Stormcrow wrote:

The interesting thing about Kozue to me is that we have no direct evidence that she isn't as smart/talented as Miki.  This allows us the alternative interpretation that she is, but lacks the confidence in herself to let anyone know.  When called upon to play the piano, she just didn't believe that she could do it without Miki, and was too embarrassed to try.  This could well lead to her having bad grades too (speaking from experience here).

Oh god no. They both lack tremendous confidence, Miki putting he's confidence in symbols and Kozue placing hers in he's presence. I don't think Kozue is stupid at all, I'm just trying to get her angle on things, or how she might view the situation. God no. No miniture female Akio with such a finase in manipulation is stupid. I just guessed that she feels she can't meet the expectations of someone she's pigeon holed into being perfect, and just picked the path she did because she feels she has no use to him any other way. And simply because shes afraid he'll forget her.

He's the smart one, he's the genius, he's the innocent. I could have gone off to University with my friends if I had really tried, (I was getting A's in History and English), but at the end I just felt it was pointless, and my failure was just further proof that I'm not at their level.

But at the same time I still Miki expects Kozue to be like him, he expects her to like the piano and continue with it like he did, but her interests just didn't lie with the piano itself, she was just content to have he's attention, but he doesn't seem to see that, as someone else pointed out, he's vision of her is of this curly haired princess, he's shining thing, he's muse, when in fact she was simply herself, but younger. If they really did everything together, he probably assumed it was because she was like him and not because she liked him.

Stormcrow wrote:

This makes her relationship with Miki rather ironic, he knows she can do better and doesn't understand why she seems to make such an effort to appear foolish, while she thinks that he's looking down on her because she's stupid.  This has been going on long enough that they lack a good means of communication and can't simply tell each other what they're feeling, and neither of them has the maturity to forge new ones.  Sad, really.

OMG! Thats spot on. Thats a really good precise way of putting it. I felt the relationship lacked communication because they always dance around eachother and tell other people their business instead of telling eachother, but thats bang on. It is really sad isn't it, it's like their chained to eachother.

Stormcrow wrote:

Going further with this interpretation, she calls him a coward because for the first time, he has failed to live up to her expectations.  Perhaps this will lead her to understand him better and allow her to look at him as a brother and not as a man on a pedestal.  Actually, in this interpretation, I see Kozue as closer to Nanami than Touga, with the whole hero worship thing.

It occurs to me that I should read more of the character analyses at Empty Movement, it's entirely possible that someone already said all of this.

I like that twist on things, that perhaps thats the reason she called him a coward, I was thinking something that it might be because he was unable to get what he wants by ANY means possible, instead of only morally, and she saw that as something cowardly. But it could just be geuine disappointment like you said. After all, its true, he didn't meet her expectations then.

I think Miki and Kozue are both guilty of putting unrealistic expectations on one another.

I don't know if someone has already said what you said, but I'm glad you posted it here anyway.

brian wrote:

In addition there is no evidence that Kozue has real incestuous desires. Even the scene at the piano does not necessarily indicate more than mere childish possessiveness. I recently saw a brother and sister at a family reunion. The sister kept grabbing her brother around the arm and strolling with him like lovers do. I am certain that it had nothing to do with incestuous desire, just possesiveness demonstrated in an inappropriate way.

Kozue's behavior under the influence of the Black Rose is not necessarily an indication of her true self but a caricature of it.

edit: for typo

Awww, the brother and sister sound cute


But do you think there was anything incestrous between the two?? And if you do (or anyone else does) what made you suspect that. (I picked up on intimacy but it didn't occur to me anything incestrous happened between the two-I'm so oblivious to these things )

Extra note: Ragnarok had already explained the coward comment. Yea....Kozue is random....I always just thought....oka~y...no resolution then....no?? Not even a little one....no?? No?? Okay then.

