Ah!  I think I mentioned I got the bit about the cat-family in a thread here.  I don't think I read Clarice's essay, but I did a search once I had a name and the subject came up in this thread.

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (04-04-2007 04:31:09 PM)

Poof? O.o I'm confused.

I forgot to say in my blabbings.  When I was re-watching the series recently, I started to wonder: Maybe Mikage didn't reject Tatsuya as a duellist for the reason he said.  If Tatsuya had been manipulated a little, the way certain someones like to do in Ohotri.  Or if Tatsuya had been pushed "deeper"--couldn't he have been driven to the same extremes as the other Black Rose duellists?

Maybe Tatsuya reminded Mikage of himself a little.

ACK!  o_O I didn't notice.  I have a title!!  Thank you! 

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (04-04-2007 06:06:01 PM)

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

And, damn you people and your nifty titles.

It takes time to earn a title. You have to show something that makes you title-worthy, or so I hear. Sometimes people get titles fast. Sometimes they have to post a bazillion times to show their dominant ability or trait or whatever.

I imagine I'll be one of the most (of not THE most) presumptuous people sooner or later. Oh yes, baby...my true colours will eventually show...

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Poof? O.o I'm confused.

I forgot to say in my blabbings.  When I was re-watching the series recently, I started to wonder: Maybe Mikage didn't reject Tatsuya as a duellist for the reason he said.  If Tatsuya had been manipulated a little, the way certain someones like to do in Ohotri.  Or if Tatsuya had been pushed "deeper"--couldn't he have been driven to the same extremes as the other Black Rose duellists?

Maybe Tatsuya reminded Mikage of himself a little.

You know, I was thinking the same thing when I was watching the Tatsuya episode. Mikage said he wasn't fit to be a black rose duelist, but I think nearly anyone could be pushed to those extremes.. even Tatsuya would have some selfishness. So it seemed a little strange.
<snip>
But, as for series-wise reasons why Tatsuya wasn't accepted as a black rose duelist.. I think Mikage was probably covering up for something, too. Hm. Maybe he just thought Tatsuya's "dark self" wasn't strong and bitter enough, or that Wakaba would make a better black rose duelist?

Having the qualifications of a (Black Rose) duelist isn't _quite_ about bitterness or selfishness.  Seminar members have those things, but that's a by-product of what really makes them qualified.

Tatsuya is bitter and selfish.  He wants Wakaba for himself, is insanely jealous of this unknown "prince" of hers, and positively radiates angst.  In fact, he's one of the most violently emotional of Mikage's interviewees.  What disqualifies him is simple: he thinks of Wakaba as a human being.  Black Rose duelists have to make someone an idol or a trophy.  You can hate an ideal for being unattainable, but you can't hate a human being for the same; all you can do is hate the situation that separates you from them.  Tatsuya respects Wakaba and he acknowledges her right to make her own decisions.  He hates the choice she made, but he knows the choice was hers to make; his anger is not directed at her, but at his loss of her.  (In fact, he's the only Mikage interviewee not to hurl insults at his beloved.)  In this way -- in this acknowledgement of the other's humanity -- Tatsuya elevates himself above his fellow elevator riders, and indeed above pretty much everyone else in the show.  Whatever his faults, he's fundamentally respectful and caring, and one day he will make an excellent, excellent boyfriend.

Tatsuya is not qualified to be a Black Rose duelist, but the other question -- does Tatsuya remind Mikage of himself? -- remains very interesting!  Mikage does sound almost sympathetic when he lets Tatsuya go.  I don't think Mikage's much like Tatsuya.  He looks at Tokiko somewhat like Tsuwabuki looks at Nanami: she represents a certain brand of maturity (though different from the brand Nanami represents), and he aspires to be worthy of her.  Tatsuya might, however, remind Mikage of how he'd like to be.  Nemuro's biggest failing was his computerlike mind.  Tokiko told him that she wasn't sure a computerlike genius could ever find romance; implicitly, she was questioning whether Nemuro could view someone as a human, as opposed to a walking, talking set of algorithms.  Then the ability to view someone as a human is part of what might make Mikage worthy of Tokiko, and Mikage ought to view Tatsuya with sympathy and a little bit of awe.

