This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#126 | Back to Top06-02-2007 05:12:01 PM

Alexandra
Covert Diarist
From: Dreamworld
Registered: 04-07-2007
Posts: 808

Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

Anthy benefited greatly from failing her math test.  She got Miki to get closer to her and she used his love for the piano to see her as his "shining thing".  She also showed to everyone that she isn't capable of math, which puts her into the stereotype of "girls aren't good at math", which then also lumps her together with the weak victim girl who needs help (seen from Keiko bullying her).  Miki believed he could see the need for help and freedom in her eyes in the dueling arena.  But it was just an illusion.

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#127 | Back to Top06-14-2007 02:14:01 AM

SleepDebtFairy
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From: Washington DC
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2096
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Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

Whoo, 1000th post. Satyreyes told me to make it a good one, but all I could think of posting was analysis babbling about an episode of SKU I was rewatching. emot-frown

Curried High Trip: For some reason, this is my favourite filler episode. I blame it on the hilarious role reversals and Anthy!Utena making Anthy look like such a toughie in front of Nanami's henchwomen.. but especially Saionji getting Anthy!Utena alone, and his exchange diary. emot-biggrin But besides that, during the role reversal, Utena!Anthy says a few things that strike me as interesting and creepy.

First of all, it's obvious Anthy staged the whole body-switching curry fiasco to teach Nanami a lesson. But it seems like she also might enjoy the temporary body-switch.. and perhaps she also wants to give Utena a view of what she goes through every day? Nanami's henchwomen scolding and slapping her, Saionji trying to control her.. Could this have intentionally also been to give Utena more motivation to save Anthy, and for the duels, or was Anthy simply trying to get back at Nanami?

The "divine justice" elephant symbolism is pretty obvious, so I won't delve into that. Still, it was pretty hilarious. emot-biggrin

Here's the scene I found the most interesting.

To avoid confusion, I'm going by Utena and Anthy's personalities, not their bodies, since they're switched.. emot-keke;; So when I type Utena, I mean the real Utena in Anthy's body, and vice versa.

We see Utena and Anthy walking, with Utena walking in front of Anthy, looking impatient.

Utena: Look, we have to turn back to normal as soon as we can.
Utena: I don't want to end up as some sacrifice to the rose seal!

Utena can't see Anthy's face because she is walking ahead of Anthy, but as Utena says this, Anthy (with Utena's face, of course) seems to look a little sad, perhaps. Then she looks down and smiles a little.

Anthy: It doesn't matter to me if we stay this way.
Anthy: I don't care about what I look like.

Despite Utena's noble intentions to save Anthy, the way she says this seems selfish. Maybe not selfish, but insensitive. Of course she doesn't want to be a sacrifice to the rose seal. That's understandable. It's not her life, and she wants her own life back. But for someone who is trying to save Anthy, it seems a bit cruel, as if at the moment she doesn't care about Anthy's fate when they switch back, and cares about herself first. A "true prince" is supposed to be someone willing to sacrifice their own life to save the "princesses", so right here, Utena isn't fitting her ideal that well. She's naive and often ignorant, and here it is obvious that she doesn't remember her past memories that well.

Of course, I'm probably reading too much into it.. We know Utena is devoted to her cause of saving Anthy. However, something about that line just seemed interesting.. Utena obviously didn't notice how cruel that might have sounded.

Anthy's line is telling too. She doesn't care if they stay that way. Is it because she suffers less in Utena's form? Do the swords still come to her in that body? I kind of doubt that, since Utena surely would have noticed.. something. The swords probably effect a spiritual/emotional level. However, maybe being in Utena's body is a little more peaceful for her, because it's like a temporary escape from her fate.. with Utena's body, she can pretend to be someone else, so to speak.

I'm interested in knowing what others think about those few lines. etc-love

Now for my pervy, silly thoughts about the body-switching.. emot-biggrin I wonder if Anthy ever had any "fun" in Utena's body. Did she ever get a chance to go see Akio on one of those saturday nights? Akio would have obviously known it was really Anthy in Utena's body, but I wonder if he wouldn't have minded having some fun with his little sister in the body of Utena.

