Adrasteia wrote:

Here's a picture of William Blake's interpretation of Jacob's Ladder, for anyone else interested.

http://www.realnothings.com/blakeimage.jpg

That's the picture I thought when this was discussed earlier. There's just one problem to the interpretation: Jacob's Ladder is supposed to go a long way down, before it goes up into the heavens, symbolizing the difficulty of the road. It's like there's only half of it in Utena. Then again, there isn't anything very heavenly about the Duelling Arena...

Lightice wrote:

Adrasteia wrote:

Here's a picture of William Blake's interpretation of Jacob's Ladder, for anyone else interested.

http://www.realnothings.com/blakeimage.jpg

That's the picture I thought when this was discussed earlier. There's just one problem to the interpretation: Jacob's Ladder is supposed to go a long way down, before it goes up into the heavens, symbolizing the difficulty of the road. It's like there's only half of it in Utena. Then again, there isn't anything very heavenly about the Duelling Arena...

...actually, I have a theory on that:

What is hell? A terrible place full of discontent and strife, right? The worst of the world in other words. Heaven is supposed to be a place closest to God and the Grace of God, like the best of the world.

The Duelling Arena is a place where strife dictates which wins: a discontent, like Juri's struggle with a hidden love, Miki's struggle with a half-forgotten stunted love, Touga's lack of content and the like versus Utena going generally going with higher ideals, earning the favor of her Goddess of the Earth, and yet gaining the Grace of a vaguely Judeo-Christian God figure. To (supposedly) earn the way to the Castle, she must wallow in the strife and sins of her challengers to prove Nobility enough to ascend into the Castle-the stairway may be going spatically up, but morally, it is definently going down.

Lightice wrote:

That's the picture I thought when this was discussed earlier. There's just one problem to the interpretation: Jacob's Ladder is supposed to go a long way down, before it goes up into the heavens, symbolizing the difficulty of the road. It's like there's only half of it in Utena.

That's why we have the Black Rose Arc! There's definitely a way down, too.

[img][/img]*NECRO'D*

Taking a look at Saionji and Touga's relationship as symbolized by bike-riding.  Or, an experiment in refraining from making buttsex jokes.


The first time we see the two riding a bike together is in Saionji's flashback, when they were children.   A bike is another form of transportation, of way of moving forward.  In this case, the bike symbolizes them moving forward together, growing up together.  Saionji is facing Touga, and forward, because he is imaging being friends with him much farther along down the road, idealistically, forever.

I remember Gio mentioning that both Saionji and Touga need each other.  This shot (I think) shows a great example of this. 

Saionji: I told you it was gonna rain.
Saionji: That's why I told you to stop at the 10th match.
Touga: Oh, well. There isn't anyone good enough to practice with besides you.
Saionji: Well... I guess...

I don't think Touga ever had many friends, at least of the male variety.  He was rich, intimidating, long-haired and sheltered.  The aloof rich-boy know one knew anything about.  I'm a girl so I can't say I have the best opinion in this matter, but I'd wager that most boys found Touga off-putting.

Speaking of which, Saionji seems a little confused at Touga's reasoning.  He doesn't think he was the only one good enough to practice with Touga, and does not realize that Touga didn't actually mean it.  In reality, there wasn't anyone willing to practice with him.  Even at a young age Touga is learning to mask his faults and weaknesses behind a veil of superiority and indifference. 

It's not any fault of his own that no one wants to spar with him.  It's something in them, something that they lack that he has, that is behind it.

Touga and Saionji's relationship begins to take a turn for the worse when Touga starts to really believe it. 

Touga: I'm always on the girl's side...
Touga: ...because I am a gentleman.

Anyway, back to the picture.  Touga needs Saionji for the simple reason that he needs a friend.  Saionji holds both of their bokkan in his hand to symbolize this; that he is the only person who practices with Touga.

Now for why Saionji needs Touga.  There are many aspects of Saionji's behavior and personality, along with other clues throughout the series, that suggest he may or may not have had a very happy home life.  Perhaps his parents divorced, or one of them is violent.  Life at home may not be stable economically or emotionally.   Touga is there for him as a friend, and offers him this much needed support and stability, which is why he wraps his arm around Touga's waist --to keep him stable and balanced so he does not fall off--.

