You've hit upon some of the main themes of the show.  Mainly the differences among childhood, adolescence, adulthood and the changes that happen to people as they go through the different stages.  It is also about the strength that one needs to become an adult.  You're not an adult just because you're old.

When you condense this theme into a its basics, you get the movie.

Voice of Athena wrote:

Where are the parents? adults!
The only stable *adult* character is Akio, and he's not quite the paragon of moral example. Not that I mind, but... I don't consider him an "adult." He's too caught up in the mind-fuck of a game he's created and has somehow suspended time. (Doesn't Tokiko even comment on how he hasn't aged? And doesn't her role in SKU-la-la-land cease after she joins the "adult world"? She's obviously aged when she comes before/for Akio. *cough*)

And don't forget the brief depictions of the parents of Miki/Kozue.  These "role models" are specific reasons why Miki just doesn't trust adults.  These sentiments are expressed by the student council in his second duel episode.  Are adults just selfish beings who are trying to control them for their own selfish reasons?  The fact is, these children are not being left unattended.  They are being manipulated.  They only duel becuase some adult tells them to through cryptic letters.  Who are the true adults in this world?

This all fits into what age group will make the most sense of this anime.  I think you won't get the entire meanings if you yourself haven't lived through the growth of adolescence. Sure, it's a fun story when you're 14, but you really get what it's saying later on.  I'm not sure though.  I first saw it when I was about 19 or so, therefore I was never "young" when I saw it.  I then watched it when I was 22 (i.e. now), and even that slight difference in age and experience gave me a different perspective.

Anyway, welcome to the boards (I don't know why I'm welcoming you. I'm pretty much new here myself).  Your deep-reading of this show means you'll fit right into this forum.  But why should I be surprised? You are the voice of a goddess after all.

Last edited by mazoboom (09-28-2007 02:45:52 AM)

As Tokiko said to Akio, "To bear fruit, flowers have to cast off their petals." Ohtori is dominated by flowers - roses of innocence, purity and infantile "blossoms". We must ask after Mamiya, do they like that - Student Council seem to be very satisfied. All school is frozen in time, even seasons avoid Ohtori - roses are blossoming all the time, and no one cares about time. Even duellists don't fight AT exact hour, but "after school".

Why? I think that Akio planned this perfectly - mature adult would not fight for "power of miracles" nor try to find a prince. Fairy tale which he made was supposed to melt childish and innocent heart, his games would not be successful for bitter man/woman. Shadow Girls asked: "Which of the following three things is eternal? 1. A diamond. 2. A beautiful memory. 3. Canned peaches." I think that this second option is a key - Akio made a base for gaining an eternity. He instiled them in Utena and in others to manipulate them; youth made it easier: adult could forget about them.

I'd also like to welcome you to the forums, Voice of Athena, and I think you should fit in here just fine.

Nocturnalux makes an excellent point about how common absent parents are in anime with no explanation needed, and the fact that the story takes place over a relatively short period of time at a boarding school provides an almost-plausible explanation. That being said, I think that the parents' absence helps to provide some explanation as to why the characters are the way they are. Touga, for example, strikes me as an almost-expected way for an intelligent, charismatic guy raised by wealthy but neglectful parents to turn out. He never wanted for anything material and doubtless got everything he asked for and so displays a sense of entitlement but desperately lacked affection and makes up for that by getting it from as many girls as can throw themselves at him. Nanami also displays that sense of entitlement but rather than having a long string of lovers to provide the affection that she needs, she turns to Touga for that because he provides it (albeit when it suits him) and was the only real constant as they were growing up.

I will probably come back to post more on this.

I tend to think that it was mostly just brought on by Ikuhara's vision being different from Saito's. I agree that it was not based on a time constraint due to the presence of what are essentially filler episodes (though I think they hold importance on other levels than just taking up space).

As far as Utena goes, in the anime at least, it's always looked to me as though she's done her best to remain free of as many outside influences as possible. Despite being well-known throughout the school for her rebellious attire, tomboyish attitude and athletic prowess, she has few close friends (really just Wakaba) and has kept herself isolated while being the center of attention. The lack of adults just emphasizes this isolation, because really the only way to remain "pure" and not "tainted" by the outside world as Utena is in so many ways is to cut yourself off from it.