..ahh, Saionji and his banana that doesn't look like a banana at all. etc-love

Edit: ... you know what's funny?

In the flashback with Saionji, Touga, and Utena, Touga's hair is long.

But in the flashback with Nanami and Touga, Touga's hair is short. Rather odd..both versions of Touga don't look too apart, age-wise... Hmmm.

Last edited by SleepDebtFairy (06-14-2007 03:45:02 AM)

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#128 | Back to Top06-15-2007 07:33:43 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

I've always wondered what happens with the Swords of Hate when they switch bodies. The idea of them being unable to switch back is an interesting idea in itself.


Today, I was multitasking, and so I watched episode 1-7, and 14-17.

After watching it again, I realize that the symbolism in Kanae's episode isn't too difficult to figure out. I want to go back and analyze it since Kanae gets no love.

I watched the dub of episode 17, and now that I've warmed up to it, and think that I love Shiori even more when she's speaking in English. I didn't think that was possible. But half way through the episode Shiori approached Juri to talk to her, and then those children ran by. Now, that symbolizes that she wants to talk about their past, but just the way she said it made me think, "Oh, she wants to talk to Juri about how she's carrying her child." But Juri was ignoring her even though she knocked Shiori up. That was mean of her.

So through the rest of the episode, I was rewritting the plot to go along with that. Juri was just in denial. She didn't want to believe it. But then when the sword scene came up, I realized that Juri was actually carrying Shiori's child, and not the other way around. They had a boy named Ken. But Shiori kidnapped their child, like one on of those Lifetime movies. Then Juri's child died because of Shiori's carelessness, and that made Juri sad. The birds totally symbolize their child.

... Sorry, it's the painkillers. But I think I may have just ruined this episode for myself.

Edit: Typo.

Last edited by Razara (06-15-2007 07:37:27 PM)

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#129 | Back to Top07-24-2007 04:24:40 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
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Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

I finally started rewatching Utena again. I laughed through most of the first 3 episodes, mainly because I couldn't get NajiMinkin's fandubs out of my mind. emot-biggrin

Also, something I hadn't noticed before: the book Wakaba's reading in episode 2 is Chiho Saito's manga "Magnolia Waltz". emot-tongue


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#130 | Back to Top07-24-2007 04:31:07 AM

Arki
Dark Whisperer
From: Croatia
Registered: 10-28-2006
Posts: 1123

Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

I've started rewatching SKU too. If you can call it that. I basically pause an episode every 5 seconds because a new theory in my head forms and I don't want to let it slip. emot-rolleyes

Last edited by Arki (07-24-2007 04:35:13 AM)

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#131 | Back to Top07-24-2007 07:09:31 AM

Pandora
Pathtracer
Registered: 04-05-2007
Posts: 351

Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

I'm rewatching too, it takes no time at all if you skip the opening, the ZUM sequence and the egg speech!

I'm on episode 20. That's my favourite. It's SO sad.

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#132 | Back to Top07-24-2007 08:15:43 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
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Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

Arki wrote:

I've started rewatching SKU too. If you can call it that. I basically pause an episode every 5 seconds because a new theory in my head forms and I don't want to let it slip. emot-rolleyes

I hope you'll share some of them with us.

I hope to get my DVDs back tomorrow, then I'll probably go through them all again too.emot-keke


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#133 | Back to Top07-24-2007 09:15:17 AM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

Arki wrote:

I've started rewatching SKU too. If you can call it that. I basically pause an episode every 5 seconds because a new theory in my head forms and I don't want to let it slip. emot-rolleyes

The pause button is my friend... etc-love

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#134 | Back to Top08-12-2007 11:42:52 PM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
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Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

Razara wrote:

Arki wrote:

I've started rewatching SKU too. If you can call it that. I basically pause an episode every 5 seconds because a new theory in my head forms and I don't want to let it slip. emot-rolleyes

The pause button is my friend... etc-love

Ahahaha, I always do that after the Shadow Girls' scene. It takes me a while to fgure out what they mean so sometimes I have to rewatch the scene too.

