april6e wrote:

2. Juri is lesbian/bi

This is one of my greatest peeves. There isn't anything close to even come close to suggesting she is lesbian. Bi, you have more of an argument but people act like they've never seen two close female friends before. It's a typical American attitude that if two female are really close, they must be lesbians. Straight women here can vouch that they've probably sleep together with their best friend as a child if not been naked together or even touched their friends sensually. It's normal and you can do it without sexual intention, guys can't fathom this.

Whether or not Juri has had any sexual experience with another woman or not, I think that the anime makes it very clear that she has romantic feelings for and attachment to Shiori. This goes beyond mere friendship; Juri keeps a picture of Shiori in her locket as her most precious possession for years. The way Juri acts around and responds to Shiori indicate that there is much more than friendliness on her mind. Even with all of that aside, there is the scene between Miki, Utena, and Juri in episode 37 where Utena distinguishes her feelings for Anthy from the kinds of feelings that Juri has for Shiori- Utena is attempting to say that her feelings for Anthy, unlike Juri's for Shiori, are not romantically driven (at least primarily).

As for your points numbered 3 & 5, I think that is simply a matter of personal interpretation and that the series offers plenty of leeway on one's perception of Anthy's character and plight.

april6e wrote:

I am bother by many opinions on this site taken as fact when there isn't any support in the anime to prove it.

I'm not sure you've read enough of the archived analyses, have read enough of the interviews with the writers/directors, and have even consumed enough of the various Utena media to make the claim that there isn't any support for such assumptions.  Are you implying that the people on this site don't have much more information about the anime (in specific) than you do?

I don't know much myself about Utena (though I learn something new each time I rewatch any given episode).  But I've looked back far enough in the archives to know there are old arguments that have been made that I doubt long-time forumgoers want to continually hash out.  Of course, that's a general intrinsic issue with older forums that have smaller communities but welcome new members.

If I were you I'd probably just ask why the specific left-field analyses are at times taken for granted.  I'm sure people will inform you.

I think you're right that most of the things you state are questionable and up for debate (though I think your view on Anthy is coloured by personal opinion) but...

april6e wrote:

2. Juri is lesbian/bi
This is one of my greatest peeves. There isn't anything close to even come close to suggesting she is lesbian.

You mean there's actually someone out there who thinks Juri is straight? 

1. A perfectly valid interpretation and even insightful. But that big grin of his is awfully suggestive.
2. I suppose there is such a thing as hetero-sexual girl-crush. I suppose it could get awfully intense, I wouldn't know. Do note that Shiori placed her hand between Juri's breasts and held them there for a very long second and neither Juri nor we are sure which way her hand will move.
4. Agreed mostly, one could argue that her feelings about Miki consist of a highly-inappropriate possessiveness and that she is not aware of how it looks to others.
3. and 5. That's a semantic argument. She sleeps around (seemingly) but at whose behest? That's not clear. She stabs Utena in the back, but why? Oddly, the evidence that she sleeps with anybody other than Akio is not stronger than the other insinuations mentioned in this topic. Maybe she is Akio-monogamous.

Last edited by brian (07-18-2012 01:20:19 PM)

Guys, Guys, GUYS. I think we really have to look at the bare-bones facts of this show even further now that we've heard this.

For example, many people also conclude that Akio is a ladies' man. FALSE. He is a virgin who likes naked wrestling. I mean, what siblings haven't giggled and showed each other their peepees? Just because two siblings like to run around naked doesn't mean they've had SEX EW. And we have no proof of Utena and Akio actually having sex. Did we see penetration? NO. They were clearly just wrestling naked and Akio got the upper hand. Utena was sad that she had lost and he was totally pinching her and it hurt. What's weird about naked wrestling? My brother and his friend do it all the time when they're supposed to be studying, so I have it on good authority that it's perfectly normal.

People also assume that Touga is a womanizer with a thing for Utena. FALSE. Just because he calls girls all the time and they hang out in his bed doesn't mean he like-likes them, or vice-versa. I do that all the time to guys and I'm totally joking. Sure, they think I mean it, but that's just because they're stupid. Everyone knows that if I liked them I would ask, "Would you like to have sexual intercourse with me?" It is simply the weakness inherent in their gender to misunderstand.

