. We hear a lot of Miki and Juri's backstory, but these characters we end up figuring out by how they behave, which is why Saionji is so dynamic to me. His behavior changes radically in the series.

Now that I think of it, that's a lot of the reason I like the characters I do, I suspect. They offer you different characters for different approaches; whether you prefer to analyze by backstory and circumstances or by behavior, but the nature of the latter precludes their having their own episodes.

Christ, I'ma shut up. I need not to do this when I'm tired.

Wakaba reminding you of anyone? There's an argument to be made for the BRS duelists kinda tapping into the power and skill of the sword they carry, and it's very strong with her, she got his sword, the style, and his capacity for rage and fury. If Saionji was a girl, he'd pull your hair in a fight.

I've compared Shiori to a lot of characters, but Saionji has never been one of them. There are quite a few similarities between them, but honestly, even now my mind isn't going crazy with all the possible connections. Maybe it's just because I'm not much of an expert on Saionji.

The only connection between Shiori and another character that may have actually been intentional is the connect between Shiori and Kozue. They have more in common than you would think, and I really love the mysterious connection between the two of them.

Giovanna wrote:

I think you've hit it smack on the head, the reason why Saionji tends to be one of the more disliked characters of the series. We never get inside his head -- at least, not directly. And that's precisely why I ended up fascinated by him, because you have to work for Saionji. I have to admit I've never been a fan of Shiori myself, because as you say she's a "common" sort of character. I only had to turn around in school to see dozens of girls similar to her (or occasionally just look in a mirror), but Saionji? A little harder to pin down.

I also disagree with the thought that Touga's relationship with Saionji didn't in some way define his character for the audience. It certainly did for me, not least of all because Saionji -- despite being all but out of the duelling game although unlike Nanami he didn't chuck the ring at first opportunity; that says more about her than him, however -- acted as Touga's Rose Bride. You could perhaps say the Rose Bride is part of the heat of the moment (i.e. Ruka and Shiori) but given the history of Touga and Saionji, I sincerely doubt it. But that's just me.

As for Shiori's "maturity" in apologising to Juri after her transfer...you know, I have never worked out how sincere she was being then. Given how viciously she turned on Juri later when Ruka presented himself as the new boy-we-never-knew, I don't think she'd learned her lesson. Perhaps she was just angling for position, given being Juri's former best friend could get her back into the it crowd at Ohtori? Not that Juri would really help much there, given what a loner she appears to be when it comes to socialising...

And er, I am totally off topic here. You know I was thinking, though -- Shiori sort of takes Saionji's place in the movie as Touga's confidant. They are talking different things, of course, but I really only see shades of anime!Touga in movie!Touga when he's disseminating in bed with Shiori.

...and sweet merciful crap, that sounded WAY dirtier than I actually intended. Dammit, I'm going to go sleep now before I find my foot permanently lodged in my mouth...

I never noticed those similarities between Shiori and Saionji before. I don't see them matching up completely, but I like seeing the similar themes running through their characters.

I kind of imagine Shiori having more in common with Wakaba, though. Both characters seem to have rather large inferiority complexes, regarding Juri for Shiori and Utena along with the rest of the Student Concil for Wakaba, although their reactions are pretty different. Maybe Wakaba could've ended up like Shiori a few years down the line, if she'd been around Utena for much longer.

But by that please don't think I dislike Shiori. After Anthy and Kozue, she's one of my favourites from the series.