This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top12-23-2015 01:46:27 PM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 507

Black Rose Saga and Pacing

So, rewatch with a friend -- and I always get really excited when we get to BRS. Wakaba's duel gives me goosebumps every time... I could go on and on and break down each episode, watch them  multiple times but then...

Here I am watching with my friend. He enjoyed season 1 for it being original, but found BRS to be "formulaic" and "slow".

quoting here from our simulwatch:

" literally the formula is: 1) introduce side-character we've seen a couple times; 2) show the thing she wants; 3) show the failure to get it; 4) elevator scene; 5) duel; 6) back to normal
oh I forgot 4.5) sword
and 4.75) recycled duel note
and 4.8) shadow girls "

and, he's right.

I'm curious though, how do you guys feel about it? We've drank the Utena Kool-aid, but are there some tweaks you'd make to change pacing? do you think this is just the show that requires a rewatch?

One thing i know i'd have liked is to get rid of the stair steps every episode and increase duel or story time.

Wakaba's duel would've been so much more vicious had they been given more time (and probably budget). I would have looooved to see Utena get wounded or cut  up from just trying to save her friend. It was such a powerful episode. (though perhaps, didn't want anyone to get hurt because of the whole 'play duel' commentary later)

I know he uses the BRS duelists in the order from first season, but it really made Keiko's duel feel really out of place in context after Wakaba's duel.

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#2 | Back to Top12-24-2015 12:36:31 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

KissFromARose wrote:

I'm curious though, how do you guys feel about it? We've drank the Utena Kool-aid, but are there some tweaks you'd make to change pacing?

I snort the Kool-aid. school-freud

But it's true that episode to episode the pacing got fairly repetitive, especially in the BRS. I'd say the pacing was fantastic with regards to the larger overall plotline, with the bigger revelations happening a good distance from each other, and when they'd make sense. A lot of shows from that time period suffered from sudden ending syndrome, where a huge character arc gets compressed into a comparatively short period of time. Trigun is the first example that comes to mind, but Escaflowne does the same thing, and if you asked me, objectively, what the 'most perfect' anime was--Escaflowne would be my answer. SKU is longer than either of those, true, but length didn't seem to save shows anyway. SKU paces the main storyline very well. I actually wonder at times what Touga's not having to be scarce would have changed that way--sometimes the way Utena interacts with Akio in the BRS seems to me like it was meant to be a contrast to Utena's present relationship with Touga. It works without that, but it leaves you to figure out the difference on your own--not hard, but that demonstration would have been a very fascinating addition to the BRS, which is, as you say, on its own, super formulaic.

The repeated sequences, I honestly just skip now. I've seen them, and though I get the point of them as something meant to create a ritual and a lack of reality, that doesn't make them interesting the 1000th time. They are also a deliberate reference to shoujo anime in particular, with its habit of having these transformation sequences repeat in every episode, where by this ritual the character is imbued with power, and typically some level of maturity, that isn't theirs day to day. (Usagi isn't typically quite as much of a fucking klutz for example.) It's cleverly used in SKU to illustrate, literally, that elevation of the character. That addition of something important that isn't entirely their own, or at least isn't typically a feature of theirs--it's a distraction from the fact that the whole show, for everyone*, is itself a drawn out transformation sequence.

Also, they had ridiculous crazy money issues with the production of the show, so rationalized however you like, ultimately this wasn't something they had a choice on. I don't blame them for it. As for the BRS, I do sort of wish Mikage's story arc had been sprinkled more across the episodes, instead of saved for the end. As it stands, it's probably my least favorite arc to watch, and the one I'm most inclined to pick and choose out of sequence. That said, Wakaba's episodes in it are one of the high points of the show, period.


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#3 | Back to Top12-24-2015 10:43:20 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

Giovanna wrote:

As for the BRS, I do sort of wish Mikage's story arc had been sprinkled more across the episodes, instead of saved for the end.

This is a good call.  That's how the other arcs work, after all.  My favorite arc, storywise, remains the Student Council Saga, back when everything was still a mystery.  That arc did a great job parceling out the story.  In Episode 1 Ikuhara takes a giant, shiny, symbolic dump on your head; then Anthy moves in; then Nanami is introduced and Anthy's dress dissolves; then Utena duels Miki, which is interesting because it's the first time she duels someone whose hair isn't green; then Juri enters and we start feeling the formula; but before we can get too bored, Anthy and Utena switch bodies, and then Saionji kidnaps the Rose Bride and we trip balls.  Something new is happening pretty much every episode.