People also assume Ruka likes Juri. FALSE. He likes Shiori, because he dated her. If he liked Juri, he would have asked for sexual intercourse. She was clearly becoming too angry when they were fencing, so he put his facehole over hers to help her breathe. It's a perfectly normal response. My brother and his friend do it all the time when wrestling gets them too exhausted.

1. Akio had sex with almost every female/male in the anime.

I'm actually with you on this one, but I think the key word is almost. He racks up quite a body count, and while I wouldn't put it /past/ him to sleep with everyone, there are some we assume he never had time (or motive) to bother with, like Wakaba, Nanami and her goon trio. But like, the list is pretty freaking long. Kozue, Touga, Anthy, Utena, Mrs. Ohtori, Tokiko, Kanae (at one point, I'm sure, probably only the first time and then he realized that fresh, young vagina does not compare with the zesty, treacherous debauchery that is her mother, BUT LET'S NOT GET OFF TRACK HERE). A lot of the sex in Utena is heavily implied. But seriously, you don't think that Akio, Touga and Saionji taking shirtless pictures on top of a car together isn't a little homoerotic, if not extremely inappropriate for a chairman to be doing with his student council? As for whether he has sex with every person who gets in the Akiomobile, I thought that the fact that the chairs are constantly reclining at the end of the scenes to be quite suggestive. If you have a different interpretation of this, let me know, because I love new view points. 

2. Juri is lesbian/bi

Shiori also freaks out about it in Mikage's elevator.

Script taken from ohtori site.

Shiori: Juri-san was so kind to me.
Shiori: But I thought she was kind to me because she looked down on me,
Shiori: and that she had pity on me for being plain and useless.
Shiori: That's pathetic!
Shiori: So I wanted to change my relationship with Juri-san.
Shiori: But what I did with him made me more miserable than before.
Shiori: I should have wanted it for myself!
Shiori: But now...
Shiori: Now I'm on equal terms with her. No, I've won!
Shiori: I always had a place in Juri-san's heart.
Shiori: I'm the winner!
Shiori: What shall I do? I'm so delighted to know my friend's secret I almost can't bear it!
Shiori: She suffered alone, looking at my picture in secret...
Shiori: That was Juri-san? Poor thing!
Shiori: No good! It's still no good!
Shiori: How could you look at me like that?!
Shiori: Why did it all turn out this way?

Whether she likes boys is irrelevant to the series, imo. Her rejection of Ruka is already predicated on the fact that she loves Shiori. And I'm sorry, but she does love her. Not like. Loves. Constant flashbacks to Shiori's face holding out the yellow rose, that Shiori herself mentions that Juri is in love with someone, Juri's obsession with disproving miracles and the fact that she rematches Utena to save Shiori? That ain't no school yard crush, kids. And it makes me so sad that Juri must have seen Shiori, liked her, and wanted to be with her. Then Shiori, being her insecure self, misinterpreted her attraction as pity and began to resent her affections. That is like, tragic, guys. 

3. Anthy is a misunderstood hero of the story

This is up to you entirely. There is a great essay by Azusa about the interpretations of Anthy. Mine is that she is someone who went along with playing a doll for a while as a way to survive and hold onto the only person she loved, eventually bought her own bullshit about being the Rose Bride, and was slowly brought out of it by Utena over the course of the series. Saying she is a backstabbing tramp does have some merit, if only because she did indeed stab someone in the back with a sword, and has sex with her brother, but let us not get into the nasty business of slut-shaming or ridiculing those who are sexually abused at a young age.

4. Miki and his sister

I agree, I love Kozue. Easily my favourite character. And I think there is a hint that their relationship did cross that platonic line, but she does lick his ear while he's sleeping... but they may not have had sex. I'm on the fence with Miki, so I can't offer much in that area.

FTR, I think that it was good of you to call out shenanigans on us, and it showed a lot of balls to make a thread, which I respect.

Edited because I absolutely agree with Atropos.

Last edited by Syora (07-18-2012 01:56:21 PM)

Frau Eva wrote:

Awesome post

Poor Akio! He's so misjudged!

honey bear wrote:

Poor Akio! He's so misjudged! emot-frown

Perhaps there was nothing outright sexual between Akio and Mrs. Ohtori after all - he could merely be doing a very good job of checking her for ingrown toe nails

Varla wrote:

EDIT: If Juri were male, would you still find their relationship platonic?