Good points!  Let me think about them...

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Do you really think Shiori doesn't view Juri as human?

Yes.  Shiori views Juri as an idol, which is why she resents her so much and is so intoxicated by her power to hurt her.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Is it entirely accurate to say that Tatsuya doesn't objectify Wakaba at all, and respects her ability to make her own choices even if he doesn't like them?  I was a bit offended by his psuedo-sensitive ravings.  It's as if he's saying she's too dumb to know if a guy is only after her for sex.  And taking for granted that Wakaba will sleep with this mysterious Prince.  And furthermore supporting centuries of objectification and double-standards by saying that Wakaba will be "tainted" afterwards. ...
"Wakaba, you are in the wrong.  But I'm going to wait for you, and I'm going to accept you even after you are tainted, because I'm a good person."  If Tatsuya were a really good person, he wouldn't think Wakaba would be diminished!  He thinks that because he's nice, Wakaba will have to appreciate him.

You can think a person is shortsighted, naive, and wrong without thinking they're not a person.  In fact, thinking someone is making the wrong decision implicitly affirms their agency.  I also interpret the "tainted" slur differently; he's talking about loss of innocence, not of virginity.  If Wakaba's boyfriend is (as Tatsuya self-righteously assumes) abusive and mean, Wakaba would be hard-pressed to escape the relationship with the same innocence Tatsuya associates with her.  There's no objectification there, just an acknowledgement that she is bound to be scarred by the abusive relationship he imagines.

He is martyring himself, though; you're right about that.  I'm not sure that bears on whether he thinks of her as a person, but it certainly bears on how much growing up he has to do.  Certainly it gives us some insight into his self-image; like late-series Touga, he wants to be a prince but doesn't quite understand what a prince is yet.

The quote I like best from Tatsuya's elevator ride is one that doesn't get enough play.  It's the very last thing he says: "Why can't it have been me?"  Not "Damn that slut!" or even "Damn that slut's pimp!", but "Why can't it have been me?" He hates the decision; he hates the outcome; but he doesn't hate Wakaba.  That's all.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

I don't think Nemuro looked *up* to Tokiko.  I think he admired her maternal qualities (men and their mothers), but I feel he viewed her with some romantic inclinations.  As much as the "computer-like" man was able.  (He wasn't a sociopath, though, presumably he had feelings, he just wasn't used to paying them any attention and expressing them socially.  Computer nerds are stereotypically socially inept.  And though it's accurate to say that on some levels Nemuro probably regarded the people around him much like an entomologist would a colony of ants, he was still human himself.  He just wasn't very good at it.)  Nemuro does get jealous when he sees Tokiko with Akio.  Akio channels that jealousy into his own ends.

And Mikage's search for eternity is, on some level, a quest to prove himself--to vindicate himself against Tokiko's opinions and expectations.  The "You were, and are in the wrong.  Look what I'm doing for your brother.  But I'm only doing it because I want to."  Part of his issue is that Tokiko failed to appreciate him.  Mikage even thinks that he martyred himself for Mamiya's sake.

I agree with a lot of this.  Nemuro very much had feelings, including feelings for Tokiko.  But I'd be surprised if he really saw her as a full person, rather than as a novel algorithm whose rules he had to learn through deductive reasoning as opposed to "extroverted introspection."  Over time he might have come to humanize her -- loving someone can teach you that -- but the real problem started when Tokiko didn't acknowledge that Nemuro had, or could have, romantic feelings towards anyone.  When she said that, what he heard was "you are beneath me; I am human in a way that you are not."  All his subsequent efforts to prove himself worthy of her, including his stint as Mikage, were self-defeating because they accepted her premise.

As far as the comparison between Mikage and Tatsuya's martyrdom goes, it's interesting to note that Mikage martyrs himself for Mamiya to impress Tokiko, while Tatsuya martyrs himself for Wakaba to impress Wakaba.  I wonder if that means anything.

Last edited by satyreyes (04-04-2007 09:23:41 PM)

I'm sorry to have to disagree with both of you, but I consider those to be insults.  I consider his attitude to be self-righteous and presumptive.

"Tainted" is a word with very negative connotations.  Saying "innocence" instead of "virginity" doesn't change the essential attitude of the statement.