Whereas in the Black Rose Saga... yeah.  The Black Rose Saga is like the B-plot of the entire series.  I like it -- I love meeting the side characters, because it enriches the main characters so much -- but there isn't much development of the show's overplot to temper the episode-to-episode formula.  Back in college, my anime club skipped the Black Rose Saga for time reasons; we moved to the Akio arc, and all we said to our members was, "so Anthy has an older brother and Saionji came back."  That's not totally fair, because most episodes do build up Utena and Akio's relationship in ways that become important, but the stuff that makes you go "whoa, I haven't seen that before" is all pretty much in the first episode and the last two episodes.  (Also Nanami turns into a cow.)  I'd have loved to see the mystery of Nemuro Memorial Hall spread more evenly through the arc, more hints of Mikage being batshit insane, more insinuation that Mikage and Akio aren't strangers.  In short, the rest of the show keeps me on the edge of my seat better than the Black Rose Saga does.  But that also makes the Black Rose Saga delicious comfort food. etc-love

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#4 | Back to Top12-24-2015 11:06:06 AM

Nocturnalux
Qualified Duellist
From: Portugal
Registered: 09-10-2007
Posts: 741

Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

satyreyes wrote:

I'd have loved to see the mystery of Nemuro Memorial Hall spread more evenly through the arc, more hints of Mikage being batshit insane, more insinuation that Mikage and Akio aren't strangers.  In short, the rest of the show keeps me on the edge of my seat better than the Black Rose Saga does.  But that also makes the Black Rose Saga delicious comfort food. etc-love

More than 'not being strangers', I'd kill to see Akio and Mikage rolling around in bed. emot-dance Even if it made precious to no sense, I'd still want it because, reasons.

On a more serious note, I agree that the BR arc was something of a missed opportunity and would have benefited from being spread out across the others. And I always felt that having everyone forget about it at the end added insult to injury. I understand why it had to be so but it adds to the feeling of uselessness that already pervades that particular arc. But in a way I cannot help feeling that it creates something of a complicity between the viewer and Akio and Anthy. At the end the audience and the Ohtori siblings are the only ones who know just what happened, it almost establishes something of a meta-narrative as one wonders whether Akio has partially staged these duels so that we, the viewers, could see them.

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#5 | Back to Top12-24-2015 01:33:38 PM

BunB
Ohtori Paramouri
Registered: 11-03-2015
Posts: 91

Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

The only thing I remember about the BRS is that it had those cool draws (that YKA kinda brings back)


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#6 | Back to Top12-25-2015 08:06:38 AM

CarolineWellwater
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 10-18-2015
Posts: 67

Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

(( Hey all,

Hope everyone's having a good end-of-year-celebration stuff.

Anyway, maybe the pacing is part of the whole effect that the Black Rose arc is trying to get across.

The pacing is formulaic and trudging.  And, in doing so, it does, quietly suggest that some things shouldn't be rushed.  One of the overall themes that I've always felt was included in Utena was that growing up and maturing is a process... it doesn't happen overnight.  So... for me, I always felt that the Black Rose arc was a way to tell both Utena and the audience that growing up shouldn't be rushed.  Worse, some of the methods that the characters use to catalyze themselves from being young to adult are... some of the more dangerous coming-of-age aspects of maturing.  For example, Tsuabuki wants to be an adult, so he can be with Nanami.  And...  Tsuabuki sort of "takes" Nanami in a movie theater that is playing a romantic movie.  He even says something to the effect of, "Now I'm a man".  Shoot, Wakaba locks herself in her room with Sanonji, with a lot of similarities to a vamp or noir femme fatal.

Anyway, both of these sexual coming-of-age events, are talked about in high school and college, and both have the "oooooh, so-and-so did thus-and-such, now they're so mature!"  Shoot, even Utena mentions it to Wakaba, in the Wakaba's-day-in-the-limelight episode.  But... none of these events really matures someone.  They jump a number of pages in the story, yet, none of them really understand what they did, what happened, or why they might now be upset or more easily manipulated.

So... now, contrast these quick-and-dirty ways of becoming an adult, with the slow, repetitive, trudging pacing of the Black Arc, and, for me, it illustrates that all these schemes and machinations don't lead to maturity.  And, for me, I think that was the whole point of the "duel-of-the-day" style story-telling in the middle arc.  Becoming an "adult" cannot be done overnight... it has to be earned by taking the long road.