At this point, we already see a little of something that Touga has and Saionji lacks.  Saionji is wary and cautious, while Touga is self-assured and unworried.  Saionji has been once bitten, and is now twice-shy.

Think back to Touga injuring Saionji during a practice match and then wrapping a bandage around his wounded hand.  The bandage represented Touga healing an old wound of Saionji's by helping him re-establish his belief in something eternal, something that makes him happy that he can depend on.  A good friend.  The color white here can also be seen as symbolizing a prince. 

Therefore, it is Saionji's wounded hand that he uses to grip Touga.  He is still healing, and putting his faith in to he and Touga's friendship.




Touga opening up the coffin open's up Saionji's old wound.  What do you expect to find when you open up a coffin?  A dead body, proof that life is not eternal.  Touga ignores Saionji's pleas to stop and opens it anyway.  Both Touga's indifference and the little girl's words put a serious dent in the belief he had built up of being happy forever with his friend.  That the world isn't a cruel and fickle and undependable place, and that good things can last.

He was what, nine years old?  To suddenly feel as though life was, essentially, pointless, at such a young age --an age where one should be looking forward to the future but still imagining it as a long long way off with plenty of time left for silly fun-- must have been a bit traumatizing. 




The day afterwords and the little girl has left her coffin.  Saionji suspects that Touga may have had something to do with it, and feels betrayed.  He is no longer on the bike with Touga, deciding that in the end, there is no one he can depend on but himself.


Skipping ahead...


Here we have a very different Saionji, a changing Touga, and a whole new, but entirely the same, bike ride.  They aren't facing the same direction in this picture, possibly because unlike when they were children, Saionji doesn't expect to spend the rest of his life with Touga in it, so he is not looking at him.  He is looking away because he not imaging a future for them like he did when was a child.  If they don't stay friends after high school, it won't be the end of the world.

They also may not be facing each other because they do not share the same perspective regarding revolution.  Touga is looking forward, still completely wrapped up in the duels and unable to see anything not regarding them, and Saionji is obviously not.

This is not to say that Saionji isn't happy in this picture.  Saionji realizes now that some things aren't eternal.  But now he doesn't look so much at life in terms all of eternity and focuses more on what's right in front of him.  He and Touga can be friends, right here, right now.  It may not be forever, but it does make him happy, and that's all the reason he needs to continue his relationship.  He also realizes that he does not need to beat Touga or go chasing after some vague all-powerful force or answer in order to do this.  He does not need the power to control the entire world to make parts of it the way he needs in order to be happy.  He can do it himself.  Saionji now puts faith in himself not because he thinks he is the only one he can depend on, but because he truly believes in himself, and not some castle in the sky.  And besides, all he really has to do to be friends with someone is forgive and be, well, friendly.

Back to the picture.  They are leaning on each other's backs.  To me, it screams male camaraderie and gets that "Lean on Me" song stuck in my head.

Saionji accepts that he does want to be friends with Touga and needs that friendship.  He leans on him unrestrainedly, to the point where Touga has to grunt with exertion to bear his weight. (Really getting hard to not make those kind of jokes right about now.)  He is quite relaxed and unashamed of this. 






Touga speeds up (trying to rely on his own strength), then stops the bike.  He knows he cannot move forward in this manner.

Touga then leans back, accepting that he too needs Saionji.  (Especially at this point in the series, Saionji seems to have a knack for keeping Touga more down to earth and giving his ego some much needed shrinking.)  Unlike Saionji, however, he is not as comfortable with the situation.  It's not until the end of the scene that he fully lets himself fall back on Saionji.  He looks as though he's admitted defeat.   He then relaxes, this isn't so bad, and his tone of his voice when he remarks how long it's been since they've ridden a bike together is almost incredulous. 

Touga: Man, it's been a while since you and I rode a bike together.
Saionji: Yeah. I wonder how long...

Saionji answers in a tone mildly amused and nostalgic.  It's as if the both of them are wondering why on earth it took them ten years to fix their friendship, when it was, in the end, quite a simple thing to do. 

He who believes in friendship is a fool.

When it comes to friendship, you can be a friend, but you can't make others be your friend.  It's not some fairy tale you just believe in and it comes true, it's something you try to create.   He who believes in friendship is a fool, but he who hopes for friendship is not.



>.> I don't think I explained myself very well or really made the point I was aiming for.  >< Sorry, I never actually planned to post any of this because I don't think it's all that great, but I was sad to see this thread getting old, so I threw this together to revitalize it.


