This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#76 | Back to Top11-30-2012 04:43:17 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1325
Website

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Lurv wrote:

I was kinda sad that some of the stuff in the opening (like Anthy and Utena on flying horses) never happened

But imagine just how contrived that can come off as inside the show's setting if handled badly; I'm actually relieved that it was only there in the opening as a visual symbol to show the "heroic" qualities of the girls.


(SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Completed as of May 12, 2018) / (PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#77 | Back to Top11-30-2012 07:07:13 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 907

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Apparently, he has accessed EM to browse the Utena Fanfic Repository...
fawesome emot-biggrin

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#78 | Back to Top12-01-2012 03:28:32 AM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

gorgeousshutin wrote:

Lurv wrote:

I was kinda sad that some of the stuff in the opening (like Anthy and Utena on flying horses) never happened

But imagine just how contrived that can come off as inside the show's setting if handled badly; I'm actually relieved that it was only there in the opening as a visual symbol to show the "heroic" qualities of the girls.

True that, but when I started watching the show, everything seemed possible. I'd wondered if time traveling was involved at some point (yeah, when watching shows I rarely think of the simplest solutions >_>).

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#79 | Back to Top12-02-2012 04:36:33 PM

Kita-Ysabell
Covert Diarist
Registered: 11-18-2012
Posts: 829
Website

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

I might be able to take credit for that.

I just waded through the entire Utena thread, and it was great fun, albeit a bit frustrating to see someone interpret SKU through the lens of rationalism fueled by a fear of the unknown (I think that post that equated a world run by non-rational, possibly emotional truths with Cthulhu is quite telling) and it's nice to see a discussion on SKU that isn't from, like, 2007. emot-dance

It got me comparing SKU to EVA, and I remember how much EVA disappointed me after watching SKU.  I think it sort of comes down to a point I've been trying to articulate for years: the difference between fantasy and abstraction.  Strange to say, but I think SKU is much more grounded than EVA, because it is more surreal.  The world of SKU is a reflection of emotional truths that real people (particularly teenagers) are likely to actually experience, rather than a contrivance to set the stage for a meditation on more far-fetched philosophical concepts.

Part of it is the whole question of "miracles."  Shay Guy wrestles a bit with this concept, and there's one definition (that he doesn't come up with) which I think is quite applicable, especially in the comparison between EVA and SKU: the intercession of the Other on behalf of the Self.  Possibly even "intercession of the Other who is not also a Self on behalf of the Self."  In SKU, there are no miracles.  If you have a problem with the division between Self and Other, you're just gonna have to pull up you big girl/boy panties and get the fuck over it, because that's just how the world works, and inexplicable forces are not going to turn all of humanity into orange cool-aid to suit your whim.

Mind you, I might be selling EVA a bit short, it's been ages since I watched the series, but there you have it.


"Et in Arcadio ego..."

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#80 | Back to Top12-02-2012 05:18:06 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 907

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

I see Instrumentality as an allegory for suicide. I doubt Anno was seriously proposing that failure to connect to other people would literally end the world.

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#81 | Back to Top12-02-2012 05:29:09 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1325
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Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Kita-Ysabell wrote:
Mind you, I might be selling EVA a bit short, it's been ages since I watched the series, but there you have it.

I see both shows as being showcases of "deep' elements, with Utena presenting it in an artfully subtle manner that attracts the intelligent, and Eva taking the more blatant,  more mass-friendly route that attracts the hotblooded.

Let's look at the the songs played during the dramatic climaxes of both shows : Revolution VS Instrumentality

Revolution uses Missing Link as the theme song;  Instrumentality uses Komm, süsser Tod (the english version is the one used in EoE).

Comparing their lyrics, it's easy to get a sense of how different are these shows in presentation, and how each would attract it's own kind of audiences.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (12-02-2012 07:19:12 PM)


(SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Completed as of May 12, 2018) / (PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#82 | Back to Top12-02-2012 09:22:11 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

In SKU, there are no miracles.  If you have a problem with the division between Self and Other, you're just gonna have to pull up you big girl/boy panties and get the fuck over it, because that's just how the world works, and inexplicable forces are not going to turn all of humanity into orange cool-aid to suit your whim.

The entire school is made possible by a magical power if not outright miracle.

Extreme luck, orchestrated coincidences, and outright magic occur constantly in SKU.

"Mysterious and inexplicable forces" motivate the entire series and its events.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#83 | Back to Top12-03-2012 03:23:32 AM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Well, I enjoy watching both Eva and Utena a fair deal, though Utena is the better mind screw. It probably helps that Utena is a fantasy show that doesn't give a fuck about making much sense, while Eva is more sci-fi and tries to sound logical even as it tries to screw with the audience. Granted, I was spoiled a lot more for Eva before I watched it, but it's true that they explain stuff a lot more in that show.