Does that make any sense? ))

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#7 | Back to Top12-25-2015 10:29:50 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6031
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Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

CarolineWellwater wrote:

Becoming an "adult" cannot be done overnight... it has to be earned by taking the long road.

That's a really interesting take on it, and one I'd never thought of. It makes sense. I can't build on it right now, but thanks so much for sharing!


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#8 | Back to Top12-26-2015 03:16:23 AM

Yams
Nest Boxer
From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 973

Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

I love the Black Rose Arc... even the pacing and repetitiveness...there's something so bleak and hopeless about it, like everyone's strings are being pulled.
IFUKNOWATIMEAN

It's like this really dark twist on the monster of the week shoujo trope.


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#9 | Back to Top12-26-2015 06:15:12 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6031
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Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

YamPuff wrote:

It's like this really dark twist on the monster of the week shoujo trope.

That makes sense, seeing as that was a staple of shoujo at the time and Be-Papas purposely set out to skewer those tropes.


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#10 | Back to Top12-26-2015 09:16:03 PM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 507

Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

Gio, what color is your snot? Is it pink kool-aid powder? when did it stop burning? emot-rofl

I did, when possible, skip the stair scene for my first time viewers, but mostly for me. I don't seem to remember Usagi taking all that long to transform, but i could be wrong and I havent seen Sailor Moon in a while. . . I think the worst of it is just *how long* it takes. Its fine that it repeats some things, but jeez. Mokushi Kushimo Shimoku Kumoshi Moshiku Shikumo x1000...

I 100000x agree with the Mikage plot part. If they'd have hinted at his insanity and given you the ability to try to piece it all together as it goes along, that would've made it so much better. BRS is one of my favorites of the series just because the mind-fuck that is Anthy, Mikage, and Wakaba were just brilliant. But, as i mentioned, watching it with this friend made me realize just how boring it could be if you aren't drinking (or snorting) the kool-aid.

I can totally understand skipping BRS, satyr as Utena is unusual in its 39 episodes rather than an even season's worth. BRS does have a lot of little tiny moments that are important like [oh, Anthy definitely is visiting her brother and its kind of weird sometimes] and [just how the hell did she get that hair pin] and [wait it was anthy all along, now i can't trust her!] But, these could've been condensed down. Almost wish you could make a new viewer friendly version...

As to your point Nocturnalux, with everyone forgetting BRS, it really does hurt it, in a way. I almost wish we could've seen Utena and maybe others struggle to remember it, or pieces from it break through... but maybe that would have ruined Utena's innocence/ignorance. Having determined Anthy was up to something odd would have played more into the final arc as to why Akio was able to distance the two of them. Also, as to your point about some bed action -- you should've seen the Doujin in Japan... next time i visit i'll have to pick it up and send it your way ;) maybe its cannon, we'd have to look to make sure emot-tongue

Caroline, you bring up a really good point. If that is true, i'm afraid Ikuhara sacrificed other viewers for that point... which, honestly, knowing him that is probably the case. Though i really love how we explore the characters in BRS. I can't stop talking about how deep the Wakaba arc cut into me. Seeing that formula play over and over again to watch "the onion prince" get shut down by Mikage? Man that was brutal! Then to just see this crazed Wakaba giving in to this rage just tore me up.... then she walks away from it, and its just gone! Utena notices these beautiful shining things emot-rolleyes in Wakaba, and then its all forgotten. How tragic!

Yampuff, your point would really hammer home for me if Utena had made just a slight comment about it in the show... like a second to say, "shit what is going on, why is this happening?? how do we stop it??" It would have pulled the audience in to being more aware of the repetition as a device rather than "wow they are lazy and use the same fighting scene and finishing move over and over again and stairs and then this elevator?" just nothing was new after the first few episodes. Harsh on viewers!


I'm also curious as to how i avoided all of this? Was i just hooked on the Utena kool-aid as i watched it and didn't care what happened? The one thing I remember is I got spoiler'd on the internet about Utena getting shanked by Anthy. I saw the picture and was totally pissed and confused and wanted to bitch slap anthy. I had no context as to what had happened -- I just wanted to power through the show to see what that scene was about. So I feel like i didn't get the full experience by knowing that *something* happened, and i needed to know why.

