I have my own theory. I think he was never selfless, but Juri taught him better.







When they were at Akio's car, Juri said that even if she got the power of miracles, she wouldnt use it to make Shiori fall for her but for her own well being (liberating her from Ruka). Somehow, I think if Ruka ever stopped being a selfish prick, it was here. He stopped carng for her own agenda and just wanted to help Juri to gain the power of miracles for whatever she wanted, and not for what he thought she needed.

sure, here we could argue about the definition of what "selfish" truly means, everything can be reduced to selfish reasons. But there are some lines, for instance, when Juri goes to visit Shiori and Shiori asks her to leave her alone, she does. When Shiori wants Ruka back, she wants that. She wishes for whatever Shiori wants to be happy, and if that doesn't mean having a gay relationship with her, then she wouldn't force it (as Ruka did).

I am a huge Ruka fan, to be honest, despite being a big fan of this trio, he's still my favorite, but because of the "evolution" I choose to see in him. Juri and Shiori, in my opinion, stay more static despite being in the whole series, while Ruka, in only two episodes, has an entire turn around of his priorities, from manipulating and assaulting girls to simply learning to wish for somebody else's happiness (even if it means without you).

ShiningSanctum1 wrote:

I notice that many people state that Ruka was selfless for helping Juri, but I do not believe he would have done something good like that just for anybody. He did it because he wanted to be acknowledged by Juri.

We had a good conversation about this over in the What Pisses You Off The Most In SKU? thread.  You could check it out!

So he was selfish in a way since he did things for Juri due to his love for her. He is not that much of a saint, considering how he will go as far as to hurt people he dislikes. If he were truly selfless, he would not have interfered with Juri's feelings to begin with. If he already saw that she could never let Shiori go, why did he even try.

I've got a few thoughts about this!  Starting at the end: is it really true that Juri could never let Shiori go?  It seems to me that by the end of the mini-arc, Juri's obsession with Shiori has mellowed a little.  That's what the shattered locket is about; Juri's idealized image of Shiori, which sprung from the sepia-toned past captured in that picture, has been challenged, and has begun to be replaced by something more real.  Ruka didn't do that -- Juri did it herself -- but she did it by following his lead, and it wouldn't have happened without him.  One of the many infuriating things about Ruka is that his condescending plan to "save Juri" works.

Continuing back: is "true selflessness" really something to aspire to?  Who in SKU thinks they are being truly selfless?  Probably Ruka; also Dios; also Utena in the first arc; also Touga in the last arc.  (These are the people I called "princes" in my post in the conversation I linked to above.)  But they're all wrong, right?  They all have motives involving themselves, even if they don't acknowledge them.  The apotheosis of kindness in SKU is Utena in the last episode, but by then Utena knows that she's not acting out of pure princely selflessness; she's acting out of love.  If true selflessness really means never meddling in others' feelings, even when they are hiding crying inside a coffin, then I'm not sure true selflessness is something to aspire to!  Part of being a friend, surely, is to reach a hand out to them, for them to take or not as they choose.  But to do that, you have to open their coffin first, and that's meddling.  There is a little presumptuousness in it.  There is a little presumptuousness in friendship.  And, I think, a little selfishness too, because the sentence "I want you to be happy" still contains the words "I want."  Ruka knows that his actions will be deeply disagreeable to Juri, that she might even hate him for what he'll do, but he does it anyway.  He is definitely making some kind of sacrifice because he wants Juri to be free from Shiori.  I don't think his actions are selfless, but they don't need to be selfless to be good.  On the other hand, his willingness to sacrifice himself doesn't make his actions good, either.

I'm not exactly disagreeing with you.  I think there's a lot to dislike about Ruka -- the way he treats Shiori is contemptible -- but how he treats Juri is complicated, to me.

malna wrote:

Obviously I am biased; I love Ruka, just like I love Utena in the last episodes (I see them as parallelistic characters). I like Touga for the last arc. Perhaps the show was unable to wake me up from a dream of princes after all, hard as it may have tried.

I like Touga for the last arc too, but it's not because he's trying to be selfless -- but because he's trying to be selfless, if that makes sense.  He's trying to be a better person than he is, as best as his stunted empathy lets him understand what that means.  I like characters who try to be better people than they are.  I think that's why my reaction to Ruka is mixed: I believe his intentions are good, but his treatment of Shiori and even of Juri during his scheme betrays the mindset that the ends justify the means.  As far as we see, he doesn't try to help Juri without insulting and assaulting her and deflowering her crush while breaking her heart.  There's no sense that he's trying to be better; there's more of a sense that his intentions are good and that's good enough for him.

Do you think Ruka didn't know that he was acting out of love?

