This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#26 | Back to Top10-24-2006 07:36:47 PM

ZSPACE
Touga Topper
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 57

Re: Himemiya

Is it possible that Anthy is a prince? You know, just a deflowered, pissed off one.

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#27 | Back to Top11-09-2006 10:09:11 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 589

Re: Himemiya

I don't think she ever WAS a prince, but perhaps WILL be one. The opening credit shows her in armour riding a horse. The final scene shows her going off on a quest to rescue the sleeping beauty Utena.

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#28 | Back to Top11-10-2006 03:48:35 PM

bella
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 11-04-2006
Posts: 581

Re: Himemiya

Yasha wrote:

Anothr explanation could be that the character of the Prince is calling the character of the witch by the name of 'Princess-Shrine'-- mistaking her for something holy and precious, something to be protected. This explains it symbolically, both pointing out Anthy's masquerade and eventual transformation into the person Utena believes her to be. A metamophosis of sorts.

I think I tend to go with this interpratation. Regardless of how Anthy felt about her, Utena loved Anthy in one way or another. I think that by the end of the series, we saw  what was on Utena's part, an unconditional love for Anthy, regardless of what Anthy was, had been, or had done. Seeing it that way, Utena calling Anthy by her last name in the last episode makes sense to me. etc-love Good one Yasha.


Happy Holidays Everyone! :3

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#29 | Back to Top11-10-2006 08:42:47 PM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: Himemiya

I tend to agree with the notion that Utena called Anthy Himemiya because of her desire to be a Prince.  It's been pointed out that it's more "masculine"--which Utena seemed to think was a necessary veneer to wear as a Prince.  Also, the meaning "princess-shrine", means that everytime Utena says "Himemiya", she is calling Anthy a princess.

I also think the formality is appropriate, it's Princely chivalry.

I don't think it's as much a realistic character-driven choice, as a plot-driven choice.


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#30 | Back to Top11-11-2006 08:11:27 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Himemiya

The fun thing about the archetypes Utena uses is that almost every character can be easily fitted with the three aspects of Prince, Rose Bride, and Witch. emot-biggrin

Juri, for example. As a Prince, she has a high sense of honor and is very protective of those she loves. She gives Utena a sword to duel Touga with, in order to defeat him and take back her self. She attempts to defend Shiori from Ruka, and protects her when she can. As a Witch, she attacks Utena and attempts to rip off her ring. She derides Utena's idea of becoming a 'Prince', and slaps Anthy. As a Rose Bride, she is bound to Shiori and her burden is her unrequited love for her.

Miki as a Prince defends Anthy, protects her from bullies, and believes in allowing personal freedom for her. His role as a Witch is subdued, and has to be read into: he forces his own opinions and feelings on Anthy by attemtping to take her from Utena by force. By doing this, he plays the Witch to Utena's Prince. Miki as a Rose Bride is bound to Kozue, and his burden is the loss of their childhood and Kozue's innocence.

All three aspects play into each other. For example: a character may believe they are acting Princely while they are actually acting as a Witch. Ruka is a good example of that. 

Anthy does have Princely qualities in greater measure than many of the main cast have.


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#31 | Back to Top11-11-2006 08:25:56 PM

Nessy
Sunlit Gardener (Prelude)
Registered: 11-04-2006
Posts: 169
Website

Re: Himemiya

There's also the ending of the comic to consider.

http://www.lemon-chiffon.org/etc/anthyprince.jpg

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#32 | Back to Top11-11-2006 08:37:45 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Himemiya

Well, I didn't see that as Anthy being shown as an acting prince, but rather for her striving for a more noble life, or to act more like Utena had before the end of the series hit. Since Utena is so strongly on her mind and imprinted into her lifestyle, Anthy appears wearing her old outfit. She's seen embracing a nude, but oppositely-posed Utena to display that Utena is there in more of a spiritual sense than a physical, and/or also that there's a sexual nature to her desire toward her. The opposite-upside down direction gives the impression of duality and also distance.

