This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top06-24-2015 10:54:10 AM

Jacrad
Ballgoer
Registered: 03-25-2014
Posts: 145

"Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

With all the manipulation going on in Utena I find it really difficult to tell when a character is being genuine about what they're saying or if they're just acting out a role. So I figure we should have a thread to address that.

What prompted this for me was a scene in episode 11, the episode where Utena and Touga duel for the first time, where Anthy talks about wanting to learn how to cook just like Wakaba. I can't tell if she said that because she meant it or not?
It's annoying because I see it both ways. It would make sense if she was being genuine about wanting to cook since part of being autonomous is being able sustain yourself, which cooking plays a part in. That could also be a small indication of Anthy wanting to be free from the role that she's in and could show the subtle influence Utena is having on her. Heck, it could even be about her being able to do something for her own enjoyment. It happens to be pleasurable to eat food that tastes good.

Touga then knocks her down a peg by laughing about how ridiculous the notion of the Rose Bride cooking is. It's implied, to me anyways, that Utena can hear everything Touga's saying so it's possible that Anthy said that to give Touga the opportunity to get a rise out of Utena. It also reinforces the idea that Anthy wants to be a 'normal girl' to Utena. So she might have been saying that for the sake of the duel.

What are you thoughts?

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#2 | Back to Top06-24-2015 07:28:02 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
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Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

I assume that everything Anthy says before episode 12 (and really throughout the show, but especially before episode 12) is insincere until proven otherwise.  But this line is particularly fun because of the context.  Anthy says she wants to be able to cook like Wakaba.  But the lunch Wakaba brought for Utena that day was a tray of prepackaged instant food.  She barely cooked it at all.  A moment later, Anthy joined them with an enormous, three-tiered bento box with takoyaki and yakisoba.  Wakaba was impressed.  We don't learn explicitly whether Anthy cooked it herself, but even if she didn't, it's still strange that she compares her cooking skills unfavorably to those of an instant chef.

On the surface, this just goes to show that Anthy is pulling people's strings.  It doesn't matter that Wakaba isn't actually a better cook than Anthy if all Anthy is doing is trying to get a rise out of Touga.  From that point of view, Anthy's line only makes sense if she's being manipulative.

But deeper down -- somewhere Anthy herself is probably not aware of -- some sincerity might be showing through here.  Wakaba made an instant lunch, but she made it with love.  She brags about the time she put into arranging it to make it look delicious.  Even if it isn't as fancy as Anthy's, Wakaba's lunch represents her genuine care for the person she cooked for.  It may be that Anthy envies that quality, and on some level that's what Anthy means when she says she wants to cook like Wakaba.

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#3 | Back to Top07-04-2015 02:03:31 AM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 507

Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

I agree with Satyreyes here. Anthy before episode 12 is insincere...

[Disclaimer]: I need to rewatch, as it has been too long... so this is from memory and may not be 100% accurate, i will take your corrections!! [/Disclaimer]

My interpretation of Anthy as a whole is only to please the victor, so I would say this seems like Anthy is trying to show Utena she is *trying* to be a normal girl by having the same desires and hobbies.

Here is where I am hung up... When *is* Anthy real? Is it the end when she pitches the glasses and ditches the bobby pins? That ending scene shows that she was obviously paying attention and slowly altering her mind over the course of the show. So Utena was obviously cracking her shell (pun intended) throughout... So was this instance a façade that eventually became who she was? Or was this one of the early signs of her trying to break out of her own shell?

Anthy is so full of fake moments that once i hit the end of the show i questioned everything i believed about her. I honestly thought she wanted to change, and on first watch of the show I would have told you that oh she definitely is changing and this is her telling Wakaba and Utena that she is starting that process... but after seeing it... I definitely believe that she is pulling strings and manipulating Utena into believing she is something that she isn't.

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#4 | Back to Top07-04-2015 09:09:37 AM

Karuka
Electric Apocalypse
From: Planet Uranus
Registered: 06-27-2014
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Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

I find Anthy in particular to be in the lying part for the whole season, because Akio is pretty much using her and she is obsessed with pleasing him, until she sees Utena's genuine try to save her in the end, and she realizes that she lives in a lie and she breaks free.


まずここでこのオスカル・フランソワの命をたってからにされるがよい!

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#5 | Back to Top07-04-2015 10:36:11 AM

Snow
Troublesome Insect
From: under the dogstar sail
Registered: 09-30-2013
Posts: 643

Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

It says a lot about storytelling ability when you can read different thoughts on a purposely ambiguous character and they all make sense.