And Wakaba does like a jerk, yes.  Tatsuya has no idea what the guy is like, and he hasn't spoken to Wakaba in several years -- he knows nothing about her anymore, but he immediately jumps to these conclusions.  You shouldn't ignore the patronizing history behind that kind of talk!  I completely object to the reflexive notion that a loss of "innocence" "taints" me; it's an indoctrinated concept and it can end up being very cruel.

In fact, Wakaba has Saionji in her home for quite some time, and they never sleep together.  When he grabs her hands, she objects.  I would go so far as to say that Wakaba knows what she wants out of romance right now, and sex isn't it.  I think Wakaba tends to be conceived of as a sort of cliche, silly, immature girl.  But there are numerous times we're shown that Wakaba has a ground in who she is, is resilient, and fairly strong-willed.

In that thread "Love in all it's forms"--remember the Heartless Bitches essay on "nice guys"?  That's basically the situation we have in Tatsuya.

I don't mean to be kicking puppies by pointing out the bad part of Tatsuya's attitude.  He IS still a pretty nice guy, nicer than Saionji.  No one is at their best when in that kind of emotional turmoil, anyway!  But there's nothing about him that is significantly different from other people who qualified as duellists.  Nothing at all that couldn't have been 'fixed' with a bit of a push.  Your basic feelings about the Black Rose duellists differ from my own in several respects, so it's probably not a topic on which we'll agree.

But I suppose that even if you don't feel the same way I do about Tatsuya's comments, it's still possible to think that Mikage was personally touched by, or reminded of himself by something Tatsuya said--something that speaks volumes about Mikage's character.  Which I feel is basically that Tatsuya's self-martyrdom in saying he'll still be there for Wakaba after she is tainted is similar to Mikage's initial reasons for seeking eternity.  And touches upon a sore spot in his memories.

Yasha wrote:

Also, CLARICE, DAMMIT, WHY ARE YOUR ESSAYS NOT ON THE SITE? I can't believe I've never asked, especially since you're the resident Analysis Whore. :p

Hee, if you'd like them, you're welcome to them! I think you already have one of them anyway, and I only wrote two others...the one on Mikage, and one about Nanami and her dear little egg. Did you want me to send them in .doc format or something at some point?

satyreyes wrote:

The quote I like best from Tatsuya's elevator ride is one that doesn't get enough play.  It's the very last thing he says: "Why can't it have been me?"  Not "Damn that slut!" or even "Damn that slut's pimp!", but "Why can't it have been me?" He hates the decision; he hates the outcome; but he doesn't hate Wakaba.  That's all.

Ah, I remember talking about this on an earlier thread, and I remember getting very bogged down in my own thoughts as to why Mikage rejected him and what this said about Mikage as a person -- because I also believed two things, that a) Tatsuya wasn't negative enough to be useful and b) Tatsuya's plight rubbed Mikage the wrong way, and he didn't want to examine the reasons why this was so. It just occured to me as I was reading all this, though, that the fact Tatsuya doesn't hate Wakaba is what ruins it...because he doesn't hate Saionji either. He does resent his presence, but his actual person? It's not what he's really concerned with. All he cares about is Wakaba, and himself. And in the end, Mikage needs people to rip the swords out of a student council member...Tatsuya's emotions about this whole situation are directed at Wakaba, not Saionji. I am now thinking that Mikage assumed Tatsuya would flip out at the person who TOOK Wakaba from him, but...he didn't.

The irony here is that Nemuro himself behaved in a similar way. When Akio "took" Tokiko away from him, he turned his resentment on HER not HIM. So there is that similarity there, although the confounding factor comes in the form of Mamiya (in both his forms). God, I love this show.

You're right, satyreyes.

I didn't mention that because this was my thought:

Tatsuya did barge in.  His only investment is really in Wakaba.  Who knows if he might turn his ire on Saionji, if he knew who it was.  Maybe, maybe not.  So, aside from whether his emotions were negative enough, you have the problem that they might not be directed toward an appropriate target for sword-pulling.

However, we have no way of knowing if only Student Council members can have swords pulled from them.  I think you can probably pull a sword from anyone (but I imagine pulling a sword from an "average" person might give you a shoddy wooden one).  But Mikage's plan involves using the Student Council members' swords because, as they are duellists, they must be qualified and have good swords for duelling.