Um, excuse me while I dissect. emot-redface


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#33 | Back to Top11-26-2006 06:43:39 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 589

Re: Himemiya

Ivy-chan wrote:

The fun thing about the archetypes Utena uses is that almost every character can be easily fitted with the three aspects of Prince, Rose Bride, and Witch.

That's a great observation and it rings true. And between the two of them Utena and Anthy enact a lot of different archetypes: Prince, Witch, Innocent, Seductress, Soot-covered girl, Sleeping Beauty, Victim, Childe, Hag, Gatekeeper, Goddess, Sacred Prostitute, Lady Liberty and probably a few more. In fact they both seem to enact all those roles each.

That illustration comes from a teaser so I am slightly mistrustful of it. It comes from a larger montage showing Utena carousing with Miki and Kozue, Anthy with some strange symbol on her forehead etc. Possibly it is mere mis-direction designed to confuse viewers. But still I wonder if there are clues to characters and desires in that montage.

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#34 | Back to Top11-26-2006 07:37:10 PM

Nessy
Sunlit Gardener (Prelude)
Registered: 11-04-2006
Posts: 169
Website

Re: Himemiya

brian wrote:

That illustration comes from a teaser so I am slightly mistrustful of it. It comes from a larger montage showing Utena carousing with Miki and Kozue, Anthy with some strange symbol on her forehead etc. Possibly it is mere mis-direction designed to confuse viewers. But still I wonder if there are clues to characters and desires in that montage.

I'm realizing now that it was probably a mistake to post that picture--my intent was only to remind people who have read the comic of what I was talking about. But I guess having the illustration there was misleading instead. It wasn't actually what I was referring to.

Of course, there's a lot to debate about the validity of Anthy's apparent princeliness at the end of the comic, too, but I'm not the best at sounding eloquent when I talk about my opinions, so...

Actually, now I'm curious. Who here has actually READ the comics?

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#35 | Back to Top11-26-2006 07:54:59 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 589

Re: Himemiya

I found other links here:
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/movie/Art21.jpg
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/movie/Art20.jpg
I am curious about these images but perhaps we should create a new topic for that. There is another one showing Utena with her armor bursting off and her eyes wide open and I am really puzzled what that is saying.

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#36 | Back to Top11-26-2006 08:19:01 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 589

Re: Himemiya

Anyway, to get back on topic, I am thinking about Anthy stabbing Utena. One could just as easily say that Anthy was being loyal to Akio as betraying Utena but probably she was not really thinking at all. It was probably just panic, similar to the panic she was feeling when she first locked Dios away.

I think that at that same emotional point in the movie and movie manga we see Anthy hesitate when Utena urges them to escape to the outside world. In the movie Utena is sucked into the car wash while Anthy whimpers in terror. In the movie manga Utena drowns in roses, while Anthy looks on helplessly. In the original manga Utena is lashed by rose thorns while Anthy looks on with unseeing eyes. So it is not betrayal by Anthy or an attempt to rescue Utena or anyone else, Anthy is just not thinking  clearly. It's just terror, a habit carried over from a lifetime of terror and grief and remorse and loneliness. In all cases Anthy hesitates, Utena is lost, Anthy now realizes that she now has to free both herself and Utena.

Anthy had tried to have both Utena and Akio and was terrified at losing either of them and perhaps both.  In all four stories Utena is immobilized until Anthy awakens and finds her true heart and true courage. First Utena showed her an example of courage and then Anthy scraped the rust off of her heart and followed.

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#37 | Back to Top11-26-2006 08:59:23 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Himemiya

brian wrote:

Anyway, to get back on topic, I am thinking about Anthy stabbing Utena. One could just as easily say that Anthy was being loyal to Akio as betraying Utena but probably she was not really thinking at all. It was probably just panic, similar to the panic she was feeling when she first locked Dios away.