P.S- Saionji has amazing balance.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (11-08-2009 03:22:14 PM)

Don't sell yourself short, OnlyInThisLight. The whole time I read that I was beating myself up for not understanding the scene as well as you did.

I have no explanation for this really, just something I think about almost every episode, and finally feel the need to question.



Although I know that shadowplay can distort sizes, I don't think it's pure force of nature that A-Ko and B-Ko can cover this entire wall, while in reality, it is much larger than people are:



The only conclusion I can draw is that their size represents something otherworldly, something that is beyond reality. They are figures of a fairy-tale world, and as such, are not bound by normal limitations.

There are two flaws with this, though-- what about C-Ko? She certainly looks no taller than Utena. But then, she appears in the Black Rose saga, and the questions she presents are ones with seemingly obvious solutions. This is why Utena so easily replies to her, and rarely seems offput by the situation at hand in this particular arc. The second flaw would be the found in episode 34. Two girls who appear to be the actual A-Ko and B-Ko invite Utena to their performance. I believe that perhaps the reason for this is because the girls seem to know something Utena doesn't whenever they appear on the wall. They're stringing out a little metaphor for the underlying problems the characters in question are facing. When they put on their little play for Utena, it is no longer classified information. They aren't out of the realm of possibility, because they are sharing their knowledge with Utena. This could also be because the information presented in The Tale of the Rose isn't exactly accurate.

Thanks for the compliments guys    I'm already looking back on my post and wanting to change things (Saionji's age, whether Touga was the innocent one, or Saionji....)

Anyway, as for Dollface's question and the Shadowgirls:

I think it's the whole reality vs. dreams theme coming into play.  Dreams, princes, archetypes and fairy tales and all stories/legends in general are not real, and are thus not bound by the laws governing mortals. They are also, because they are not true, different in reality (Fairytale prince was actually just a boy, whose persona was reshaped by the perceptions and desires of a society demanding a prince to look to and save them, once he failed in being the fairytale prince, he became what he saw as reality; Akio). The shadow girls are so huge because they represent this:  They look like fantastic, larger than life, shape-shifting spectres, but it is just trick of the light (the way we see reality from differing perspectives alters it in our own eyes).  In reality, they are just normal-sized schoolgirls.


Dios was a prince, but was not perfect, but people needed him to be, saw him that way, and so he became that way.


But not really


His archtypical self that was created, the "fairytale Prince", is about as real as the shadow girls plays on the wall.

Could someone help me to understand some of the symbolism to episode 36, Touga's last duel? I'm not a huge fan of Touga (he's sort of my antithesis), but this is one of my favorite episodes of the series. I really love the duel song in particular, and would be so grateful if someone could help me to interpret that. Thanks!

Last edited by hayama (05-18-2008 08:58:45 AM)

Ok, so here's my thoughts on Nanami's Akio arc duel episodes, starting with the first episode "Her Tragedy."  It's only the first part, I'll post the rest later.  I.E- When I damn well please.

Warning, even though I resized all the images, there are still a lot of them.  And I also over-analyze and talk too much.  It less like an analysis and more like incoherent ramblings.  I apologize beforehand.

Also, before I start.  These are just my opinions and interpretations.  Take of them what you will, but one thing I want to make clear, I firmly believe that Nanami does not have any sexual interest in her brother whatsoever, and he knows this.  I began writing this as a way to explain why I feel this way.


~Her Tragedy~




Nanami: Yes, this is the Kiryuu residence.
Nanami: If you want my brother, he's out right now.
Nanami: If you're in a hurry why don't you try calling his cel phone.
Nanami: Oh, you don't know it? Well that won't work then.
Nanami: I can tell him for you if you want.
Nanami: What matter is this-
Nanami: What a stupid girl. I'm not like you all.
Nanami: My brother and I are siblings. We're blood relations.

The episode opens at the Kiryuu's residence.  The phone rings and Nanami picks it up.  The roses on the table are yellow, her signature color, and the phone matches her as well.  The picture in the background shows a singular shadow girl playing with a hoop.  As Nanami converses with the girl on the other end of the phone, she smiles and looks very sure of herself, and the shadow girl begins to push the hoop up an incline.  This scene radiates the confidence Nanami has in herself as her brother's sister.