All in all, i'd like to see someone make a condensed version so I could show it to friends, get the major plot points, force them to watch the entirety of Wakaba Arc & Mikage Arc, then move on without feeling i have to beg my friends on through the end.

Also: I would pay mountains of money to get more of those two arcs, they were so damn good.etc-jurishlick

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#11 | Back to Top12-26-2015 10:03:10 PM

Nocturnalux
Qualified Duellist
From: Portugal
Registered: 09-10-2007
Posts: 741

Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

KissFromARose wrote:

As to your point Nocturnalux, with everyone forgetting BRS, it really does hurt it, in a way. I almost wish we could've seen Utena and maybe others struggle to remember it, or pieces from it break through... but maybe that would have ruined Utena's innocence/ignorance. Having determined Anthy was up to something odd would have played more into the final arc as to why Akio was able to distance the two of them. Also, as to your point about some bed action -- you should've seen the Doujin in Japan... next time i visit i'll have to pick it up and send it your way ;) maybe its cannon, we'd have to look to make sure emot-tongue

Alas, last time I was in Japan and collecting doujin I did not even look for Utena stuff so I'd exceedingly interested in getting my hands on some delicious Mikage action. So do pick it up and send it my way, I'll be more than glad to pay for it and I'd provide a first born if I thought it'd help any emot-dance

As much as I disliked the memory loss, I think it serves as a way of building a certain complicity between the Ohtori siblings and the viewer. Up to that point we are almost as in the dark as Utena herself is and we know as much about the duels as the student council does, Touga perhaps excepted, but during the BR arc we come to learn and remain in the possession of knowledge of which she and the rest of the cast is not privy to. In a way, the viewer gains an advantage over the duelists since we know more than they do.
It's almost as if Akio broke the fourth wall and had the whole BR arc just so we could see it and not so much because it served an actual purpose in-universe.

Since Mikage is my favorite SKU character, I cannot help feel sorry that once his arc is resolved he simply disappears. What I wouldn't give to see how Mikage would react to the later events of the show. Not just for rolling around in bed with Akio and co. but his insight would be priceless. Just imagine Touga giving Mikage the Akio car speech. It might not fit into the narrative and to some extent go against the whole point of the BR saga but I'd still love to see it.

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#12 | Back to Top12-27-2015 12:39:47 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

Nocturnalux, that point you've made a couple times about complicity is really interesting.  You're right -- that killer shot of Akio and Mamiya/Anthy at the end is by itself worth a few episodes.  Is it worth ten episodes?  IMHO, no, but it's certainly true that we never quite see Anthy the same way again.  I think a lot of the questions we've asked about Anthy on IRG, questions like "is her suicide attempt genuine?" and "does she see Utena as her prince?", can be traced in some way back to that moment.

KissFromARose wrote:

Yampuff, your point would really hammer home for me if Utena had made just a slight comment about it in the show... like a second to say, "shit what is going on, why is this happening?? how do we stop it??" It would have pulled the audience in to being more aware of the repetition as a device rather than "wow they are lazy and use the same fighting scene and finishing move over and over again and stairs and then this elevator?" just nothing was new after the first few episodes. Harsh on viewers!

It takes them a long time to get around to that, doesn't it? emot-smile  Utena complains all the time about the "stupid duels," but I don't think we really get commentary on the repetition until the very last duel before Revolution.

UTENA:  How many times have I fought with you here?
TOUGA:  This is the third.
UTENA:  How strange... it feels like we've fought so often...

It's a memorable exchange, and we've dissected it on the forum before.  There's a hat-tip to the cycles in which the duels move, an acknowledgment that Utena has been symbolically fighting Touga in a lot more than three duels, and so on.  Your comment made me think that there's something else going on here too: the series is finally getting around to commenting on the device of repetition in the duels.

That said, this is not exactly the first time the theme of repetition has arisen.  Literal and metaphorical vicious cycles are all over SKU's symbology, from the spiral staircase that leads to the arena, to the perpetual motion machine in the last ED, to the Shadow Girls' robot that catches monkeys and never grows tired, to Dios's merry-go-round, to the use of the word "revolution" right in the show's OP while two girls spin around inside roses.  From one point of view, the whole show is about a girl who frees herself from a millennia-old vicious cycle of abuse and self-hatred.  So you can argue that an alert viewer doesn't need to be told that the duels present the implicit question, "how do we end this?"  But that sure is a question that Utena herself ignores for the entire show.  (Ironically, in the BRS, it's the Student Council trying to stop the duels.)