To me, both Anthy and Akio seem to play a well-rehearsed game. They kind of despise each other, but are too jaded to know any better, so they just keep playing. But they love each other at the same time, probably for being the only people that understand each others situation. It's weird.

Thus I think that when they perform their roles with particular glee, it is to get back at the situation they are in and can't escape, and also partly to get back at each other, as both feel the other is lording over them and feel oppressed and spiteful. They're just tiny little balls of spite and resentment and bitterness, the poor babies emot-frown

I think A LOT of what Anthy does and says is faked. She perhaps feels entitled by the pain and suffering she constantly endures, and I've always got the creepy vibe that she enjoys the conflict she helps cook up. There are moments in which she is genuine, but it's really hard to discern, and I believe that's where it all goes meta, because Anthy herself can't discern either. Utena and the events around her deconstruct her world, and the anguish of something you believed to be the absolute truth suddenly not being so absolute anymore could possibly explain her conflicted feelings towards Utena.

I should really do an Anthy-cetric rewatch of the series. It would be much easier to study her reactions case by case than to establish a timeline, but much more time consuming.

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#6 | Back to Top07-04-2015 12:00:10 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

Episode 12 stands out to me because we're able to see through Anthy's eyes at moments when she has no one to manipulate. Touga leaves her alone at lunch, and she looks across the table and imagines Utena there. That's not manipulation, that's actually a pang of wishful thinking. During the duel, the way Utena fights suddenly and forcefully reminds her of Dios, so powerfully that she cries, even though no one is watching her. Utena has connected with the real Anthy.

That doesn't necessarily mean that Anthy's behavior towards Utena ever becomes genuine. If caring about someone is an unfamiliar emotion, it can be scary: now you have to fear that you'll lose them, or that they'll grow to despise you. And one reaction to that fear is to actually become despicable, so that when they inevitably reject you, you feel like you had some agency over it.

Anthy is very much capable of that, or of suppressing her feelings almost entirely. But she has one advantage: a good role model. It is easy to read moments like the off-script sword swap in Episode 25 as betokening real partisanship towards Utena, an indication that Anthy is changing and trying to help. There are many ways to read that scene, and the cantarella/suicide scene, and the many bedtime conversation scenes... and after more than a decade of loving this show I still don't know what interpretation is best.

My best guess: Anthy is playing her part to the end. She is changing, but that change is internal. Her behavior towards Utena is always artificial - but that doesn't mean that grains of sincerity never slip out by accident. I think the cantarella/suicide scene is intended to manipulate, but all Anthy had to do was get Utena to duel; she didn't have to choose a mode of manipulation where she actually got to share her real pains and fears with Utena. A mode where she could act as desperate as she felt. I can't help seeing that scene, on some level, as a real cry for help, for Utena to be Dios for real.  Anthy would deny this, because she has to believe that she's abandoned hope in order to play her role and avoid even more pain as her hope is squashed. But it's a straaange way to manipulate Utena if she's actually feeling indifferent about her. And this breakdown of the boundary between sincere and artificial is all over the place. I think that's how Anthy can grow, can act more and more truly, and yet always be acting according to plan.

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#7 | Back to Top07-10-2015 01:11:30 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
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Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

satyreyes wrote:

My best guess: Anthy is playing her part to the end. She is changing, but that change is internal. Her behavior towards Utena is always artificial - but that doesn't mean that grains of sincerity never slip out by accident. I think the cantarella/suicide scene is intended to manipulate, but all Anthy had to do was get Utena to duel; she didn't have to choose a mode of manipulation where she actually got to share her real pains and fears with Utena. A mode where she could act as desperate as she felt. I can't help seeing that scene, on some level, as a real cry for help, for Utena to be Dios for real.  Anthy would deny this, because she has to believe that she's abandoned hope in order to play her role and avoid even more pain as her hope is squashed. But it's a straaange way to manipulate Utena if she's actually feeling indifferent about her. And this breakdown of the boundary between sincere and artificial is all over the place. I think that's how Anthy can grow, can act more and more truly, and yet always be acting according to plan.

I 100% concur. We talked about this years ago in a thread about the suicide attempt and it's what I tried to say then.

Anthy is inarguably manipulative and we're expressly shown as a plot point that her "true self" is not present, up until the end.  That doesn't mean, however, that Anthy didn't genuinely feel some of the things she used in her act--like partiality or guilt.  Anthy's manipulations would only be more effective if she was able to channel sincere feelings into her scenes. 