As she mocks the girl on the phone, the shadow girl pushes the hoop up, symbolising Nanami gaining an upperhand.  As she then declares that she is nothing like that girl, she hangs up the phone and we see the same shadow girl now playing jump rope with another girl.

This can represent two things.  The first is that the girl with the hoop represents Nanami, and the second girl represents Touga.  At first, Nanami is playing by herself and having fun, but then changes the game she is playing in order to play with her brother, even though they are both still using separate ropes, so that while even though Nanami is sacraficing something to be with or like her brother, there is still a distance between them.

The second, and I believe more accurate assumption, is that the girl in the first picture still represents Nanami, but as an individual doing her own thing.  The second picture shows Nanami now playing the same game as another girl as the real Nanami declares that she is nothing at all like all those 'other girls' who chase after her brother.  Whether she realizes it or not, this represents Nanami's hidden fear of being just another faceless girl (hence why the girls in the photo are our beloved shadow players).

The phone itself represents the powerful position Nanami feels she is in as she denys the other girl on the phone the chance to speak with her brother.  It is Nanami's own phone, and is symbolic of the specific and special connection she holds with her brother.




Touga: Hello? Oh, it's you.
Touga: Yeah. No, that's not it. Yeah.
Touga: Of course I wouldn't go out with that girl. Yeah.
Touga: My cel phone was out for repairs. Really.
Touga: Of course not...I wouldn't turn it off when you might call.
Touga: You're the only one, baby.

In the next scene, Nanami eavesdrops on a conversation Touga is having with an unamed girl in the rose garden.  While he holds her and smiles as if sharing a private joke, he reassures the girl on the other end of the line that she is the 'only one.'

So. Just as Nanami's phone represented her and her relationship with Touga, which is exclusive and strong in her eyes, Touga's phone represents his relationship with all of his floozies, in which he treats them all the same and holds little value for any one specific girl.






Nanami: Wow, what a surprise!
Nanami: It says here that matches between type B people are the worst.
Nanami: That's gotta be a lie, right?
Nanami: Our father's B, our mother's B, I'm B - we're a type-B family.
Nanami: But it says that we're incompatible-
Touga: Not interested.
Nanami: Where're you going?
Touga: The shower. Wanna come with me?
Touga: Just kidding.

Later on that night, Nanami and Touga are reading together outside of the house.  An empty chair sits between them, representing both the growing distance between the two, and a missing link, i.e- two siblings and no parents or anything equally substantial to bind them together or explain their closeness.  The absence of such a link becomes an important factor later on in Akio and Touga's manipulations of Nanami.

Nanami is reading a magazine article on blood types and compatibility, and exclaims surprise that type B's don't get along, when that can't be true because their family is type B, and they get along fine.  Touga closes his book and claims disinterest, a none-too subtle way to say that he disagrees with Nanami's naive belief that they have a happy family.

He turns to leave and when Nanami asks where he is going, he says he's taking a shower and asks if she wants to join him, allowing an extremely awkward moment to pass before he tells her that he is only joking.

Nanami mentions afterwords that she and her brother used to do everything together, even bathe. Touga uses this to his advantage, rather cruelly dangling the idea in front her and mocking it by letting her realize the sexual implications of such an act on her own. 

Older brothers and sisters do not bathe together, because such an act is considered both sexual and incestuous.  The thing separating these two siblings, the thing that taints their relationship and keeps Nanami perpetually trying to remain a child (by throwing tantrums, refusing to seriously consider any relationship with another man, etc.), is sex. 

No one reading this should be the least bit surprised.

The toad represents Touga in this case, a frog-prince, or more accurately, someone pretending to be one.  When Touga asks if Nanami wants to join him in the shower, he is making a jibe at what they used to do as kids, but no longer can, and is playing on Nanami's desire to have her brother be her prince.  The fly is Nanami, both because she is ensnared by her brother and falling for his trap, and because in being manipulated and addressed sexually by him, she is just like all the other insect-girls that swarm around him.

Nanami is embarrassed not because she actually does have incestous feelings for her brother, but because she embarrassed by her own naivete and the horrible, horrible, fear that she might be.







Nanami: We used to do everything together.
Nanami: Eat, and sleep, and bathe...
Nanami: But now my brother won't pay any attention to me at all.
Nanami: Must siblings have to grow apart like this?