Akio gives Anthy the sword of Dios, though. And Anthy's actions appear quite composed and controlled. Stabbing Utena seems like something Akio and Anthy arranged long before the duel began.


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#38 | Back to Top11-27-2006 06:46:14 AM

Hina the Prince
Friend, Perhaps
From: Israel
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 320

Re: Himemiya

Ragnarok wrote:

brian wrote:

Anyway, to get back on topic, I am thinking about Anthy stabbing Utena. One could just as easily say that Anthy was being loyal to Akio as betraying Utena but probably she was not really thinking at all. It was probably just panic, similar to the panic she was feeling when she first locked Dios away.

Akio gives Anthy the sword of Dios, though. And Anthy's actions appear quite composed and controlled. Stabbing Utena seems like something Akio and Anthy arranged long before the duel began.

I agree. I don't think Anthy panicked when she locked away Dios, either. She just wanted the world to leave him alone.

Giovanna wrote:

Ivy-chan wrote:

This gives her moments of true, intense emotion even more impact: the single tear she sheds during Utena's second duel with Touga, and her guilt-inspired attempted suicide near the end of the series.

100% agreement, just throwing in her genuine laugh in episode 25. That's a big one. emot-smile

When was that? I skimmed through the episode and didn't see it. DDD: I gotta rewatch SKU.

Last edited by Hina the Prince (11-27-2006 06:47:28 AM)

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#39 | Back to Top11-27-2006 08:20:32 AM

Dani
IRG Messiah
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 361

Re: Himemiya

Hina the Prince wrote:

When was that? I skimmed through the episode and didn't see it. DDD: I gotta rewatch SKU.

It's a giggle really, but for Anthy, wow. She's laughing at Utena and Wakaba's banter at the table and her reaction seems genuinely spontaneous. Akio glares at her in a horrifying way like he doesn't think she's EVER entitled to enjoy life. It's the scariest he ever gets IMO and it's a real moment of insight into how controlling/jealous of her he really is.

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#40 | Back to Top11-28-2006 09:12:28 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 589

Re: Himemiya

I think that scene oddly supports my idea. Wakaba and Utena inadvertantly make her giggle for possibly the first time in years, and Akio is outraged. He wants her to be fearful of any happiness he does not provide.

The word "panic" is unfortunate because it implies something that flashes by and is gone. But Anthy's thoughts have been clouded and distorted by fear from since before Dios "died." If asked to explain her action rationally Anthy might say something like:

- Akio has always been good to me, Utena is an interloper.
- Akio knows me as I am, Utena does not.
- Akio knows the world as it is, Utena does not, she has not seen the horror of the world.
- Akio has a fixed purpose, Utena cannot even make up her mind whether she is a Prince or a Princess. Even after she promised to save me she let Akio confuse her and put her on the defensive.
- Akio is family.
- There is nothing for me in the outside world.
- It's my fault that he is the way he is, I must serve out my well-deserved punishment.

To Anthy this seems like logic. Every one of these propositions is erroneous but they make a lot of sense to someone dominated by fear. He probably is deeply humiliated on some level that he had to have Anthy rescue him from Utena and would not have resorted to it except in case of emergency. Fear, grief, doubt and self-loathing are interrelated emotions.

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#41 | Back to Top12-07-2006 03:32:00 PM

StarlightArcher
Miki Molester
From: Texas
Registered: 12-06-2006
Posts: 30

Re: Himemiya

That's why SKU is such a great show. Because there are characters that are incredibly complex and relatable. The thing that makes Utena and Himemiya such wonderful characters is that they're human. And fear, anger, resentment, good intentions, self-centeredness are all things humans struggle against.

It's my belief that fear is a large part of why Himemiya stabs Utena. Her reasoning could be something like "Better the devil you know that the one you don't." The whole show is about revolution. Revolutions are frightening things, the world you know goes spinning on its head, and you have to rethink everything. Himemiya has been the Rose Bride so long, she's been controlled (and in strange ways) cared for by Akio for so long that she probably is afraid of the idea of independence.