And, I mean, Anthy really escalated the whole situation with the suicide attempt.  Up until that point, sure, shit was all fucked up, but it was mostly in that abominable way where no one acknowledges it openly.  Like if you don't talk about a thing it isn't really happening.  Jumping off a tower in front of someone and confessing your sins is a pretty intense deviation from that. 

Though, I always figure that, after she got Utena's measure and has established her cover Anthy can, most of the time, behave more or less authentically from moment to moment... as long as she doesn't let slip the really big lies.  Since her presence in Utena's life is founded on lies and the underlying assumptions Anthy encourages in Utena are deliberately misleading, even Anthy telling occasional truths is farcical.  For example, all those times when she gives Utena advice about the other characters, those little gems like: "[Shiori] hasn't changed at all" or "what will happen, will happen [regardless of Utena's choices, with Tatsuya and Wakaba]" or "you can deceive yourself as much as you need".  If Utena weren't so dense and naive, she'd have noticed how cynical Anthy is.

It's always been enough for me to consider that Anthy's departure at the end wouldn't be very profound if it was spur-of-the-moment... it'd be more likely another of her ploys unless she had been genuinely changing her mind over the course of the series.  It's always interesting to consider exactly when something real has slipped versus when it hasn't, but you basically have to assume some of it is .

Although there's a scary thought I've never had before.  Jesus, what if leaving Ohtori is another manipulative tactic--what if Anthy didn't change at all and she did that just to get at Akio?  *shiver*

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (07-10-2015 01:21:33 AM)


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#8 | Back to Top07-10-2015 01:55:11 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

rhyaniwyn wrote:

Although there's a scary thought I've never had before.  Jesus, what if leaving Ohtori is another manipulative tactic--what if Anthy didn't change at all and she did that just to get at Akio?  *shiver*

Nah emot-smile  She has internal monologue as she's about to leave, the last (pre-credits) lines of the show:

Anthy:  Now it's my turn to go to you.
Anthy:  No matter where you are, I'll find you for sure.
Anthy:  Wait for me, Utena.

She's thinking of the future, not the past.  Her eyes are forward.  She hesitates for a moment on the threshold -- takes just a moment longer to get her suitcase together than necessary -- then strides across.  Then we have the whole credits, two straight minutes of staring at Anthy's back: she doesn't stop or look back once, as if the writers are making a point.  I'm sure that Anthy will at times struggle with sincerity versus manipulation for her whole life, but I don't think this is one of those times.  I think she is sincerely done with Akio and Ohtori Academy.  etc-love

Last edited by satyreyes (07-10-2015 01:57:08 AM)

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#9 | Back to Top07-10-2015 03:48:31 PM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 973

Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

The most unfathomable character for me is pretty much Touga. I tend to stick with the 'glasses off, hair down' theory of truthfullness for Anthy, as well as the few instances where you get inside her head (when you hear her internal dialogue and when she sees Utena sitting across from her after Touga leaves). I dont see any reason to doubt these moments.

Ruka as well is a character hard to trust and believe at face value.


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#10 | Back to Top07-10-2015 09:23:56 PM

Jacrad
Ballgoer
Registered: 03-25-2014
Posts: 145

Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

Touga's another big reason for this thread. I feel like with Akio it's a little more overt that he's being manipulative almost all the time. There's a few moments here and there, though. But Touga, it can be hard to tell. I think it's for very similar reasons that it's hard to tell with Anthy; he's growing and changing as the show progresses. It's hard to tell if he's letting the real self out or if he actually thinks what he says.

For me, I see Ruka as being manipulative basically the entire time. I don't think we even get a real sense of who he is as a person.
To me, he's almost a carbon copy of Touga with shorter blue hair. But I wonder if he became that person because it was the only way he saw himself being able to 'save' Juri. Had we gotten more time with him, I wonder if he would have turned out to have a vastly different personality than what is shown.

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#11 | Back to Top07-17-2015 09:11:27 PM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

satyreyes wrote:

She's thinking of the future, not the past.  Her eyes are forward.  She hesitates for a moment on the threshold -- takes just a moment longer to get her suitcase together than necessary -- then strides across.  Then we have the whole credits, two straight minutes of staring at Anthy's back: she doesn't stop or look back once, as if the writers are making a point.  I'm sure that Anthy will at times struggle with sincerity versus manipulation for her whole life, but I don't think this is one of those times.  I think she is sincerely done with Akio and Ohtori Academy.  etc-love

Yes, I agree.  But in the spirit of total paranoia, you know :-)


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#12 | Back to Top07-17-2015 09:37:54 PM