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#13 | Back to Top12-27-2015 01:25:42 AM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1243
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Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

I almost gave up on the whole show during the Black Rose arc.

Seriously.

Like Satyr, I thoroughly loved (and still love) the Student Council arc because the mystery was there and the Duels themselves felt important. The formula hadn't kicked in yet, so everything felt crucial. Miki being distracted felt important. Juri losing to some terrible deus ex machina felt like a clue. Utena even lost at one point and had to reclaim her position as Victor. I had a high hopes that over the next 26 episodes the Rose Bride would change hands more than once, giving us further insight into not only the story of the Duels and the Revolution, but who the Council were as individuals once they had the position of power. We saw what happened with both Saionji and Touga in control. I wanted to see the same for Miki and Juri. Nanami was the only character whose Duel seemed like a foregone conclusion, but even that Duel had consequence for what it meant for other players in the story.

Then the Black Rose arc happened and it became the Duel/Monster/Youma/Phage whatever of the day. Which is not to say the arc is devoid of decent stories. It has them, and they play out very very well. I love Wakaba's story, and I still think Keiko's is one of the more unsung stories that deserves more attention.

But the story of the Duels and the Revolution just stops until the final two episodes that focus on Mikage, and during my first viewing of the show I lost interest rapidly. Monster of the day shows are about telling stories about the minor characters of the show, and often about introducing minor characters that have their own stories. But that wasn't why I was watching SKU. Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon told all kinds of stories during their Monster of the day episodes, but they were still just the filler between the set up at the beginning and the payoff at the end.

Having seen the whole show now, I can push aside my discontent and enjoy the stories about the supporting cast. But it's still, for me, the least watched arc of the show, and I can excise it entirely save the Mikage story at its conclusion and feel that nothing critical was missed.

Last edited by Ashnod (12-27-2015 01:26:52 AM)


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#14 | Back to Top01-04-2016 05:04:45 PM

Rikoshi
Wakaba Wrangler
From: Santa Clara, CA
Registered: 10-12-2015
Posts: 13
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Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

I never really appreciated the Black Rose Saga very much until I rewatched the series in late 2015 (it had been at least a decade since I'd watched the show in its entirety, and probably half again as long since I'd originally seen it).

It IS a bit jarring and weird and, in its own way, out of place. But I think a show as character-focused as Utena really shines in these episodes, deconstructing not just these side-characters, but the main cast that they're paired up with (and while Keiko's story doesn't really involve Touga much, it's still a fascinating episode in its own right, and I agree with the comment above that it's an underrated one).

I do agree that spreading out the mystery of what's going on with Mikage instead of relegating it to the very end would have been a better way to do things, but this is the same arc where the show is also introducing the slow-burn mystery of Akio, and where Anthy's more sinister side starts to show, and I think making an equal amount of time for what's ultimately another side-character (even if he's mirrored off of Utena herself) would have diluted the show a bit too much.

Last edited by Rikoshi (01-04-2016 05:05:00 PM)

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#15 | Back to Top01-05-2016 07:03:57 PM

Rocko52
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 12-10-2015
Posts: 17

Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

Hrm not sure if I have terribly much new stuff to add here - but I thought I would touch upon a random few thoughts I had after finishing the Black Rose Saga.

Sooo at the end of the first 3 Sagas there's always a recap episode. Out of those three recaps, usually the Student Council and Akio Ohtori recaps are considered very good examples of how to make a recap episode interesting. I'd very much agree with that sentiment
          - The first recap gives us tantalizing glimpses at the larger picture, but still keeps us far enough away that we know practically nothing & also is good at tying up the Saga and Show's central themes, and making sure their messages are communicated well
          - Of course the third recap is huge since we get to see Mr. Sexy Akio's corrupting influence both on all the duelers throughout the saga & on Utena simultaneously, which builds to a head with THAT scene.

However, it seems like people discount the Black Rose recap episode almost completely. I can see why many would disregard it though - it is a recap of "Filler" (not that Utena actually has filler emot-rolleyes lol imho) episodes and doesn't seem to give us much new or interesting information. While I would agree that it isn't a huge episode by any means, there are actually a few things I picked up on - again nothing that big, but stuff that makes the episode pretty enjoyable to me.