Nanami reminiscing on her and her brother's relationship as children, and her fear that all relationships such as hers and her brother's are destined to fall apart.  The window opens (possibly to represent that all important new wind of sex and adolesence bursting into her life) and blows the pictures to the floor, symbolically destroying Nanami's childlike (her face in the fourth picture is the same shot used to represent childishness, as Razarra pointed out, in Mitsuru's BR episode) dream of retaining her innocent prince/princess relationship with her brother.








Ah, the infamous shower scene!  In which Nanami plays peeping tom on her brother whilst he is scrubbing his body clean.

The truth is less disurbing, yet more so.  Nanami is looking at her brother as a man.   That is no little boy's body behind the screen.  Not only that, but because he is nude, she is also seeing him, whether she wants to or not, in a sexual setting. 

Nomatter how hard Nanami denies her own self turning into a woman, and represes her own sexuality in order to keep her and her brother in the happy, innocent childhood roles they once played, she can do nothing to deny the fact that Touga has become an adult.  (At least as far as Nanami is concerned).

The spinning red rose, Touga's rose of passion, represents the conflicting images of what Nanami wants to see, which is not an adult Touga, and the reality of what she actually does see.

It goes back to her fear that only childhood male and female siblings can be close, can be princes and princesses, and that adult male and female siblings cannot.

Once she realizes this, she fears losing her only connection she has to her brother, now that he at least is no longer a child, and reaches out desperately for the only connection she can, his cell phone and the more sexually-based bond he holds with his numerous girlfriends. 

This is not to say that she now wishes to have a sexual relationship with her brother, but that she is trying, in her own weird way, to understand why it is Touga has a relationship with them in the first place, and what an adult relationship is.  Nanami is trying to figure out what being a woman means, while still remaining a child by hiding behind anonymity through Touga's cell phone.

Is this what I am destined to become?  Just another woman?

After she shuts the door Touga turns, looking unsurprised.








girl: Touga? Where are you? It's so boring cause there's noone but girls here.
girl: Hey, wanna come over now?
girl: How come you aren't saying anything?
girl: A-ha, I bet there's a girl there, isn't there?
Nanami: There is.
girl: Hey, wait...who're you?
Nanami: Weren't you told the new number? Poor thing.
Nanami: Maybe you got dumped.
girl: Touga-san, why didn't you come to me yesterday?
girl: I waited all the way until morning.
girl: All the food I made for you went to waste...
girl: No, that doesn't matter. Do you hate me?
girl: Say something.
girl: Hey, please. Let me hear your voice.
Nanami: You dummy. He dumped you.
During the first call, Nanami shows obvious displeasure, both at the girl's audacity and flirting, and at the increasing evidence showing the the kind of ladies' man Touga really is.
The second girl's words hit a little closer to home.  Not only was this girl one of Touga's conquests, but she was also ignored and abandoned by him, and yet despite how much this hurts her, she still wants to please him and be recognized by him.  The similarity between this girl's plight and her own deeply upsets Nanami, and she begins to feel more and more like just another fly in the swarm.
Below in the courtyard, we can see Touga surrounded by girls and eating it up.  Nanami not only sees similarities bewtween those ordinary girls and herself, but also something even more disturbing.  All of those girls, when not talking to Touga, mill about and talk to eachother in groups and pairs, happy with or without him.  Touga doesn't mean as much to those girls as he does to Nanami.  They all have their own lives outside of Touga, while she feels she does not.  Ouch.

Keiko: Type-B people make the absolute worst mates.
Aiko: What type're you?
Keiko: B.
Aiko: That prediction's really right on.
Keiko: Nanami-sama, what blood type was Touga-sama again?
Keiko: Nanami-sama?
Nanami: What're you gonna do after you predict?
Keiko, Akio, and Yuuko's appearance does little to help lessen Nanami's feelings regarding her apparent lack of individuality, as Keiko, someone she sees as ordinary, boring, inferior and commonplace, is reading the same article on bloodtypes as Nanami was earlier, and also shares the same bloodtype as her.

But, at least, Touga never returns any of the other girl's feelings completely, right?  He still gives Nanami some small grain of sisterly attention, while denying them any true interest.  They all chase after him, not the other way around.

Then Utena and Anthy make an appearance, and she sees Touga flirting heavily with Utena, which is nothing new, but Utena only rebuffs him at every turn.  In this case, Touga is doing the chasing, which sets Utena apart from all those other nameless girls, and from Nanami herself.  Utena further sets herself apart as her own individual person, and not a part of the swarm, by rebuking Touga's advances.