Edit: Oh, and I actually liked the post talking about how... disconcerting? a world like the one we see in Utena is. It gets me thinking, the show already deals with some disturbing things, but a fic or something that's outright Horror-ish could be fun.

Last edited by Lurv (12-03-2012 03:46:02 AM)

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#84 | Back to Top12-03-2012 04:28:45 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 907

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Can I tell you guys something? Can I reveal the awful truth?
...I identify more with Shinji's personal struggle than Utena's.

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#85 | Back to Top12-03-2012 04:39:32 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Atropos wrote:

Can I tell you guys something? Can I reveal the awful truth?
...I identify more with Shinji's personal struggle than Utena's.

I basically was Ritsuko, ten, fifteen years ago. Without the genius and good job parts.

(Is it a form of transvestism if I was Ristuko, but cosplayed Kaji all the time for conventions? Fansvestism?)

But somewhere along the line I've locked into the Shiori/Juri loop.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#86 | Back to Top12-03-2012 04:45:19 PM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Atropos wrote:

Can I tell you guys something? Can I reveal the awful truth?
...I identify more with Shinji's personal struggle than Utena's.

Not gonna lie, I've felt like a Shinji far too often. emot-tongue

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#87 | Back to Top12-03-2012 04:45:51 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

(In the spirit of shouldn't admit on an SKU forum amidst SKU/Eva comparisons truth: I think Eat-Man is smarter and more relevant to me than either SKU or Eva, but Eva and SKU have more safe moments and sweetness. Eat-Man took a downgrade when it got a non-late-night slot and was re-geared to teens. But, bless'em the makers of Eva just wanted to make a "proper" giant robot show again and they did. Be Papas knew where they were aiming SKU and they hit their damned mark beautifully. Genius anime is genius anime and I'm glad we've got all that we have.)


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#88 | Back to Top12-06-2012 07:27:19 PM

Kita-Ysabell
Covert Diarist
Registered: 11-18-2012
Posts: 829
Website

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

The entire school is made possible by a magical power if not outright miracle.

Extreme luck, orchestrated coincidences, and outright magic occur constantly in SKU.

"Mysterious and inexplicable forces" motivate the entire series and its events.

See, I thought that was just Akio screwing with the projector.  But there's already a different thread for that, methinks.  Or possibly not.  Eh.  It's a matter of interpretation.

I do think I'm on to something, but I probably missed the mark with the "miracles" explanation.  Hrm.  There is something very, very grounded about SKU, I just have difficulty putting my finger on what.

Hrm.  Attempt #2:

A lot of "conceptual" anime series (i.e: EVA, Madoka, Texhnolyze, Gantz) depend heavily on an unrealistic premise to convey their ideas.  Shinji has to face battling alternate-human aliens with a giant mecha in order to struggle with the division of Self and Other.  Makoka has to confront the rules of the Puella Magi system to explore responsibility and emotional collapse.  Ichise has to live in a weird underground city to... act like he's staring at paint drying all day.  And that... well, that's pretty much how good science fiction in the tradition of H. G. Wells works.  And just for the record, I am totally down with that, except possibly for Texhnolyze, which is so bleak and the characters are so unaffected, it's just annoying.

But SKU is less like The Time Machine and more like... I dunno, Kafka's Metamorphosis, but with teenagers, and with the self-aware conventions of a comedy manga.  I can't help but feel that the absurdist elements are less a construction and more a reflection.  Of what, I'm not sure I can say.  The character's emotional struggles?  The way they view the outside world?  The power, or lack thereof, that they feel over the world?  The audience's expectations?  A dadaist rejection of symbolic meaning?

If the characters of SKU weren't involved in the premise of SKU (the metaphysical Ohtori academy and the dueling game) they'd still go through the same trajectories.  Utena would still have trouble reconciling the feminine gender role with the person she aspires to be, fairy tale metaphor or no.  Anthy and Akio would still have a screwed up relationship, immortal demi-gods or no.  I can imagine a retelling of SKU with no absurdist elements at all, and I imagine that it would be rather boring and lose a good deal of the commentary on cultural narratives.  Maybe a bit like The Perks of Being a Wallflower, (the book, I haven't seen the movie) and I've mentioned that while it contains a very direct and almost brutally true depiction of teenage life, it might therefore be inaccessible to actual teenagers.


"Et in Arcadio ego..."

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#89 | Back to Top12-10-2012 04:02:52 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 907

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Oh shit guys.

OH SHIT GUYS.

