The similarities (or stock footage) from Juri's first duel to her second always bothered me. Mainly because the first time she does so much better. If Ruka and Akio have really honed her abilities, she should have utterly dominated Utena, and been able to stop the power of Dios (move that wins battle!) a second time. I can think of a couple explanations for why she might have chosen not to, but this is straying from the topic.

Dani wrote:

Oh yeah, she totally deserves it in that episode. And in the next episode she's not very convincing when she asks him to believe that she loves him "more than......anyone else." Uh, huh. Insert Juri's name there.

I think Shiori's done a really good job of convincing herself that it's true. Ruka obviously never cares about Shiori, but she seems to have genuine attachment to him. This is easily a transferrance of her valued friendship with Juri, in a situation where it could be a romantic relationship. From Shiori's perception, her feelings for Ruka are genuine.

Ragnarok wrote:

Dani wrote:

Oh yeah, she totally deserves it in that episode. And in the next episode she's not very convincing when she asks him to believe that she loves him "more than......anyone else." Uh, huh. Insert Juri's name there.

I think Shiori's done a really good job of convincing herself that it's true. Ruka obviously never cares about Shiori, but she seems to have genuine attachment to him. This is easily a transferrance of her valued friendship with Juri, in a situation where it could be a romantic relationship. From Shiori's perception, her feelings for Ruka are genuine.

I agree that she starts growing a genuine attachment to him after they go out for whatever period of time they dated for, (Utena is notoriously vague about duration), so when he threw her lie in her face and dumped her, it was truly a heart-wrenching moment for her. The emotion on her side was real enough for her to run across a crowded schoolyard to scream for him not to leave her- this is a girl who I expect doesn't like making a spectacle of herself at all. Her friends say in 'Whispering in the Dark' that's she's usually quiet and shy, but she's very outspoken and public about her feelings in that scene. No, I don't believe she deserved what he did to her there. I don't believe she deserved to be led on long enough to love him, and then to be crushed underfoot. I would agree that she'd deserve him calling her out the minute she lied to him about the sword, and that what Ruka did to her was beneficial to her because it 'broke' some of her misconceived notions, but I don't believe that what happened to her was completely justified.

I don't think even Ruka took too much enjoyment in it, either. When he plays her tape recorded messages from his answering machine, Juri asks him: 'do you really enjoy hurting her that much?', and he is completely silent. Partially, I think this is because Juri misinterpreted his reason for playing that, (I think he did it to show her that Juri is not first in Shiori's mind, that she's not what Juri believes she is,) but I also think that he has some guilt over his actions both toward Juri and Shiori. Not to say that he couldn't have believed that she deserved some heartache after what happened with her, Juri, and that Random Fencing Male, but he doesn't strike me as al petty enough to fully enjoy everything he did. It's hard to truly get a grasp on his character, because we see so little of him and what he outwardly shows us in those two episodes is a facade put on for a desperate scheme, with a few moments here and there of his truer feelings.

As for Shiori's ability to draw his sword: like it's been stated before, they're both closely attached to Juri. It could also be that Ruka wanted her to be able to pull his sword, and his will and acceptance of her doing so could have allowed her to do it. Much like someone opening a door to let a stranger in.

Edit: Poorly worded something.

Last edited by Ivy-chan (10-24-2006 12:13:55 PM)

Ragnarok wrote:

As a bit of a side-note, while the case may be different here, the Engaged can withdraw the sword of Dios without any emotional attachment between themselves and Anthy.

Personally I think that's a matter of it being "fine" with Anthy that the sword be pulled -- the bearer of the sword only has to be willing to let the wielder draw it. Anthy lets them take it; that's why they can have it. It therefore illustrates that there is either some degree of trust between bride and challenger/prince at the sword-pulling stage (something you could probably imply from, say, Saionji and Touga) or that the prince/challenger is using their bride as a means to an end, i.e. Juri/Ruka, Ruka/Shiori, Nanami/Touga. Thing is with Anthy, she's likely as not using the prince herself. Oh, I love Anthy.

[would reply to more but right now brain is explodey all over the carpet boo]

That concept makes me get a nostalgia trip of Wakaba's Black Rose Duel, and what she said in Mikage's elevator. 'Just a little bit longer, and I would have been reborn.' I think of Shiori using Ruka as an emotional support beam, someone to make her feel special and to keep as a means of strengthening and elevating herself, so she can become a new person. Her motivation throughout the series seems to revolve around Juri, and how she wants to be on an equal footing with her, to be seen as equally strong and captivating. Before, she tried to knock Juri down, which didn't work, made her feel worse than before, and lost her two friends. Her next attempt, her relationship with Ruka, would be more along the lines of building herself up. She went about by deceiving Ruka into a relationship, most likely because of her gaping lack of self-esteem. Building self confidence alone by usual methods might not even be a conceivable option for her, it would never enter her mind. So, not only did he break her heart, he toppled her foundations.

Ah, well finding it situationally and ironically amusing is one thing.

Razara wrote:

We know all too well that Ruka's intentions were to turn Juri away from her feelings for Shiori, yet it seems as though he does the same thing to Shiori. In the sword scene, keeping in mind that it was really Juri's sword, Shiori averts her gaze from Ruka, and only glances at the sword until he says that he thought she was polishing his sword. Once he finally gets her to look at him, he places his hand on her cheek, keeping her from looking away from him. However, she looks away from him anyway, and at the sword, so he directs her gaze back at him and kisses her.