I haven't read the manga in ages so I don't remember enough about it to comment on that side of it (I only own the movie manga).

brian wrote:

Voice of Athena wrote:

Is the world of Ohtori so removed and powerful it destroys or controls the rest of the world?...Is the world oblivious to whats going on inside the gates of Ohtori?

Personally I think that is one of the key questions. Arguably Ohtori simply is the world. Corrupt adults, neglected or misguided children, rat races, games, manipulation, cruelty, misunderstandings, shallowness, savage idealism, destructive fantasies. You know, another day in the Real World. But is the real world real? Is there a deeper and perhaps better reality beyond? Nanami (and perhaps other) realizes that the way to win the game is to not play it. Utena goes her one better and tries to stop the game.

A very good point, Ohotori being "the world". A way of looking at it is to see Ohtori is the "created world" perpetually caught in a motionless present that will replay the past even as it undercuts any possibility for a future to truly develop. Memory is tampered with and childhood is artificially prolonged. As dlaire stated youth is a wonderful resource for Akio to plunder and employ as he sees fit. As to what exists outside of Ohtori I would say the "yet uncreated world", a chance for bringing about something new and thus grasp the future, a world in which the fruits manage to emerge from the blossoms. Maybe reaching this place is the revolution.

As to whether students graduate from Ohotori, I think that the "normal" students do just that. They are not revelant to Akio's plan, they merely exist to give the illusion of a school. It is possible that even them do not leave Ohotori and simply have their memories reset/erased periodically.

ShatteredMirror wrote:

Nocturnalux makes an excellent point about how common absent parents are in anime with no explanation needed, and the fact that the story takes place over a relatively short period of time at a boarding school provides an almost-plausible explanation. That being said, I think that the parents' absence helps to provide some explanation as to why the characters are the way they are.

I think "it's a boarding school" is definitely the four-word answer to "where are the parents?"  At the same time, boarding schools in the real world are by and large known for their military efficiency, their strict codes of conduct, and their utter failure to deteriorate into shouts of "Kill the pig!  Cut its throat!  Spill its blood!" and "Grant me the power to bring the world revolution!"  Why is Ohtori different?

I'm not sure I'm adding anything by saying this, but I think the difference between Ohtori and Eton is not so much the absence of the parents, but the role and power of the adults that are present.  It's not that the adults aren't there, but... well, the faculty is terrified of the Student Council, for heaven's sake.   The only adult with real power is fucking his sister and making people stick swords in each other.

It would be easy to jump from there to saying that the message of Utena (or at least a message) is that kids are malleable and need proper moral guidance and discipline.  But honestly, I know adults who remind me of Touga and Utena and Saionji and the rest.  In fact, half the reason some of what goes on at Ohtori is so disturbing is because it's kids acting in very "adult" ways.  (I'm using "adult" here to mean "NC-17" and perhaps "demonstrating an adultlike ability to hurt and manipulate," not "mature.")  It's not that kids need moral guidance.  It's that people of any age who are stuck in emotional ruts are prone to wind up being douches to each other.  If that's true, then the competent adult moral authorities aren't there because A) they'd stop their kids from fighting and there'd be no story, and B) their absence is useful for establishing why some of the kids are stuck in emotional ruts in the first place -- not because Ikuhara wants to feed us a message about the importance of good parenting.

Voice of Athena wrote:

Is Utena so 'revolutionary', or was her role planned all along?

Probably a mixture of both. Utena was lauded by the other girls in the manga as a role model and they reacted with distaste when she "acted like a girl." They almost needed her to be a tomboy.

Who can say if she was "pre-destined?" The manga almost implies that she is a supernatural being or angel in her own right. Even her name indicates that she might be an angel of some sort. Or she is a mortal who achieves angel-hood or Dios-hood because the role of Prince Dios cannot remain vacant forever. Akio calls her a "miracle." On the other hand he manipulates events, even creates Ohtori, to forge her into a suitable consort. She is "pre-destined" for a grand role but the question is, which role?

No other adults are actively trying to guide Utena in a constructive way. One could argue she is the one person who had a truly inspirng role model.

Satyreys, are you referring to Lord of the Flies? I never read that book.

It's an awful experience for a child to realize that it is more mature than its parents. Role models of true adulthood are increasingly uncommon. In our popular culture even mainstream politicians sometimes strut around like juvenile delinquents and nobody much criticizes them for it. Much of what is called adulthood is simply license and self-indulgence and consumption. In many ways the kids of Ohtori are not always necessarily kids but just people.