           - I'd say my biggest realization was how it actually reinforces the conclusion of The Black Rose Saga to a degree. That might sound odd but hear me out. Both the other recap episodes summarize several key plotpoints from their respective Sagas - duh that's what recap episodes do. The Black Rose recap is dedicated to the Nanami episodes though...which while certainly key to her character far from summarize what the Saga was about. (Most of the stuff touched upon is from the Student Council Saga too!) But when you take a step back...doesn't that cement what we saw in the previous episode? Mikage has been "graduated" wiping away all the student's memories of him - even Nemuro Hall's facade disappears and seemingly all connections to the Black Rose Duels are effectively cancelled out. So it seems to me the choice to make the recap episode of purely non-Black Rose material was a very deliberate one - it reminds us that a lot of what happened in this Saga effectively didn't happen. (Although much of the psychological effects are still left over)
           - With my more serious point out of the way I also caught on to an interesting continuity thing. In this episode Tsuwabuki is shown stalking Nanami during the curry episode - remarking something like "Even back then I was still watching you Miss Nanami!" in his journal. The phrasing of that comment & the scene itself seem to imply that Tsuwabuki still hasn't met Nanami yet - but his introduction was in Episode 6 and the curry episode was Episode 8! Well this ties into an interesting piece of trivia (which I'm sure you all must know - you've been Utena freaks much longer than I have emot-keke ) but Episode 8 was apparently going to be aired before 6 but production schedules saw it fall behind & the air times were swapped. So while what is now Episode 6 was at first 8 - based on this recap episode & the original intended order I suppose we could surmise that the curry episode actually takes place before Juri's Duel and Tsuwabuki's intro.
           - And the episode is just a lot of stupid surreal fun!
Sooo that's my random thoughts on the Black Rose recap episode!

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#16 | Back to Top01-05-2016 10:41:34 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

Rocko52 wrote:

- I'd say my biggest realization was how it actually reinforces the conclusion of The Black Rose Saga to a degree. That might sound odd but hear me out. Both the other recap episodes summarize several key plotpoints from their respective Sagas - duh that's what recap episodes do. The Black Rose recap is dedicated to the Nanami episodes though...which while certainly key to her character far from summarize what the Saga was about. (Most of the stuff touched upon is from the Student Council Saga too!) But when you take a step back...doesn't that cement what we saw in the previous episode? Mikage has been "graduated" wiping away all the student's memories of him - even Nemuro Hall's facade disappears and seemingly all connections to the Black Rose Duels are effectively cancelled out. So it seems to me the choice to make the recap episode of purely non-Black Rose material was a very deliberate one - it reminds us that a lot of what happened in this Saga effectively didn't happen. (Although much of the psychological effects are still left over)

Mmm hmm, I agree -- you can't recap what didn't happen.  The choice to put a recap episode at the end of the Black Rose Saga at all is a bit of a strange one, if you ask me.  Sure, it's cute and silly and maybe that's what we needed between grimdark episodes 23 and 25, but we could have had a new Nanami episode instead of a recap.  The use of a recap episode about Tsuwabuki highlights two things:

1) The disconnectedness of the Black Rose Saga from the rest of the narrative
2) The fact that Be-Papas was running out of money

And also

3) The fact that Tsuwabuki is no less insane than anyone else in the cast

...which, I suppose, is good to know. emot-biggrin

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#17 | Back to Top01-05-2016 11:35:36 PM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
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Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

satyreyes

3) The fact that Tsuwabuki is no less insane than anyone else in the cast[/quote wrote:


...which, I suppose, is good to know. emot-biggrin

No less insane? I could make arguments that is he more insane than everyone else. The things he does in his introductory episode, in almost any other narrative, would be stalkerish at best and proto-serial killer at worst. Not to mention the little force of nature took on three upper classmen and won. school-chef

Just saying...in the grand scheme of insanity for the cast, he's up near the top, despite his age and despite the fact it's mostly played for comedy.

Last edited by Ashnod (01-05-2016 11:36:06 PM)


Flowers without names blooming in the field can only sway in the wind. But I was born with a destiny of roses, born to live in passion and glory.

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#18 | Back to Top01-06-2016 12:35:53 AM

Rocko52
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 12-10-2015
Posts: 17

Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

The episode does actually add several more levels to Tsuwabuki's insanity. That part where he fantasized about becoming a cow with Nanami...just...just...alright then. emot-rofl

Also - the fact that most of his plans revolve around endangering/hurting Nanami in some way to make himself look better to her, tie in to the recurring themes of misogyny and how many men use/hurt women to prop themselves up and somehow think the woman will owe it to give them what they want. Although seemingly more innocent here (but let's be honest - this episode makes the kid look way more batshit than before) it also makes a nice parallel to the decidedly not innocent ways that this principle also applies to Touga and Akio.