Coco Melancholy wrote:

But do you think there was anything incestrous between the two?? And if you do (or anyone else does) what made you suspect that. (I picked up on intimacy but it didn't occur to me anything incestrous happened between the two-I'm so oblivious to these things )

As in so much else in Utena it comes down to personal opinion. Anthy and Nanami show inappropriate possessiveness and get more than they bargained for. If Miki had reciprocated her advances, when she was under the influence of the Black Rose, Kozue would have ended up as miserable as Anthy in the long run. The problem is that all three of them are proto-sexual in a sense, that is to say that they themselves may not understand (in the beginning) what is sexual and what is not. They also don't know other things about love such as the difference between getting and giving.

brian wrote:

As in so much else in Utena it comes down to personal opinion. Anthy and Nanami show inappropriate possessiveness and get more than they bargained for. If Miki had reciprocated her advances, when she was under the influence of the Black Rose, Kozue would have ended up as miserable as Anthy in the long run. The problem is that all three of them are proto-sexual in a sense, that is to say that they themselves may not understand (in the beginning) what is sexual and what is not. They also don't know other things about love such as the difference between getting and giving.

I think that borders on the banal. While I agree that Kozue's actions are unhealthy, I disagree with your moralizing.

I think OP's analysis makes the most sense to me.

One way to think about Miki's lack of confidence, relative to Touga, is as a result of their difference in age. If Miki were 4 years older than Kozue he might feel easier about shrugging off her advances and Kozue might not feel such a need to compare to him.

And we all know that Nanami is definitely a clown compared to the oh so wonderful Touga.

I've always thought of Kozue as desperate. She keeps feeling the distance between her and Miki growing and seems determined to make him look at her again, hence her sexual exploits. Her fragile psyche makes her easy prey for the Chairman and his insatiable libido. But I think she likes it, too, confused by her adolescence. She's what, thirteen? Pretty fucked up.

Edited for spelling.

Last edited by KillerxXxQueen (06-13-2009 04:37:32 AM)

I think Kozue does have a crush on her brother, whereas Miki just wants to go back to simpler times because he freaks out when she advances on him. In addition to getting him to notice her sexually, I think her rebellious behavior stems from her parents' neglect and unrealistic expectations. 

"So Mom and Dad, I'm not a genius like him? You only call us when you have to? Fine! I won't even try to be a pretty little wind-up doll."

Kozue is one of the most fascinating and messed up players on the Ohtori stage. I like her.

Riri-kins wrote:

I think Kozue does have a crush on her brother, whereas Miki just wants to go back to simpler times because he freaks out when she advances on him.

From my last Utena re-watch, I got the impression that Miki didn't really have any direct sexual feelings for Kozue.  But, unfortunately, what he's looking for in someone he is interested in is a replacement for what he used to have with her, so she's being indirectly pulled into his muddle of confused teenage sexual feelings.  One more reason not to do what he's doing, although episode 37 does make me think that maybe he is learning.

In addition to getting him to notice her sexually, I think her rebellious behavior stems from her parents' neglect and unrealistic expectations. 

"So Mom and Dad, I'm not a genius like him? You only call us when you have to? Fine! I won't even try to be a pretty little wind-up doll."

I still have a hard time really figuring out Kozue, but this, at least, is definitely the case.  I wonder how much of her and Miki's differences might stem from different and gender-inspired expectations their parents placed upon them.  (Of course, in pondering this I am hugely influenced by Jaime and Cersei Lannister in "A Song of Ice and Fire".)

Charuru wrote:

I thought it was the opposite? That their parents had the same expectations but Kozue just happened to not be a genius.

The only thing we see of this is the expectations of piano-playing ability, which do seem to be equal - but, then again, Kozue also seems to play the piano well enough when she has her black rose, and who knows what that means - so this is really just speculation on my part.  But I was thinking about how young girls are usually brought up with tougher expectations about always being good and proper and nice than young boys are, and given that, even as the boy, Miki shows signs of being under a lot of pressure to always be on the straight and narrow, it wouldn't surprise me if the pressure on Kozue had been even worse.  And I could see this being just as big a part of why she's rebelled the way she has as the incident with the piano recital.