So tht Dios would stop hurting himself while helping others. Anthy couldn't bear to witness his sufferings so she sealed him away to protect him, while she suffered in his place.

hyacinth_black wrote:

Maarika wrote:

So tht Dios would stop hurting himself while helping others. Anthy couldn't bear to witness his sufferings so she sealed him away to protect him, while she suffered in his place.

Yup, pretty much that's about it.

She sacrificed herself so that her brother would be safe.

You could also debate the fact that Anthy was jealous because Dios was killing himself over the "princesses" when all she could be was his sister.

Ragnarok wrote:

Although she may not have realized it was a sacrifice at the time. I doubt she expected eternal torment as a result of her actions, not that it would necessarily have stopped her.

I'd say she didn't expect it, really -- which actually begs the question of is it Dios keeping Anthy where she is? ...oh, that's creepy. Which would explain Dios's words to Anthy in a whole new light. See, what I am suddenly thinking is this: Anthy sealed her brother away to protect him, and possibly also because she was jealous of the girls who usurped her place (which is a parallel of Nanami's attitude to Touga, and sits well as Anthy and Dios appear as children in the flashback...and Anthy isn't necessarily wanting a sexual relationship with her brother, she was just wanting everything to be the way it was when they were children, when SHE was the most important girl to him...because in an adult world she can't be his princess, but in a child's world she can be his sister and sister trumps princess at that age). She was then attacked by the people outside, and yet she didn't die. Why was that? Because she had the power of Dios inside of her, and that kept her alive when she otherwise should have died.

Which like I said, is creepy. And this is why Dios can't save her -- it's his power, sure, but Anthy's sealed it away where he can't access nor use it...so irony of ironies, she's trapped herself in eternal suffering that her prince cannot save her from. Cue...Utena!

Thank you, I understand much better now! SKU is really confusing sometimes!

Theoretically, Dios wouldn't have the chance to fall as he'd kill himself living up to his ideals. If someone was completely selfless in all respects they could not survive in the real world. (Food alone would be a problem there.) If Anthy hadn't interjected and/or Dios wasn't nearly dead at 'that' time, he'd still be travelling a one way road to martyrism. Or he could compromise, and through that the fall to Akio would come about; one step on a slippery slope at a time.

I have more to say about this, but for now: something I have always found interesting is the way Dios' appearance changes. (NOT Akio's, I'm talking about the representation of Dios himself.) Sometimes, as in Utena's flashback, he looks extremely childlike; other times, he appears more like a teenager, as in the ending episodes where he interacts (kinda) with Utena and Akio. Could that possibly be telling of something?

dollface wrote:

Clarice wrote:

Which like I said, is creepy. And this is why Dios can't save her -- it's his power, sure, but Anthy's sealed it away where he can't access nor use it...so irony of ironies, she's trapped herself in eternal suffering that her prince cannot save her from. Cue...Utena!

Can I.....can I have you?

Heh, I'm an Analysis Whore. I'll put out for anyone who wants some.

dollface wrote:

When Anthy tells the townspeople that they can't have Dios, you really sense some malice in her face and voice. I really couldn't get past that. I've always thought that her sealing him away was from her love, but even moreso from her envy.

And yes, what a crueal twist fate likes to play: She seals her princes powers away so she can finally be his princess, but now he can no longer be a prince and she becomes a witch. <sings>IIIIRONNYYYY</sings>

Ooh, that sounds like a song you'd find in Utena -- The Stage Show! (They need to play that show next to Avenue Q; we just KNOW Akio would offer to perform a version of The Internet Is For Porn...) But yeah, I agree that Anthy's anger was interesting. She was pissed off at them because they wouldn't leave her brother alone, but I think she was also pissed off at her brother because he wouldn't say no. Which is interesting, because Akio has every right to be angry at Anthy, but we tend to think he's the one being a bastard to HER. Ah, I love the way this series hurts my brain...