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#19 | Back to Top01-06-2016 02:00:58 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
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Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

To be fair, Tsuwabuki is the youngest character we see, and while it's loosely implied that the others, for better or worse, seem to have had some contact with a parent figure, he appears to have been dumped in Ohtori and left alone. So given the absolute and horrifying absence of not only a parent figure, but any decent adult role model at all, it's kind of not surprising he ends up the way he does. He's asking kids scarcely older than he is what it means to be an adult, when they have no damn clue whatsoever. And if he'd aimed higher, at the upperclassmen, would he have gotten a better answer? Instead of imagining joining Nanami as a cow, we'd have watched him smacking her around. (Which, given how he completely ownz her three suitors, could very well be a sight to see.)


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#20 | Back to Top01-06-2016 02:05:54 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

Rocko52 wrote:

it also makes a nice parallel to the decidedly not innocent ways that this principle also applies to Touga and Akio.

Especially Touga, who is Tsuwabuki's role model.  Eww.

I take your point, Ash.  We didn't need Episode 24 to know that Tsuwabuki is certifiable.  But let us remember that this is a show that includes:

- A guy who believes that a girl is in love with him because it makes him feel superior to his best friend, and also he hits her and kidnaps her a lot because, hey, it's love
- A girl who believes that a guy is in love with her because it makes her feel superior to her best friend, and hurts her whenever she can in order to feel better about herself
- A girl with crippling guilt and resentment issues who is emotionally dead except when she's eviscerating her best friend or playing surrealist livestock-themed pranks on schoolchildren
- A guy who hallucinates ghosts onto real people, suffers arson-related amnesia, and stabs children with foliage as part of a convoluted plot to murder a girl by proxy
- A guy who has sex with his sister, has sex with teenagers, has sex with his fiancee's mother, and is an unsafe driver

...To name a few.  So when I say "Tsuwabuki is no less insane than anyone else in the cast," I'm saying that he clears a very high bar. emot-rofl

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#21 | Back to Top01-06-2016 04:37:16 AM

Arale
Sunlit Gardener (Prelude)
From: collective human consciousness
Registered: 12-07-2014
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Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

Actually, the downright weirdest narrative choice (?) about the Black Rose Saga isn't within it, but rather after it. Namely the fact that every plot element it introduces never shows up again. The ring turns black when a duelist dies? That would have made tons of sense to bring up later. For example have Utena leave behind her ring when she disappears, and Anthy sees that it isn't black and consequentially she must be alive. Mikage-era Ohtori not only is completely brushed aside, but also doesn't make any sense with the rest of the vague timeline we have. The closest reference there is is the idea that Akio's done it all many times before. It makes Mikage's whole plot seem ambiguously canon, like a strange spinoff or something. Which... might be totally intentional, given that everybody forgot about it. Maybe canon itself forgot about it too.

I love the Black Rose Arc. But the duels could stand to be longer. They're so tiny, especially after all the buildup that comes from the stairs sequence!

I also think that this middle arc kind of serves as a transition between the Student Council's "mysterious and ominous undertones permeating what starts as a shoujo action story" and the Akio's "everything is going to hell". Black Rose is like, it's more surreal than the first, but less intensely sexual and creepy than the third, bridging the gap.

And personally I think that because Utena is 39 episodes and a movie long, they can afford to take a detour. It doesn't work out quite as well with shorter shows, though - if Utena was a single episode shorter it would feel strained. See Star Driver's 20something episodes, it spends far too long on its middle arc (which also isn't nearly as interesting as the Black Rose) and the show suffers for it. But Utena has the room to screw around, if only just barely.

It's crazy how Utena is one of my favorite things ever, yet there's still lots of improvements that could be made with more budget and more time. Lots of dramatic moments and cool scenes missed out on that should be explored. alternatecontinuitybigbudgetmovieserieswhen

Last edited by Arale (01-06-2016 04:38:25 AM)


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#22 | Back to Top01-07-2016 01:09:25 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 907

Re: Black Rose Saga and Pacing

Interestingly enough, the Black Rose arc may be the most popular portion of the series, if its availability on Right Stuf is any indication.

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