That's why the last line of the show is great. Anthy crosses the tracks, takes her future into her own hands, and becomes Utena's equal. For the first time in who knows how long, it's up to her, and finally she's not afraid.

And we've all been in her shoes, in some way. We all retreat into our coffins to lick our wounds and hide from the world. There in the dark, we all wait to die or be rescued. Just like Anthy, hiding in her coffin, believeing herself to be completely alone and completely unsavable (by Akio or anyone else).

On the other hand, one could always argue that it was Anthy's love for Utena which caused her to stab Utena.

When Utena entered the arena that final time, she went with her eyes open. She realized it was about about saving a friend. Not meeting her prince or trying to be one, but about helping Anthy be free. Perhaps Anthy knew Utena wouldn't stop, that she would be the prince to open the Rose Seal. No matter the danger of the Million Swords. In that case, couldn't it be seen as an act of kindness? That she would wound Utena to keep her away from the Swords.

It's probably too limiting to simplify her thoughts or actions as just "Theory A" or "Theory B." When we as humans do things, rarely are our motives that clear. And it's their human-ness that I love best about the show.


Why yes, I am made of Fabulous!

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#42 | Back to Top12-23-2009 08:38:57 AM

sharnii
Pharaoh of Phanstuff
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 08-10-2008
Posts: 2416
Website

Re: Himemiya

Maarika: Have you noticed how Utena always addresses Anthy as "Himemiya", while the majority of everyone else always calls her Anthy? (Well, putting aside manga and movie >.>)

After rewatching the series, I found only one part (unless I overlooked something) where Utena addressed her as Anthy. It was in episode 20, just before the duel with Wakaba.
I think there has to be a reason why she does so. I'm thinking that it might be because of the way how people treated Anthy, so this was Utena's way of showing respect to her. But I don't know really, what do you think?

There's some really great Anthy analysis in this thread - I've enjoyed reading it. etc-love

Interestingly I didn't find the answer to this question that I've always accepted as the likely reason. I think Utena calls Anthy "Himemiya" to be different from everyone else. Other people usually call her "Anthy". Especially her victors...who call her "Anthy" when they are her victors.

Not from friendship mind you, but from the fact that she's the lowest of the low, the rose bride. In the case of the victors - someone forced into intimacy with them, in the kind of relationship a husband has to his wife (who he will call by her first name while she addresses him with the polite -san or ultra-respectful -sama that Anthy uses).

So "Anthy" being called "Anthy" by Akio (which at least makes sense - he is the older respected brother), Touga, and Saionji is actually an insult when you think about it.

In contrast Utena gives Anthy respect by using her more impersonal and formal family name. She doesn't use her first name and a suffix (say Anthy-chan for instance) because that would be too close, and would be imposing close friendship on Anthy when they are not really friends yet (don't even know each other). She doesn't call her Himemiya-san because that would be a stranger, and Anthy is more than a stranger. As well as respect "Himemiya" shows Utena doesn't buy into the whole rose bride deal, since she won't use the right terminology to back up Anthy's role as her possession/bride.

The fact that she uses "Anthy" at the duel with Wakaba, at a point when they really could be friends, and Anthy as her friend is begging Utena to do something to her best friend Wakaba that she just can't conceive of...
...is a powerful hint to the true status of their relationship.

Utena says "Anthy" in an unguarded moment when she's begging Anthy to see things her way - appealing to their closeness. She reverts back to Himemiya when removed from the emotional cliffhanger.

Anthy says "Utena" rather than Utena-sama when she steps out into the real world. Basically through this linguistic choice she acknowledges their more-than-friendship (to call someone by only their first name is actually very intimate from what I understand. You can't just come out and do it like you can in English...it's common to ask permission at a certain point. Usually friends would be more like Utena-chan, unless you were older and they were younger in the case of Juri and Shiori ie Juri-san and Shiori/Shiori-kun). She also acknowledges that she is not the rose bride, and Utena is not her victor...when Touga won Anthy off Utena she called Utena "Tenjou-san".