That's fair.  He does know that.  The difference is that Ruka doesn't hope for Juri's love -- certainly not by the end of his arc, if he ever did -- which is why his actions have the flavor of selflessness to them, and I suspect that's also why he doesn't bother interrogating his means to his ends too closely.  "I'm doing this for her, so as long as I succeed I have nothing to apologize for."

malna wrote:

satyreyes wrote:

One of the many infuriating things about Ruka is that his condescending plan to "save Juri" works.

Condescending... do you really see the way he treats Juri as such? Does help become condescending when a person in need of help refuses to acknowledge it?

The answer to the first question is a flat yes:

Ruka:  Are you serious?
Juri:  Of course.
Ruka:  What a surprise. Just a little bit ago you were telling me to keep my hands off,...
Ruka:  ...and now you're telling me to make up with her.
Juri:  If that's what makes her happy.
Ruka:  Sorry, but I can't grant your request.
Juri:  Ruka!
Ruka:  Your friendship for her impresses me.
Ruka:  But she's selfish, pushy, and self-centered, and a liar on top of that.
Ruka:  Sorry, but who the hell would want someone like that?
Juri:  You bastard, who the hell do you think you are?!
Ruka:  Don't try to dictate what I do.
Juri:  Who gave you the right to torment her?
Ruka:  It's none of your business.
Juri:  What kind of mean-spirited asshole have you become?
Ruka:  And what makes you think you can tell others what to do?
Ruka:  But how about this instead?
Ruka:  I was thinking about going out with you next.
Juri:  Who the fuck would go out with you?!
Ruka:  Don't you actually love me, the Captain of the Fencing Club?
Juri:  You bastard! You've insulted me enough!
Ruka:  Don't hold back now.

Every one of his lines in this exchange reeks of condescension.  No matter how much you like Ruka, even if you think he's acting this way in order to provoke Juri into some kind of epiphany, there's no way to cast his words to her as anything other than disrespectful.

But your second question -- now, that's the million-dollar question, isn't it?  I just wrote in my last post that helping someone who won't ask for help is presumptuous, but that that doesn't make it wrong.  Does that change if the other person is calling you a "bastard" and a "mean-spirited asshole" to your face?  At what point do you take no for an answer?... And in a series whose culminating moment is one where one girl keeps trying to help a girl who literally just stabbed her in the back, which is a pretty strong no, it's not obvious where that line should be drawn.  I can't answer your question.  But I didn't say that all help given to someone who won't acknowledge it is condescending; I said that Ruka's plan specifically is condescending, and I think the nature of that plan backs me up.

satyreyes wrote:

ShiningSanctum1 wrote:

I notice that many people state that Ruka was selfless for helping Juri, but I do not believe he would have done something good like that just for anybody. He did it because he wanted to be acknowledged by Juri.

We had a good conversation about this over in the What Pisses You Off The Most In SKU? thread.  You could check it out!

So he was selfish in a way since he did things for Juri due to his love for her. He is not that much of a saint, considering how he will go as far as to hurt people he dislikes. If he were truly selfless, he would not have interfered with Juri's feelings to begin with. If he already saw that she could never let Shiori go, why did he even try.

I've got a few thoughts about this!  Starting at the end: is it really true that Juri could never let Shiori go?  It seems to me that by the end of the mini-arc, Juri's obsession with Shiori has mellowed a little.  That's what the shattered locket is about; Juri's idealized image of Shiori, which sprung from the sepia-toned past captured in that picture, has been challenged, and has begun to be replaced by something more real.  Ruka didn't do that -- Juri did it herself -- but she did it by following his lead, and it wouldn't have happened without him.  One of the many infuriating things about Ruka is that his condescending plan to "save Juri" works.

Continuing back: is "true selflessness" really something to aspire to?  Who in SKU thinks they are being truly selfless?  Probably Ruka; also Dios; also Utena in the first arc; also Touga in the last arc.  (These are the people I called "princes" in my post in the conversation I linked to above.)  But they're all wrong, right?  They all have motives involving themselves, even if they don't acknowledge them.  The apotheosis of kindness in SKU is Utena in the last episode, but by then Utena knows that she's not acting out of pure princely selflessness; she's acting out of love.  If true selflessness really means never meddling in others' feelings, even when they are hiding crying inside a coffin, then I'm not sure true selflessness is something to aspire to!  Part of being a friend, surely, is to reach a hand out to them, for them to take or not as they choose.  But to do that, you have to open their coffin first, and that's meddling.  There is a little presumptuousness in it.  There is a little presumptuousness in friendship.  And, I think, a little selfishness too, because the sentence "I want you to be happy" still contains the words "I want."  Ruka knows that his actions will be deeply disagreeable to Juri, that she might even hate him for what he'll do, but he does it anyway.  He is definitely making some kind of sacrifice because he wants Juri to be free from Shiori.  I don't think his actions are selfless, but they don't need to be selfless to be good.  On the other hand, his willingness to sacrifice himself doesn't make his actions good, either.