Giovanna wrote:

One gets the impression Dios and his princesses would never have grown up naturally. Anthy's actions trigger it. Is that the case though? Could Dios have grown up and stayed Dios at all? He's an archetype, any deviation from perfect and he'd fall...so was he born with the other side of the coin already there? Doomed to become Akio one way or another? It's odd to think Anthy would be punished for the crime of pushing someone off a cliff they were already running toward.

I don't think Dios would have necessarily ended up as Akio. Akio is his total opposite, so for someone as noble and pure as Dios to fall so much isn't virtually possible without any cause. That cause, as we know, is Anthy. I think Dios would have followed the same path as Utena did. Meaning that he wouldn't have remained pure and innocent, but he'd become more.... I don't know what's the best word. Aware? of everything. And I suppose even then it's possible to remain noble. I belive Utena never lost it, even after the very end from where we know nothing more about her that she's left Ohtori.

Clarice wrote:

Dios is portrayed at several different ages throughout the show, but rarely at or near Akio's own age. And when he's being at his most princely, he tends to be on the younger side. Is this an implication that Dios would have turned into Akio at some stage anyway even without Anthy's interference? Quite possibly, as the series seems to hint that everybody falls; someone just has to find the right cliff to shove them off (which is Akio's particular speciality). But yes, at some stage I still really need to go back and see what Dios's changing age actually acts as a metaphor for; it means something. Or at least I hope it does, because my brain is hurty enough without Ikuhara fucking it up more. [shakes fist]

I quite agree with this, however, like I mentioned above I don't think Dios would have fallen that much without Anthy's interference.
As for Dios changing his age, I think the main thing here to note is that despite the changes, he remains a child. Which isn't all that bad, since Dios is a good boy. But the flaw of his character also becomes obvious as he doesn't do anything to change himself or to mature. What he's doing is of course noble but he's doing it only for others, he forgets himself in the progress. I think what they want to show with this is maybe that the way Dios lived wasn't right, either. That Dios should have also seen the other side of the life which was about himself. Or something along the lines.

Xu Yuan wrote:

Actually there is slight evidence that an older Dios would turn into a less powerful Akio, forgive me for using this but i'll refer to the movie. Ikuhara says himself that this is a younger Akio, which means a being closer to Dios. This is portrayed quite well by the action's of Akio in the movie, lust and want had begun to overtake his need for purity and selflessness, as is viewed by drugging his sister. Also this is revealed by his lines when she does awake. "Wh-what no! I'm not like that!" Trying to fight back the overcoming lust within his being, eventually leading  himself, in a moment of anguish and grief ending his own life. Of course near the end he comes to "save" Utena and Anthy. He seems to starkly believe that all girls are princesses, I guarantee that even Dios had this thought in mind, but he threw his hopes onto Utena. In the last episode he even talks down to Utena, calling her simply a girl, and how she was unable to free Anthy, then again he could have been taunting her to get up. Series Akio believes the same thing, that no girl can truly become a prince, hence his many attempts to feminize Utena, either way to go back to Movie Akio, I believe he starkly believes that outside his world there is nothing. Since that's one of his final lines, "Past here all you will find is the End of the World, there's nothng past that point" or something to that effect. to sum it up in a nuthell Movie Akio is a much weaker form of Akio, he does not rule with absolute power, he doesn't rule at all, which allows ambitious student's such as Shiori to gain immense power. His only influence is... well he has no influence, he's still just a child who's attempting to maintain his guise of purity and selflessness.

Crap. You could take all this as the biggest irony of all -- Anthy seals away her brother to stop him from falling, and instead turns him into the biggest man-whore on campus. Damn. That's got to smart the next morning.

This series is so nihilistic, especially on rewatches, when you really start going "But...why do A, when B is just gonna kill you....?"