THIS. Is what bothers me. If we applied the same logic to every relationship in the show, we'd be hard-pressed to prove anyone likes anyone romantically. The fact that this high standard of proof is only applied to possible homosexual relationships is problematic, to say the least.

Isn't there an actual screenshot of Akio and Touga doing the nasty?  It may still be interpreted as them mimicking Anthy and Utena's later series night time going-to-bed ritual or purely symbolic imagery... but I am fairly sure it's all three.  It's a parallel to Anthy and Utena's relationship, symbolic and meaningful in that regard, and totally a shadowed shot of a dick going inside of a butt. 

The reason sex in SKU was for the most part only heavily implied is threefold.  The show had a rating to adhere to, the show was not meant to be porn and most of time the creators wanted to present sexual ambiance, this feeling of sex bleeding into every character's relationship and self-reflection and coloring and confusing it, just as it does for many real life adolescents.  Nanami fears what may be sexual feelings for her brother, for example, whether or not they actually exist, because Akio's MO is to confuse both maturity and love for sex.  When he and Utena have sex that is exactly what Utena thinks... that that is what people who love each other do.  Touga is drawn to Akio's power, maturity and sexuality because they are all presented as one and the same.  He rides in Akio's car and has sex with Akio and gets to play around being the dueling scenes and it's all the same thing to him.  It's a fallacy, that maturity (or power) is a matter of sexual experience and love is an expression or means of sexual desire... but then again Akio's the antagonist, isn't he?

Not every character was having sex with every other character, but sexual over and under tones permeate the majority of SKU relatioships regardless of the gender of those involved or the nature of their relationship (siblings, friends, rivals).  Most of the time that's what we are talking about.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (07-18-2012 08:27:51 PM)

What a way for sexual males to "flaunt their sexuality in front of each other" without actually having sex! I wonder what kinda team sport horse play this is supposed to symbolize; maybe rubby . . . I mean, rugby?  Or is there some kinda below-the-waist-wrestling thing out there I'm yet unaware of?

edited to add: Already in the process of writing out SKU: Non-Out-Of_Left-Field Remix

It's a crack fic as inspired by the following thread http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=3134 at IRG, which just fills me with creative energy and non-stop laugher for the past 24 hrs.  Even though I’m falling really behind on my main SKU fic (who knew the Nemuro Research Era would be so cumbersome to put in words), I had to get this out of my system so my mind can snap back to serious mode and I can continue Seinen.  No insult is meant towards the brave soul who is april6e – I’m genuinely thankful to this poster for prompting Frau Eva to churn out that awesome post, which provides the fertile soil for the little gem I'm about to unleash on this forum. 

May have to double post the link later so do allow me to apologize in advance

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (07-19-2012 10:12:36 AM)

april6e wrote:

1. Akio had sex with almost every female/male in the anime.

Akio is a beast, but I don't see any evidence in the anime that he had sex with Touga, Saionji, or many of the females you wish he did. The bed scene with Touga and Akio doesn't seem to promote any view that they had a relationship at all. It's a common thing in anime for two highly sexual males to "flaunt" their sexuality in front of each other. If you are a male and have ever done swimming/track/any team sport where you take a shower afterwards, you take showers naked with the guys all the time and do silly things like touch them jokingly or flaunt your "manhood" but this doesn't come close to suggesting you guys have orgies together.

2. Juri is lesbian/bi

This is one of my greatest peeves. There isn't anything close to even come close to suggesting she is lesbian. Bi, you have more of an argument but people act like they've never seen two close female friends before. It's a typical American attitude that if two female are really close, they must be lesbians. Straight women here can vouch that they've probably sleep together with their best friend as a child if not been naked together or even touched their friends sensually. It's normal and you can do it without sexual intention, guys can't fathom this.


4. Miki and his sister

His sister is one of the most interesting characters in anime. She didn't have sex with her brother, Miki didn't have sex with anyone. Despite what one might think about anyone getting in Akio pimpmobile.

I respectfully disagree. Juri says she's upset because she never got a chance to tell Shiori how she feels at one point and one of the staff members confirms that she was in love with her. As for Akio and Touga's relationship, I doubt it's mindless fanservice. Well okay, it is fanservice, but I think we can safely say it's not just subtext as evidenced in the shot gorgeousshutin posted.

I agree that Kozue didn't have sex with Miki but I think she really wants to.   I'm one of the few who thinks he doesn't feel the same way about her.