Nocturnalux
Qualified Duellist
From: Portugal
Registered: 09-10-2007
Posts: 741

Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

rhyaniwyn wrote:

satyreyes wrote:

She's thinking of the future, not the past.  Her eyes are forward.  She hesitates for a moment on the threshold -- takes just a moment longer to get her suitcase together than necessary -- then strides across.  Then we have the whole credits, two straight minutes of staring at Anthy's back: she doesn't stop or look back once, as if the writers are making a point.  I'm sure that Anthy will at times struggle with sincerity versus manipulation for her whole life, but I don't think this is one of those times.  I think she is sincerely done with Akio and Ohtori Academy.  etc-love

Yes, I agree.  But in the spirit of total paranoia, you know :-)

If you want to up the paranoia, what if Anthy is indeed thinking about Utena and of the future...only so she can now screw over Utena of her own volition? Before she was mostly doing it to follow Akio's plan but now it is personal so that manipulating Utena will be so much more delightful. school-devil

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#13 | Back to Top07-23-2015 05:18:16 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6031
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Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

YamPuff wrote:

The most unfathomable character for me is pretty much Touga.

I have studied this particular character for years, ask me anything school-eng101


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#14 | Back to Top07-28-2015 10:10:20 AM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 507

Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

so i'm in the middle of my re-watch and i keep coming back to this thread and wondering a lot about motives.

At the end of the 2nd Touga Fight when Utena is trying to win back Anthy... Anthy remembers back to a similar situation with Dios and then cries... the sword goes from Darth Vader red to plain and Utena wins.

Who is Anthy crying for? Why is she crying? Does she feel bad for Utena? Does she remember Dios? Is she further manipulating Utena?

I seriously think she is just relating to a moment in the past with Dios, but... maybe its a part of the plan. THIS THREAD MAKES ME QUESTION EVERYTHING emot-tongue

Last edited by KissFromARose (07-28-2015 12:54:56 PM)

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#15 | Back to Top07-28-2015 12:31:00 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

Heehee. emot-smile  The moment you're mentioning, in episode 12, is another of those rare moments where we can hear Anthy's inner monologue.  I don't think her reaction can be faked, because inner monologue can't fool anyone but oneself.  No one sees her tears, either.  So I'd say that her reaction is 100% authentic, and is probably the first time we see Anthy have a 100% authentic reaction to anything.

What exactly her reaction is is less clear.  I love your questions: who is she crying for, and why, and is it more about Utena or more about Dios, or what?  I think I understand it, because I have had the experience of an act of friendship punching through apathy, but I could just be projecting onto her. emot-smile

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#16 | Back to Top08-02-2015 10:49:08 PM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 507

Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

No matter how many times i see it, or how much i know whats coming -- i always cryyyyyyyyyyy ~  emot-frownemot-frown God the last episode gets me so much. And yet no even more, i still have no idea whats going on. This watch through, as mentioned in a previous post, I constantly kept ulterior motives in mind; but no matter how I read it.... I need to dig into the suicide scene more


Sorry i'm rambling, i just finished and i feel like its time to pick up episode 1 again ;~;

Edit: i realized i never event said what i wanted. Basically, what the hell is going on in Anthy's head. I feel like we need an episode by episode guide of like... ANTHY MEANS IT THIS TIME... or.. NO ANTHY IS CRAZY BITCH. did she really manipulate utena using the suicide scene???

.... I just got the dvds w/ the booklets this weekend... im on a business trip... so i didnt take them with me to read. but im dying to see what htey hold inside!

Last edited by KissFromARose (08-02-2015 10:50:36 PM)

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#17 | Back to Top08-03-2015 04:43:47 AM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 973

Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

Yasha wrote:

YamPuff wrote:

The most unfathomable character for me is pretty much Touga.

I have studied this particular character for years, ask me anything school-eng101

How does he like his coffee? D:<


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#18 | Back to Top08-18-2015 09:39:51 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6031
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Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

YamPuff wrote:

Yasha wrote:

YamPuff wrote:

The most unfathomable character for me is pretty much Touga.

I have studied this particular character for years, ask me anything school-eng101

How does he like his coffee? D:<

Generally speaking, he likes his coffee to be a proper cappuccino. Like, proper, okay? But that's in the morning. In the evening, if he takes coffee at all (usually he'll be drinking cognac or calvados instead) It would be an americano-- the espresso diluted by water.