As of lately, I'm starting to wonder more about the effects that the adults in each character's lives have on them. Though Kanae, Miki, Kozue, Anthy, and anyone else that has any sort of connection to an adult that we know of is easy to place, what about everyone else?

I recently learned that 80% of our self-esteem is formed between the ages of 1-3, and that our parents are the number one cause that determines our self-esteem, which makes me wonder about Shiori's home life. (I need to stop bringing up Shiori.) e_e Anyway, though Juri inevitably plays a huge roll with Shiori's lack of self-esteem, it does kind of make you wonder what her parents are like. They might have acted as though they liked Juri more than her, or maybe they were just fucktards without dragging Juri into this somehow.

Things that when she was really little is questionable, since for all we know her parents are horrible people, or they could be really nice. But the stuff about most of our self esteem being formed by our parents and at a young age makes me think that her home life could be leaning more towards the horrible side of the chart.

*Coughs* And all that stuff could hold true for the other characters, such as the other Black Rose Duelists. We always focus on their life at Ohtori, but we can hardly act as though they have no life outside of Ohtori.

Perhaps I am mis-remembering but I thought they were pretty close. I thought that the reaction of the girls was not so much approval as just enjoying a sensational event to gossip about. Wakaba was the only one who cared enough to do anything.

One does wonder what kind of childhood Nanami had. That fan-fic Fugue was an interesting take.

Last edited by brian (09-29-2007 09:30:40 PM)

Razara wrote:

As of lately, I'm starting to wonder more about the effects that the adults in each character's lives have on them. Though Kanae, Miki, Kozue, Anthy, and anyone else that has any sort of connection to an adult that we know of is easy to place, what about everyone else?

I recently learned that 80% of our self-esteem is formed between the ages of 1-3, and that our parents are the number one cause that determines our self-esteem, which makes me wonder about Shiori's home life.

I'm really wondering what you have to do to a child's head to fuck them up so miserably. How do I go about getting my own set of incestuous twins? Really now, there should be an instruction guide. How else am I suppose to re-create this.

ShatterdMirror wrote:

It's interesting how this was just the opposite in the anime, how they were all thrilled when she "acted like a girl" and when she wore the girls' uniform Wakaba was the only one who responded badly and then it wasn't so much because she was acting "like a girl" but because this wasn't, in her eyes at least, normal for Utena.

Any thoughts on why the difference?

I always took Utena wearing the girl's uniform as her loosing an outside source of her confidence then regaining an inward source/newer, purer source. She had to be pushed to recollect herself if she was going to continue dueling and regain her 'self'.
The change in public oppinion might just be there to give her some friction and help her justify what she's doing. Though she seems to ignore them, Wakaba, a true friend, is the only one able to understand Utena's grief (even if she doesn't really know what's going on) and take it as a sign to intervene (though it is Wakaba, and she butts in no matter what, the dumb twat. I still haven't forgiven her for inviting herself into the sexmobile so sorry if I'm a little harsh.) Utena can see by her peers reaction that if she conforms her life might be easier and she might even be more popular. But, what is right isn't always easy. She finds she can give up neither the boys uniform or the dueling, so she bucks up and takes back herself. How touching, really.
The manga she sees pressure from all sides to regain herself/ stop acting like a dumb shit. Whether or not the girls gossiping effects her, it works and she goes back to herself.
Either way the school gossip mill reacts doesn't matter, because she finds herself in the end. This is a good show of Utena's strength and how removed from the students outside the dueling bubble she's become. This is also one of Wakaba's ONLY useful purposes....*mutter mutter stabs Wakaba vododoll * I mean if she actually did something.

[random thought] Perhaps one could argue that the search for a prince is the search for a proper father figure? [/random thought]

The world is Akio's harem.

Even though he has a great deal of influence over Ohtori, I don't think Akio has deliberately been depriving students of adult relationships. (Aside from, possibly, Utena.) It seems that parents in the series are just naturally neglectful, from what we can see of Touga, Nanami, Saionji, Miki and Kozue's non-interaction with them. Then there's Mrs. Ohtori; who discards her ill husband to have an affair with her daughter's fiance, a union she no doubt had a hand in arranging.

Voice of Athena wrote:

(though it is Wakaba, and she butts in no matter what, the dumb twat. I still haven't forgiven her for inviting herself into the sexmobile so sorry if I'm a little harsh.)

You wouldn't do the same thing in her position?