I've often thought Akio and Anthy are set up as the control for a statement on relationships, esp between siblings. I've never thought that Anthy and Dios would've had an incestual relationship, largly because of Dios' ideals and needs to uphold that purity. One wonders why they present two "possibly" (haha, yeah right possibly...) incestual relationships in the show. Is it just for the sake of having wierder things then a pink-mulleted main character striving to be a lesbian prince? Hell no! They needed to show how The Chairman and his 'Ho got to where they were. And really, why use two when you could use one? -the answer, stunningly obvious, is that one just can't do the trick -damn you Ikuhara, for your complex characters! Damn you!

What I mean, and you're probably already there past me, is that Touga and Nanami are a steller example of the very distant past, the Dios and Anthy. That purely brotherly-sisterly love, but maybe with some scary overtone. Touga tries to be a Prince for every girl on campus -albeit in the sleaziest way possible- while Nanami just wants her brother to notice her and be her Prince (although I have my own theories about that, mentioned in Nanami's section on the 7sins post). So, we have the picture right there next to us of how Anthy and Dios were, and now we have Anthy and Akio. Totally different, except not so much.

And then they use Miki and Kozue to bridge that gap. Miki and Kozue are so obviously a kind of...middle of the road for Anthy and Akio. Before he really was falling, I'm convinced that Akio was trying to be a Prince, trying to be who he was, before he realized that  his coffin was kinda comfy, and, hey, maybe if we just put a couple roses over there, a couch, and some nice windows....hey, this could be a real pad, y'know what I'm sayin' ... He was trying to live up to that Princely ideal, before he realized how stupid and utterly useless it was. And I can see him easily laying blame on Anthy for facillitating his fall even further. One wants to get down. One tries to be pure and righteous. Kozue and Miki? Sure, but Anthy and Young Akio, too.

Uhm...I know this was kinda off topic, but this thread made me think of it.

Maybe she sealed him away cause she had a giant roll of scotch tape and nothing better to do?

Clarice wrote:

Heh, I'm an Analysis Whore. I'll put out for anyone who wants some.

My offer of marriage is still open. Also...

*poof* So you have said, and so you are! *poof*

/genie

This brings to mind my "Displaced Gods" theory. 

As we all seem to agree, Anthy sealed Dios away out of both love and malice.

She loved him and he was killing himself; she surely didn't want this to happen.  Mythologically speaking, however, to die and descend into the underworld in some way was most likely Dios's destiny (also a la the Thanatos thing pointed out by Yasha, among others).  I think it's quite possible the events of their fall happened due a cusp in their life--puberty--approaching.

But Dios's Princely duties and death also made Anthy jealous and angry.  Because he was her brother, she was the only one who couldn't be a Princess--bound to wear on her, especially when she got to an age where finding a Prince took on more importance.  Also, why didn't he love *her* enough to take a break?  If he died, she'd be completely alone, but he felt saving other girls was far more important than that consideration.

Also, it seems to me that Anthy probably transferred that anger she felt toward her brother, the vague sense of betrayal, onto humanity.  Humanity doesn't deserve Dios, they are selfish, they don't care about the fact that Dios is killing himself for them.  Why shouldn't she seal him away?  He's too pure to see for himself the fact that humanity doesn't deserve his efforts.

I don't think one of these emotions outweighed the other.  It's just important to remember that Anthy's action wasn't taken out of pure love.  It's also important to remember that she didn't do it just cuz she's a mean old witch.

Were Dios and Anthy actually aging?  Would Dios have become Akio anyway?  I think that they were aging, but in a way that harkens more toward the original Sims (when your baby suddenly transforms into a child) than to real life.  There would have been a day when they would have officially stopped being children.  Some event, like a coming of age ceremony, would have marked that.  In Dios's case, I believe he would have died.  In the normal course of things, I think his death, even if figurative, wouldn't have resulted in his becoming Akio.  Anthy's interference must have created Akio, otherwise there would have been no point in what she did.  Which, although it COULD be the case, I don't think is true.