I'm not exactly disagreeing with you.  I think there's a lot to dislike about Ruka -- the way he treats Shiori is contemptible -- but how he treats Juri is complicated, to me.

I don't recall saying that there was a selfless person lol, I just said that I personally don't believe that Ruka was selfless from my own perspective since there are so many who say he is. We can't know for sure if he was selfless in some way, because the only one he really cares about from what we've seen so far is Juri, and his love for her was the sole reason he ever cared to help her out. But he also never considered Juri's feelings, he thought he could help her in whatever way he could use but only realized he'd never thought of her feelings by ep 29 (and ended up hurting feelings along the way). I also believe Shiori didn't really deserve all that, all she needed was a talk from Juri but Juri's the one who refused to talk to her and that led Shiori into turning to worse methods to attain Juri's attention. Anyway, about Juri and Shiori-Yes Juri and Shiori did manage to resolve their issue at the end of ep 29, but in the episode where everyone plays badminton together, Juri admits to Utena that she somehow can't let some of her feelings go (even though they have mellowed out a bit like you say). So not all of her feelings are gone yet. In fact, every council member are not completely cured of their problems. Miki's still gonna worry about Kozue, Juri's not entirely over Shiori, Saionji's still the same old dunderhead, Touga's still confused and full of himself, etc etc. This series is a textbook adolescence tragedy. It's saying that you must grow up and face reality, as well as find the right way to find yourself in a world without miracles. This show shows all the RIGHT and WRONG ways of growing up.

Last edited by ShiningSanctum1 (04-28-2016 02:27:42 AM)

satyreyes wrote:

I like Touga for the last arc too, but it's not because he's trying to be selfless -- but because he's trying to be selfless, if that makes sense.

It does. More than that, I'd go as far as to say that he is trying it on, like a new suit. He is at crossroads, it will be awhile before he commits to anything the way he did before to following Akio's footsteps. I very much appreciate that he is cautious and thoughtful about it. At the same time, though, I think this is the difference between Touga and Ruka. Ruka knows where he stands and what he stands for. He is committed.

satyreyes wrote:

I like characters who try to be better people than they are.

Ah, so - as above - I don't believe Ruka falls into that category. Personally, I do not need that in my favorite characters.

satyreyes wrote:

his treatment of Shiori and even of Juri during his scheme betrays the mindset that the ends justify the means

It does. I guess there are instances when I condone to it.

satyreyes wrote:

Ruka doesn't hope for Juri's love -- certainly not by the end of his arc, if he ever did -- which is why his actions have the flavor of selflessness to them

In a nutshell, yes, that's how I see it.

satyreyes wrote:

Every one of his lines in this exchange reeks of condescension.

No. Again, I suppose this is a very subjective matter.

satyreyes wrote:

No matter how much you like Ruka, even if you think he's acting this way in order to provoke Juri into some kind of epiphany, there's no way to cast his words to her as anything other than disrespectful.

Some of the words he speaks then are genuine and should be thought-provoking, others obviously are not but every single one of them is aimed to enrage. If I remember correctly, he needs Juri to challenge him to a duel at that point so he consistently fans her hatred for him. Which is neat in that romantic-tragedy poetics.
Perhaps Ruka's actions and words to Juri seem disrespectful at face value but are they, really? He even plain says he does respect Juri's feelings for Shiori, which, ironically enough, I believe in a way he truly does. And the last bit about switching to Juri and her loving him is actually - beside the point of it - a very bitter joke on his own feelings, isn't it?
So to me, whereas his words and actions are entirely manipulative and without context may seem disrespectful, given where they come from they are anything but. I do believe Ruka holds Juri in high regard.

Oh, and

Juri:  What kind of mean-spirited asshole have you become?

Too bad it didn't really give her a pause. It's as if she were almost onto something.

To be fair, whenever I daydream of someone like Ruka in my life, I immediately remind myself that he'd be more likely to treat me like he did Shiori rather than Juri - since when at my worst I may act a bit like Shiori. And even if for whatever the reason he treated me like he did Juri, it would still mean tones of bitter pills. So yeah, he works better as a far-away fantasy, I guess. Far, far away.
My mom's reaction to Ruka episodes was interesting. She was infuriated. "What kind of ridiculous lie is this?! How naive a woman can buy this? Obviously, there are no men like that."

Last edited by malna (04-29-2016 04:30:52 PM)

Regardless of his motives, his methods were repugnant and colossally arrogant. He is an excellent example of the destructive potential of presumptuous and self-righteous "good intentions", and the best that can be said is that his ultimate fate was deserved.