Nanami: It's all your fault!
Utena: What?
Nanami: It's your fault my brother started being cold to me.
Utena: What're you talking about?!
Nanami: Don't play dumb.
Utena: Play dumb about what?
Nanami: Quit hitting on my brother!

Which, of course, leads Nanami into her angry IT'S ALL UTENA'S FAULT mode.  Even now, Nanami lies and tries to lay blame solely on Utena, protecting her brother and, subsequentially, herself, from the idea that Touga has an attraction to Utena.  Another example of Nanami being, well, Nanami - lying to herself and acting out to get attention, using her childishness as a barrier against the truth.

Utena: Hey, wait a sec Nanami!
Anthy: Look out, Utena-sama!
Akio: Practical jokes are a bad idea in the stairwell.
Nanami: Who're you?
Utena: Akio-san...
Nanami: The Chairman of the Board?

Before Nanami has a chance to do any serious harm, Anthy (the good-timing fairy) mysteriously loses her banana.  Nanami slips on a banana peel, drops the statues, and falls down the stairs, only to be swept off her feet by the handsome and charming Akio.

Akio's entrance is important.  Unlike with Utena, Akio makes a show of introducing himself as a prince to Nanami, by rescuing her.

And Anthy get's her banana back, too.  I'm glad everyone got a happy ending.






Akio bandages Nanami's injured ankle, another 'princely' act.  Then, while handing Utena the first-aid box, Utena's flustered reaction and blushing tip Nanami off that Utena has feelings for Akio.  Secretly, Nanami likes this, as Akio in turn does not show any unusual amount of interest towards Utena in return. Big points for prince!Akio!

Anthy, at this point, has left to go get a snack, but mostly because Akio needs for the two of them to present an innocent brother-sister relationship to Nanami, and his actions with Utena in the presence of Anthy would remind Nanami too much of what she doesn't like about her and Touga's own relationship.  As soon as Anthy returns, he focuses on her far more than Utena, which gains him more Nanami points.






(loldon'teatyellowsnow)
Anthy: Here we are, shaved ice.
Anthy: Here, oniisama. Say "ah".
Akio: "Ah".
Nanami: Siblings?
Anthy: Yes.
Akio: My irreplaceable sister.

Anthy serves them all student council-flavored shaved ice.  As she feeds Akio spoonfuls of Miki, Nanami learns that Anthy is Akio's younger sister.  This is the second thing Akio needs to pretend to be, -an awesome big brother.  Nanami is ensnared; a perfect prince and a perfect big brother all in one?  It's what she's always told herself she's wanted.

Note Akio's use of the word 'irreplacable' to desribe his feelings for his little sister.  Nanami WANT.

Anthy: Here, oniisama. Say "ah".
Akio: "Ah".
Anthy: Oniisama, the inside of your mouth is all blue.
Akio: Yours is all red.
Anthy: Here, oniisama. Say "ah".
Akio: "Ah".

Of course, the first thing she feels is a sting of jealousy towards Anthy for being his sister, as she watches the two play the roles of innocent, playful, and loving brother and sister.  Surely Touga would never do something so childish as eat shaved ice with her and make jokes about the colors of their tongues. 



Nanami: That sort really has it good.
Utena: They're really flaunting it, aren't they?
Nanami: I'm talking about the Chairman.
Utena: Oh, um.

Nanami is talking about Akio and Anthy, while Utena is talking about a couple kissing in the park.  There is alot of confusion for both the fans and Nanami in this episode regarding weather or not Nanami wants a big brother out of Touga, or a boyfriend.  Nanami makes it clear that she is talking about, and is only interested in, the first. 

I'm not familar with the statue shown, but it's a greek woman with her breasts exposed, 'flaunting' her womanliness and sexuality, which is something both Nanami and Utena have trouble with and is what Utena first thinks Nanami is talking about.  (boobies -> sex -> the couples kissing)



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


TBC

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (10-09-2008 03:35:53 PM)

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

I'm not familar with the statue shown, but it's a greek woman with her breasts exposed, 'flaunting' her womanliness and sexuality, which is something both Nanami and Utena have trouble with and is what Utena first thinks Nanami is talking about.  (boobies -> sex -> the couples kissing)

We have a discussion on the statues somewhere in here. It may be earlier in this thread, or we had another thread about it. I don't remember.