What I wonder is whether Mikage would reject an experiment with an alternative for one duel when such an alternative (Tatsuya) falls into his lap.  No one is waiting for Tatsuya, but Mikage appears to be considering him.  Mikage listens, he responds.  I doubt he does it because he wants to be a guidance counselor. 

So I figure that Mikage would have let the experiment run.

Oop! We don't find that out until after, but they do say that, I had forgotten!

(I wonder if Akio just wasn't ready for it to be over, so, no more black roses.)

For me, Mikage is that type of genius, who needs something to gain motivation for researchers. He could discover something absolutely awesome, he could invent really amazing thing, but he needs direction to head for. His brain could be developed on many areas, so he was distracted - it was like running in every direction in the same time, so he focused on eternity issue. In my opinion he needed personal interest, but he started to be involved because he had too many time to think about Mamiya and Tokiko.
He wasn't bad, he's a person who is rather hesistant about his morality - perfect philosopher. Every erudite has doubts over what's good and what's bad - theirs minds are more open and could adapt their mentality for enviroment. If whole world is bad, there's no way to avoid being evil too.
I don't think he loved Mamiya in sexual way - he needed someting to be inspired and he was lonely. He had something that reminded him family (Do you remember cats while he was drinking tea with Tokiko?).

I've never seen him as a bad guy, he was an Akio's marionette. He's just like Faust, don't you think? The only difference is that Margerite=Tokiko is more aware of evilness of devil, she isn't reluctant.

Last edited by dlaire (07-15-2008 03:55:51 AM)

Crossed from another thread, continued here.

Giovanna wrote:

Which is actually making me think of Mikage. Definitely a kickass duel, and he's a surprisingly good fighter, but he approaches it the same way he approached manipulation (Akio's game). In both cases, treating them as a calculable science meant he was highly skilled, and really quite capable in them, but when push comes to shove, Akio and Utena had intuition and intent, and that trumped the academic take.

It doesn't seem like a huge leap from here to view Mikage as a representation of aspects of Japanese society, and a warning about them. I would further this to the fields of science in general but I suspect the former more possibly the show's intent. The school and job system, and general social climate in Japan, seems from a distance to encourage the development of technical skill above other things, leaving artistic flair and the more abstract kinds of skill (intuition) to, well, art. The result is a scientific and social climate that's very progressive, after all, technical skill gets quite a bit done, but it lacks a certain something. A soul, an intuitive mind, as if in Japan the goal is to create progress, with no real focus on where it's going, no real purpose.

These are the conditions Nemuro, and later Mikage, operate under. Computerlike, crunching numbers, but with no purpose or soul to it, unaware that a spark of intuition and maybe some soulful intent would more elegantly do the work of thousands of computers.

At the same time, it's the nature of genius to feverishly work itself. This isn't to say you never see lazy geniuses, but there's a compulsion I've seen in many of them (myself included, though I'm not technically on the level of a genius), to think ceaselessly. These are the people that are constantly doing something, but only certain somethings, unable to tolerate the boredom of idleness. This is Mikage's kind of genius, the sort that will not sit still. The sort you can give a very boring technical job to, because they have to be working their minds or they become restless. A genius of Mikage's sort with nothing to work on is like a tiger in a small space. There's nowhere for the mind to go and so it paces back and forth getting more and more agitated. This sort is certainly useful, but it's the computer, where the power is in the person that administers the commands. If there's a warning in Mikage, that he represents a dangerous flaw in Japanese social thinking, it's that he makes Japan the computer, and someone else is Akio tapping away at the keys.

I actually like to think of Mikage's story as a cautionary tale not against progress or lack of/excess of passion in your work, but one against magical thinking. Clearly, at some point before the fire, Nemuro went from being a respectable researcher to a few electrons shy of a stable isotope. Ultimately, he tried to use mathematics and physics in an experiment involving something that is neither quantifiable nor physical involving events that clearly have no causal relationship. "How many students do I need to roast alive to gain the power of eternity?" To a sane person, this is obviously not a very appropriate research topic. But it's not that much of a stretch once you're on your way down that slippery slope.