OH SHIT YOU GUYS GUYS GUYS

HE WATCHED ADOLESCENCE

HE

WATCHED

ADOLESCENCE


emot-danceemot-danceemot-dance

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#90 | Back to Top01-11-2013 02:27:53 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 907

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Shay Guy, on Clarice's BR essay wrote:

As for the essay itself... I dunno. There's something about the writing style that sets off my BS alarm. It's not the sort of style one would use while posting on a forum like this, which leads me to suspect the author was more interested in looking impressive (she needed 10,000 words for this?) than saying anything of substance to anyone. It reads more like a literature teacher's lecture than part of a conversation, and Utena deserves a conversation.

It also reads like the work of someone who'd insist on reading deep meaning into every feature the student council's balcony ever sprouted. This is not a cartoon that always takes itself seriously.

Sounds like someone failed a literature class. I also find the assertion that Utena doesn't take itself seriously to be bizarre. Not everything is grim, but everything is intentional.

Last edited by Atropos (01-16-2013 01:55:44 PM)

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#91 | Back to Top01-16-2013 01:56:07 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 907

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Does buying episodes of an upcoming show usually cause Mark to begin it more quickly?

Last edited by Atropos (01-22-2013 12:24:37 PM)

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#92 | Back to Top02-21-2013 07:06:03 AM

MikoGalatea
Rose Bride
From: England, UK
Registered: 02-25-2012
Posts: 115
Website

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

For anyone who's still keeping track, Shay Guy's finally done his write-up for the movie.

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#93 | Back to Top02-21-2013 08:27:11 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6031
Website

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Hey, thanks! I had completely forgotten how much fun it was to read about this. emot-keke


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#94 | Back to Top02-22-2013 01:31:37 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6031
Website

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

D-d-d-double posting!

I just had to say this about Shay Guy's IWIW...


I drink your sweet tears.


etc-saiowank


Okay, serious time now. It's absolutely wrenching, in a good way, to read someone going through the same shit I went through when I first watched SKU. And he's even seen things I hadn't seen! And I've only just started reading his BRS write-ups! I've half a mind to register on that forum just to thank him for the smallish new insight Gio and I were kicking ourselves for not noticing and invite him here to add to discussion, on both this and Penguindrum. I'm actually even thinking of a rewatch thread, we haven't had one in a while.


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#95 | Back to Top02-23-2013 09:53:55 AM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1325
Website

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Even though this is technically another newbie's conversion to Utena, I figure it deserves a post at IRG because

a) it's from a member of an NGE Forum
b) said member is now rating SKU above NGE

I'm posting it here instead of starting a new thread because I doubt this newbie - having already finished the series - will do a series of posts on SKU.

Link to TenshinoChibi-kun's post here.


(SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Completed as of May 12, 2018) / (PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#96 | Back to Top07-19-2015 04:33:17 PM

Shay Guy
New Student
Registered: 07-19-2015
Posts: 3

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

*does some Googling looking for a post made by self on another forum*

*notices something that looks like someone talking about self*

*clicks link*

...

Um.

emot-aaa

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#97 | Back to Top07-21-2015 05:41:12 AM

dlaire
A Whole Orange
From: Poland
Registered: 04-08-2007
Posts: 2322

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Reading this newbies' reactions prove that SKU needs to rewatched at least... well, MANY times.

I feel there's the first of perception, Utena-like, when you watch it for the first time when you're a blossoming flower filled with innocence.
Then you know what's really going on and you see the show through Anthy's eyes.

I think this is absolutely brilliant. Of course I fell in love with SKU again.

Last edited by dlaire (07-21-2015 05:42:06 AM)

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#98 | Back to Top07-21-2015 10:24:08 AM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 907

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Shay Guy wrote:

emot-aaa

No, wait! Come back! We want to talk to you!

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#99 | Back to Top07-21-2015 10:25:45 AM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 507

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Shay Guy wrote:

*does some Googling looking for a post made by self on another forum*

*notices something that looks like someone talking about self*

*clicks link*

...

Um.

emot-aaa

Welcome Shay Guy! hahah! what an interesting wayt o find yourself ... here, yes?

Sad that i couldn't read to get caught up -- iw as looking forward to it. 503 error from that forum ;~; please tell me its just a temporary thing!!

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#100 | Back to Top07-23-2015 05:26:06 AM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6031
Website

Re: A newbie's conversion to Utena

Shay Guy wrote:

emot-aaa

I DRINK YOUR SWEET TEARS


No, but seriously, thanks so much for the write-ups. It's really wonderful to see someone experience SKU for the first time; it brings out all sorts of nostalgia, and fresh perspectives on the series are wonderful! Thanks again for writing it all out! etc-love


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