And episode 6 is the most random episode in SKU. The Shadow Girls made about as much sense as those chickens and the kangaroo. I don't want to find a reasonable interpretation to that. emot-gonk

Nanami's episode always breaks my heart when I see her crying while running away from the river. emot-frown

And Touga's second duel is awesome. I especially liked that both Anthy and Touga were so shocked after Utena had won. That, and because Utena had so many motives to win the duel, and that Utena was being herself when she fought that duel.

Ah, and the last episode of the first arc also implies that the Shadow Girls really are aliens. emot-gonk They boarded a UFO and disappeared for the entire Black Rose Arc.


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#135 | Back to Top08-13-2007 05:35:23 AM

Pandora
Pathtracer
Registered: 04-05-2007
Posts: 351

Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

So I've just finished watching the Black Rose arc. It makes a lot more sense to me now than it did the first time around. First time, I just thought it was some boring filler but this time I really enjoyed it. Understanding the symbolism and whatnot really helped emot-smile

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#136 | Back to Top08-15-2007 07:42:50 PM

Baka Kakumei Reanna
Atlantean Singer
From: Wisconsin
Registered: 07-31-2007
Posts: 572
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Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

Maarika wrote:

Razara wrote:

Arki wrote:

I've started rewatching SKU too. If you can call it that. I basically pause an episode every 5 seconds because a new theory in my head forms and I don't want to let it slip. emot-rolleyes

The pause button is my friend... etc-love

Ahahaha, I always do that after the Shadow Girls' scene. It takes me a while to fgure out what they mean so sometimes I have to rewatch the scene too.

And episode 6 is the most random episode in SKU. The Shadow Girls made about as much sense as those chickens and the kangaroo. I don't want to find a reasonable interpretation to that. emot-gonk

Nanami's episode always breaks my heart when I see her crying while running away from the river. emot-frown

And Touga's second duel is awesome. I especially liked that both Anthy and Touga were so shocked after Utena had won. That, and because Utena had so many motives to win the duel, and that Utena was being herself when she fought that duel.

Ah, and the last episode of the first arc also implies that the Shadow Girls really are aliens. emot-gonk They boarded a UFO and disappeared for the entire Black Rose Arc.

I can't help crying at the end of Nanami's duel. Not as much as because of how Nanami feels, but the fact that Touga is pretty much exploiting her, and she has no chance of understanding that.


We see things not as they are, we see things as we are.

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#137 | Back to Top08-15-2007 10:04:42 PM

Ragnarok
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From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
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Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

As awful as Touga is for doing that, I doubt it would have helped Nanami to realize it on any level. Some years down the line, yes, definitely. And I have faith that she would eventually catch on to the type of person that Touga is, assuming he stays that way. However, though it's partly staged for Utena's sake, Touga does comfort Nanami after her duel. If she knew the truth, that her most precious thing in the whole world was using her; she might stick herself in a box heading down that river.


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#138 | Back to Top08-15-2007 10:37:57 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
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Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

I have to agree. While I do become somewhat snarky towards Touga sometimes when it concerns Nanami, I think that his exploitation of her is more... humane, for lack of better term.* You see the way she behaves when Touga tells Keiko that he doesn't really care for Nanami the way he seems to? It crushes her. I think that Nanami's pain is the first step in her ultimate revolution, but one thing about Nanami that I always loved was that she does not duel for revolution. She still attacks Utena, even after her rose is lost. Nanami needs this lie. She needs something to believe in, and I think she deserves to have that at least.

*AKA, a term that doesn't compare Nanami to a house cat. LOL cat, Nanami... IT WAS FUNNY.


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#139 | Back to Top07-21-2008 11:05:29 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
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Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

I started rewatching Utena after so long. I love the silliness of the first episodes and what I said about Naji's fandubs ruining the serious moments still applies this time around as well. emot-tongue I think I know some of the fandub lines by heart now.

Also, I thought it was silly how Utena fought and won the rematch with Saionji for Chu-Chu's sake. I wrote an existentialistic analysis (I ought to post this) about duelling and Utena's selfless reasons behind fighting but I never thought about this duel.