EDIT: Found it!

Last edited by Raven Nightshade (06-05-2008 04:00:31 PM)

NECRO'D FOR GREAT JUSTICE.

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Anthy serves them all student council-flavored shaved ice.

Notice the distinct lack of Juri? I think she's probably the only cast member who can look Akio in the eye and say DO NOT WANT. (Of course, it wouldn't be a far stretch to say that yellow is meant to be Juri, but I can only assume it's Nanami.) But you're as amazing as ever, OITL.

Anyway, I'm here to pop in on a scene that has already been analyzed to death and beyond the grave. Utena's sex scene-- well, actually, just a point leading up to it.



From what I can identify, Akio and Utena seem to be playing Othello (sometimes called Reversi). This scene is a vital one to me because it simply has so many interpretations. If you're unfamiliar with the game, here's a quick definition:

Wikipedia wrote:

Reversi/Othello is an abstract strategy board game which involves play by two parties on an eight-by-eight square grid with pieces that have two distinct sides. Pieces typically appear coin-like, but with a light and a dark face, each side representing one player. The object of the game is to make your pieces constitute a majority of the pieces on the board at the end of the game, by turning over as many of your opponent's pieces as possible.

You can just smell the symbolism, can't you? If we ignore the dialogue and it's context in the show, and simply focus on the game, the metaphor seems to play out multiple ways. For one, it could simply be about the dueling. Although each duelist seems to state at one point that they do not wish to fight for Anthy or for the power to bring revolution, Akio is able to manipulate them back into their roles. His Othello pieces slowly dominate the board, which already has boundaries set. This is a game-- to gain power of revolution. Ohtori Academy may be an entirely separate universe from the one we live in, but it is still Akio's board where he may move his pieces as he pleases.

The next metaphor would be Utena's internal battle. The shots we see of the board progress as such:



Under the natural assumption that Utena is the white team and Akio is the black, the two start out pretty equal-- 6 to 8. Utena's pieces are laid out in a straight line both directions. Ignoring the actual rules of the game and the placement, you can still see how Akio's pattern is a more complex one. It has pieces surrounding Utena's, as though he were trapping her. His plans are secretive and hard to determine, while Utena's ideals are laid in plain sight. She is naive, but she is honest. Her feelings are never hidden-- at least, not this early in the game. You could go so far as to say that Utena has not even entered Ohtori Academy at this point.



What's this? Utena has taken the lead! As the noble victor and chosen duelist, Utena has the hand of the Rose Bride and the heart of a champion. Her straightforwardness has turned out to be quite endearing, and for the time being, it doesn't work against her. Akio's plans seem to stay similar to their original design. He's not a threat on the surface, but he has her covered from every angle. He may not have her trapped, but it will only take a few strategic moves to win her over.



And win her over he does! Her thoughts of nobility remain locked, but without a doubt, Akio's grip on her has tightened. His plans have finally connected, and he has collectively won the board over, as well as Utena's trust and affection.

As she realizes this fact, far too late to change anything, she cries out:

Utena:  Huh? The tables got turned.

Though I actually prefer the dub's translation of this:

Utena:   Hey, when did I start losing?

But what about the dialogue? That counts for something.

Utena:  It's easy to mess up measures, isn't it?
Utena:  A while ago, I messed up when measuring macaroni and ended up filling this great big pot.
Utena:  And, it's really bad when you mess up the seasonings.
Utena:  If you're not careful you start putting in more and more and end up screwing up.
Utena:  Portions that would feed three turn into enough for ten and stuff.
Utena:  And you can't exactly undo it.
Utena:  Well, you can think you're just saving it for later...
Utena:  for hamburgers and lunchboxes and stuff like that...
Utena:  But that won't work for stuff like stews.
Utena:  You always try to do just what it says in the book, right?
Utena:  You do just what it says and the flavor always seems to come out wrong, doesn't it?
Utena:  I wonder why.
Utena:  Huh? The tables got turned.

Utena, will your gluttony never cease? Not every minute is dinner talk.