[lol I know all, ask me anything]


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#19 | Back to Top08-19-2015 12:02:44 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
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Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

Nocturnalux wrote:

If you want to up the paranoia, what if Anthy is indeed thinking about Utena and of the future...only so she can now screw over Utena of her own volition? Before she was mostly doing it to follow Akio's plan but now it is personal so that manipulating Utena will be so much more delightful. school-devil

That's why she seems so happy. Screwing with people on your own accord is so much more personally fulfilling.


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#20 | Back to Top08-19-2015 06:09:19 PM

Aelanie
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Registered: 02-04-2009
Posts: 378

Re: "Were they faking it?" - Are they truthful words or manipulations?

I tend to avoid getting in-depth with this topic, frankly because my view of Anthy is very sympathetic and I greatly dislike some of the much more cynically suspicious theories about how deep her and Akio's plan goes, such as suggesting the childhood meeting with Dios was itself a manipulation. To me, that scene is in some ways the most "real" moment in the show. It's the moment when the show lets us, for a brief moment, step out of the web of uncertainties that is the plot as we know it, pulls us out of all of that and says to us, "This is the reality. Regardless of what the characters know or believe, beyond all the ignorance and lies, this is the bedrock truth this entire story is built upon: the resolve and compassion of a young girl to end the suffering she sees in front of her. Now, go back to watching Utena grope blindly, misdirected at every turn, for this, the truth that she has forgotten."

And the fact is, neither Anthy nor Akio ever show any sign that they remember Utena's childhood meeting with Dios. Quite the opposite, actually. Anthy genuinely appears to have no clue about it at all. Even when Utena says, at the very height of the climax, "At last we meet", Anthy gives no sign that that means anything to her. It is not a reunion for her as it is for Utena. As for Akio, he demonstrates knowledge only of what is self-evident: that Utena is searching for a Prince, and that she has an "old ring" that she clings to. He certainly attempts to take credit for it, but Akio's word can never be trusted, especially as he seems to know no specific details about precisely when or how it occurred. He speaks of it only in the most general terms, and this is leaving aside the fact that even if he did know everything about it, that is not proof it was his own doing. It would merely make it easier for him to pretend it was.

However, the greatest proof of Anthy's innocence in this particular matter resides in what I actually came here to bring to this thread's attention: If you are searching for the moments where Anthy is at her "realest", the place to look, and look hard, is at her "bedtime" scenes with Utena after they move into Akio's tower. These scenes are unique in their intimacy and authenticity. Anthy's hair is down and her glasses are off - in front of Utena. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that these scenes are, in fact, the only times that is the case before the Balcony Jump and the final duel. We all know how important and consistent the symbolism of bound and unbound hair in Utena is, as well as the meaning of Anthy's glasses. It was the same during the Balcony Jump. In that moment, Anthy's true self was revealed. It is the same here. I can't address every moment from these scenes that is noteworthy, but there are two I wish to strongly point out.

First, it's at these times that Anthy begins, haltingly, to tell Utena something. To begin to tell her, only to trail away, again and again. In the most half-hearted and hopeless way, Anthy is trying to warn Utena. It would've been impossible for her to reveal everything on her own, but she wanted Utena to pull it out of her. She was giving Utena an opening. That Utena didn't notice or inquire about it, despite it happening repeatedly, despite all her self-righteous talk of "opening up to each other", "come talk to me if you have a problem", etc. is just another reminder that Utena's words and actions often do not mesh. Anthy however, was actually trying to do that, in the tiniest glimmer of, not "hope", but something like the beginnings of it.

Most importantly though, it's at these times that, one night, Anthy says to Utena, abruptly and in a chillingly sincere way, "...Who are you?" Utena's response, if any, is sadly unrecorded. This line is usually brushed off or simply forgotten about, but this is one of the most important lines in the show, a key piece of evidence regarding Anthy's knowledge of Utena. To me, this is the final proof that Anthy genuinely does not know Utena, does not understand Utena's motivations or from where they arise. This can only be true if you accept the "child scene" for what it is, what it is presented as being - the shade of Dios visits a young girl and shows her, as she desired, "something eternal", the eternal suffering of Anthy. Even if you want to argue that that Dios was Akio seducing a young Utena into his game - although I don't believe that either - I could never believe, from the evidence, that Anthy knew about it or had anything to do with it.

In summary,

1) The bedtime scenes with Anthy and Utena do not get the attention they deserve for being "authentic Anthy" moments, and
2) there is ample and solid evidence to conclude that Anthy neither remembers nor knows about Utena's childhood meeting with Dios.

Last edited by Aelanie (08-19-2015 06:33:13 PM)

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