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#140 | Back to Top07-21-2008 03:35:42 PM

P.D.M.
Touga Topper
From: Budapest, Hungary
Registered: 06-24-2008
Posts: 54

Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

Nothing against this thread or anything, but I think it came a bit too early. If we are going to make (yet)another grand rewatch of Utena, we should wait until the remakes arive(in whatever manner), and then we could have the whole forum to rewatch it as if we never saw it before, like, one episode a week.

Yeah, does anyone else think that would be awsome?

EDIT: Fandubs? I dont know about any fandubs.

Last edited by P.D.M. (07-21-2008 03:55:29 PM)


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#141 | Back to Top07-21-2008 04:28:01 PM

BalamiyaVardihi
High Tripper
From: New Jersey
Registered: 12-16-2007
Posts: 243

Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

Tamago wrote:

I must agree with you on this point, the S K Utena anime deserves to have the animation redrawn, preferably the same quality as they used in the Utena movie but in keeping with the anime style…etc-love after all the last thing anyone wants to see is a foppish Akio prancing around the place. emot-gonk

You and me, Tamago. I'd love to see that. etc-love


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Spinning, weaving round each new experience.
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#142 | Back to Top07-21-2008 09:28:16 PM

Baka Kakumei Reanna
Atlantean Singer
From: Wisconsin
Registered: 07-31-2007
Posts: 572
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Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

D: Gods, an IRG Utena fandub would be awesome.

Specifically, a parody fandub. Eh heh heh.

Aside from that, yes-- another forum-wide one episode a week rewatch would be great. I know I'll participate.


We see things not as they are, we see things as we are.

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#143 | Back to Top07-21-2008 11:16:27 PM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
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Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

ULTIMATE FANDUBS: http://www.youtube.com/user/NajiMinkin the first episode is here: http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/se … e-rose_fun

P.D.M. wrote:

Nothing against this thread or anything, but I think it came a bit too early. If we are going to make (yet)another grand rewatch of Utena, we should wait until the remakes arive(in whatever manner), and then we could have the whole forum to rewatch it as if we never saw it before, like, one episode a week.

Yeah, does anyone else think that would be awsome?

Oh yes, that's a good idea and I'm in as soon as the remastered version becomes available. Although one episode per week would be very slow.

I'm still going to continue my rewatch though.


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#144 | Back to Top07-22-2008 02:41:44 PM

P.D.M.
Touga Topper
From: Budapest, Hungary
Registered: 06-24-2008
Posts: 54

Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

Ah, don't tell me it's those fandubs?

I mean, the're awsome and all, it's just that i saw them before and thought this is something different. I just wish he\she would take the effort and finish them.

You hear me, Najimikin? FINISH YOUR DUBS!

Last edited by P.D.M. (07-22-2008 02:44:39 PM)


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#145 | Back to Top03-08-2009 09:09:39 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2925

Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

So, I started rewatching Utena today from the beginning. It's the first time in years.

The most important thing I realized from episode 1 was that it is soooo much easier to see the puppet mastery of Akio, Anthy, and Touga(to an extent) after watching the entire series.

We all know that Saionji didn't put that letter on the wall. He doesn't give enough of a damn to bother humiliating Wakaba like that, so Anthy did it. Everything that happened in episode 1 was contrived by Anthy to get Utena to duel. The scene with Saionji outside the greenhouse, the haunting scent of roses, and so on. The only thing that might be questionable was the appearance of Dios to help Utena win her duel, judging by the shock on her face. However, Anthy has been shown to be one hell of an actress.


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
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#146 | Back to Top03-09-2009 07:51:17 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
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Re: Rewatching Utena (I WANT YOU TO PLAY TOO)

I started rewatching about a week ago.  I'm not sure I agree with your assessment about Anthy putting the letter on the wall.  First of all, Saionji says that he did it.  Second of all, it's a bit too active for first-season Anthy.  I can imagine that Anthy said something to put the idea into Saionji's head, most certainly...though...I guess it never occurred to me that Akio/Anthy orchestrated Utena's first duel.  However I, too, am seeing small signs I missed the first few times ... and the friend watching it with me, I'm fairly sure, is missing it.  I'm trying to keep my mouth shut as much as possible so I don't ruin the impact.


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