This behavior of looking away from Ruka continues throughout the episode. Until the car scene, she never looks directly at him. Her eyes are either closed, or she's looking elsewhere. And when she's with him by the fountain, she looks away from him with a regretful look in Juri's direction, (she can't really see her, it's symbolic.) Once she spends the night with Ruka, she is able to look away from Juri and only at him, as we see in the car ride. This makes me think of a quote in the story Seraphita.

Up into this point I thought Shiori just thought she was in love with Ruka and the real reason was that she wanted to hurt Juri again, but this is a very valid point. I'll have to pay attention to that when I watch that episode again. As for Shiori "deserving" it, it varied for me. When she lost her duel and Ruka caught her up in the lie about it not being his sword she polished, I felt satisfied, but when he turned her down in public when she was crying, I felt really bad for her. Shiori isn't a favourite of mine, but I don't hate her either.

The scene where Shiori picked up the sword and Ruka ran into her always interested me. Did anyone else think the sword looked like Juri's sword? I think the sword being Juri's sword represented who Shiori's feelings were focused on, but when Ruka went on about her polishing his sword, she went along with it and tried to change her feelings. But of course, all along it was Juri's sword. (Correct me if I'm wrong? Gack, a re-watch is in order!)

Razara wrote:

Basically, Shiori saw Ruka as her prince, and he broke her heart. She acted so dramatically when he left her because now she had lost both Juri and him, and so she was left with nothing.

Now I'm reminded of the time that Shiori picked a white rose and gave it to Ruka..

Razara wrote:

Ruka Related Fun-Fact: "You're an adult now. Everything in the world can be ours." In the eyes of Ikuhara, the adult world is not a pure one. Ruka is implying that Shiori has only just become an adult. In other words, the only person she's slept with is him. And since she was in love with/seduced by the only person she's slept with, it doesn't make much sense to call her a slut.

o_O I always thought people referred to Akio and Kozue as the sluts and Shiori as a bitch. Shiori definitely hasn't flocked from too many guys. Just those two guys associated to Juri.

Ivy-chan wrote:

No, Shiori is evil, a slut, a whore, the antichrist, and oddly, a goat. Also, she is ugly. (Even though she has the same basic facial and body design of any other female character OMG.)

XD; I'm new to the fandom so I'm kind of slow to the uptake. I had my annoyances with Shiori at first, but now I mostly just feel really bad for her. But wow. Thankfully I haven't witnessed too much Shiori-bashing. Or character-bashing in SKU in general. (I did see some "emotionless robot" comment about Anthy once. And a few people go "OMG I HATE SHIORI!" etc. etc. but nothing too bad yet. Thankfully.)  On another note, I've always thought Shiori was one of the prettiest girls in the series. I love her wine red/purple hair.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, those girls have default boobs.

Last edited by SleepDebtFairy (10-24-2006 11:13:02 PM)

Ivy-chan wrote:

No, Shiori is evil, a slut, a whore, the antichrist, and oddly, a goat. Also, she is ugly. (Even though she has the same basic facial and body design of any other female character OMG.)

Don't forget about her secret plans to steal Christmas.

I'm willing to bet that not nearly as many people would hate Shiori if she was as attractive as Akio, Touga, and all the other long-haired bishounen. If she was, then all would be forgiven, and she would be worshiped by many. Stealing a boy from Juri? None of that would matter, just as long as she has a pretty face.

As for her being a slut, I still don't see any logic in that concept, yet I've seen her portray her as someone who will sleep with anything that moves. e_e How on Earth do people arrive at that conclusion?

Razara wrote:

As for her being a slut, I still don't see any logic in that concept, yet I've seen her portray her as someone who will sleep with anything that moves. e_e How on Earth do people arrive at that conclusion?

I'll admit it-- I dislike Shiori. My reasons are because I saw her in high school every other day and she was a goddamn whiny bitch. The character just reminds me of those stupid starry-eyed overserious insanely shallow 'relationship' hounds that used to gather in little clusters in the hallway whining about their love for someone else and how pathetic they felt because they lost them. This is, granted, not a hatred for Shiori as a character, but what I see as her real-life analogues. The reason I can see Shiori sleeping around is because they usually did, not because of anything she does in the show. In the show, she's like... the larval version of one of these, the chestburster that's going to grow up to be Queen-- not there yet, but has some serious potential to inflict grief on everyone around her.

I would like to note here that this is not analysis of Shiori, but rather analysis of why I can see her sleeping around. If I ever write analysis of Shiori, keep this in mind and see if you can catch me being biased, I'd like to root it out.

Oh yes. If I was trying to analyse her, I'd be keeping my own opinion out of it as much as possible. As a character in the show, I don't find her likeable, but I wonder how much of that is me imprinting my gut reaction to others on her?

At any rate, I think most people are pretty much the same as I am that way. Knowing someone who acted similarly in real life, possibly despising them for it, and transferring it to Shiori because of the reminder. It's really pretty unfair to Shiori.

Ever since I became a Shiori fan, I find it next to impossible to make snap judgements about characters. If my first thought when I see a character is, "She seems like a bitch," my next will probably be, "Wait, let's look at this from her point of view..." I suppose that I'm subconciously afraid of misjudging a character again.

While people in real life can affect your judgement on anime characters, characters from other animes can affect your judgement as well. Say a character that you dislike has a similar appearance, personality, or background as a character from another anime, then you might assume that the traits you dislike in that character could turn up in the other character. There's a long list of outside influences that can affect your judgement of someone. The same can be said in real life as well. How often is it that we look at someone and think that we have them completely figured out at first glance? Stereotypes and such play a big role in this.

It seems to me that peoples views on Shiori tend to be coloured by how they feel about Juri and her secret interest in her. 

If you could ignore what and how you feel about Juri long enough to properly analyse Shiori's character, you might get a clearer picture.