First and foremost, what exactly are seasons and measurements? I mean, really, they could be any number of things. I like to take them as her balance between prince and princess. There's no reason why she can't protect Anthy and love Akio at the same time, right? But it's so easy to mess with the delicate balance of the two. Her nobility and her heart seem to conflict, and when she overdoes one, it becomes a mistake she can't easily fix. Right now, her measurements are leaning more towards Akio; the very fact that she's in this hotel with him is proof of that. But can she ever go back now? Hasn't she stepped a little too far? Although, if she leans more towards nobility, as she has in the past, she reaches past the point of protecting herself and Anthy, and now she is saddled with the responsibility of bringing the world revolution-- a serving to feed 10 people.

But what does it mean to "do things by the book"? To trust her head over her heart? Or perhaps it applies to Utena's nonconformist attitude. When she tries to be a normal girl, or even when she tries to be Akio's girl, it just comes out wrong, and not Utena. Though the feelings may be real, it still isn't something natural for her. Her guilt for betraying Anthy to be with Akio may be the "wrong flavor" that she's talking about.

But she still succumbs to her desires and momentary instincts, and that is the point when the tables are turned, so to speak.



When the game first begins, when the two are 6 to 8, Utena is looking at the board, and carefully planning her next move. She's going to be a prince! She's going to be strong and noble! She's going to meet Dios again someday! And if she hopes to achieve this, she'll have to focus hard. Utena is very strong-willed and more that a little hard-headed, and early in the show, it is especially important to her personality. After all, she is blood type B.



But what's this? As the game progresses, Utena isn't even looking at her own footsteps anymore. She's just stumbling along, her eyes fixed on Akio. She's smiling, and her Othello piece is turned to show the white side. She still believes she is doing what's right. She still has a glimmer of hope that she will save Anthy. But Akio's got his claws in her now, and as the game pieces show, she has submitted.

One final point point before I shut up about this-- what is the significance of this particular game? Why are they playing it? And why do we call it Othello instead of Reversi? Simple; because of the symbolism this name holds. In 1970, the game was renamed as Othello in reference to Shakespeare's Othello, The Moor of Venice. Othello was described as two-faced, represented by the white and the black. This describes our main players-- Akio, Anthy, and Utena.

Akio is, of course, the most notable. You could take this in the literal sense and say that white represents Dios, the prince, while Black is Akio, End of the World. It could also take meaning to the roles that he plays-- for Utena and Anthy he serves as a prince, though the two roles are very different, Utena's obviously being the more pure while Anthy's is tainted.

Anthy is represented as the princess and the witch, and both come together to shape her role as the Rose Bride. Again, Anthy is also a very different character between her two princes, Akio/Dios and Utena. For Akio, it is her role to serve him while silently reminding him of his failures. They both need each other, both love each other, and both despise each other. She becomes dirty for him-- black. Utena, on the other hand, serves as the victor, but doesn't literally control Anthy. However, Anthy only acts as Utena wishes her to act. So, for Utena, Anthy is a sweet girl who is lonely and just wants her normal life-- white. These two aspects are both very true for Anthy, no matter how you interpret them, so neither makes up any more of herself than the other (in theory, that is.)

Utena seems to be the last candidate for this rule, but as both a strong prince and a beautiful princess, she has her place. But the question for her becomes blurred-- which side is white and which is black? Yes, as a duelist she wears black while as a bride she wears white(-ish pink), but I think it reaches a little deeper than that. Being a prince and worrying about someone else is noble, right? Caring for herself and her desires is selfish, right? It really just can't be defined.

Luckily, there aren't really white pieces and black pieces-- the pieces are double-sided. While one may dominate, the other never truly vanishes.

So, uh, yeah. I'm not the best at this kind of thing. But if you have any opinions, I'd love to hear 'em!

Last edited by dollface (06-09-2010 03:12:27 PM)

Dollface, that was amazing. I think you're lying when you say you aren't good at this whole analysis of symbolism.

Everything you said was wonderfully thought out and I was bouncing for joy while reading it! I really like your interpretation of Utena's talk on food. That was excellently done, and your insight on the game and how the pieces reflected personality was totally awesome, too! I've never even heard of Othello (the game), so it was quite an interesting read.

OnlyInThisLight , I really enjoyed reading your intepretation of the first episode of Nanami's Apocalypse duel! Have you looked at the second episode at all yet? It's probably one of my favorites of the show. I'd really love to see what you have to say about the duel itself, as Nanami's motives for dueling Utena seem to go so far beyond what they appear to be on the surface.