She's saying she's free, and that she loves Utena (in whatever form you want to take that). And all in a form of address! *sniffles*

Don't you just love the Japanese language with all it's formality and politeness rules?

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#43 | Back to Top12-23-2009 10:34:13 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Himemiya

sharnii wrote:

Don't you just love the Japanese language with all it's formality and politeness rules?

Speaking as another who has studied the language: NOemot-gonk

But I agree with your central point and think you're transparently right about why Utena calls Anthy "Himemiya" almost all the time.  It'll be interesting, if they meet in the outside world, to see how Utena addresses her then.

Damn, I think I might have hurt my N and O keys.  emot-smile

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#44 | Back to Top12-23-2009 01:00:51 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 589

Re: Himemiya

I love these linguistic analyses. Keep them coming!

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#45 | Back to Top12-23-2009 02:21:30 PM

Anthiena
Egghead
From: ...the space between your ears
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1108

Re: Himemiya

...however, the bit on the Wakaba Duel where Utena called her Anthy is changed with the remaster-the line is corrected to "Himemiya..."

I would like to point out that this is one of the few times where Anthy takes a hand in the Duels-Miki's first Duel, Touga's first Duel, this one and Saionji's third Duel.

The thing is too, perhaps the name "Anthy" reinforces her role as Rose Bride. ("Flower")

...but once Utena starts seeing Anthy as a person, perhaps it's taken as something growing, blooming into the person she can be, instead of the winter she's been in.


I stopped seeking to be sought after. That wasn't being true to myself.
I want to become someone who can exercise power. I want to become a prince. - Ikuni

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#46 | Back to Top12-23-2009 06:54:21 PM

sharnii
Pharaoh of Phanstuff
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 08-10-2008
Posts: 2416
Website

Re: Himemiya

satyr: It'll be interesting, if they meet in the outside world, to see how Utena addresses her then.

Very! emot-biggrin In fact I think that's one of the most fascinating things about when they meet again. So much can be done with it. etc-love

For my own part in the fantasy world of post-series fanfic (Roses Grow) I had Anthy use "Utena" but slip back into Utena-sama at times. And I had Utena exclusively use Himemiya until some key events happened between them, including an emotionally intensive moment for Utena to use it accidentally (like the duel with Wakaba).

I think for Utena to call Anthy by her first name (even in the real world) would involve her admitting certain things about her feelings to herself. But that's just one of many possible takes. school-devil

Anthiena: ..however, the bit on the Wakaba Duel where Utena called her Anthy is changed with the remaster-the line is corrected to "Himemiya..."

Really? Ooooh this changes everything. I guess that means it really was just a mistake by the makers and Utena is meant to call Anthy "Himemiya" throughout the anime. Very interesting.

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#47 | Back to Top12-23-2009 07:54:55 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Himemiya

Thinking about it, though... it seems like an odd mistake to make. I wouldn't be that surprised if it was done on purpose and, ten years later, Ikuhara forgot and thought it needed fixing.


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#48 | Back to Top12-23-2009 09:51:10 PM

Itsuke
Pathtracer
Registered: 12-08-2008
Posts: 341

Re: Himemiya

Ragnarok wrote:

Thinking about it, though... it seems like an odd mistake to make. I wouldn't be that surprised if it was done on purpose and, ten years later, Ikuhara forgot and thought it needed fixing.

I agree. When voice actresses do their recordings, don't they just read it off the script? It's not likely that it could be a mistake on Miss Kawakami's part. Even if it was, wouldn't the staff in the recording studio point it out? Perhaps it was intended that Utena would call Anthy by her first name in that scene, but a decade later Ikuhara wanted to mend it for consistency's sake.

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#49 | Back to Top12-27-2009 06:15:25 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Himemiya

Itsuke wrote:

Ragnarok wrote:

Thinking about it, though... it seems like an odd mistake to make. I wouldn't be that surprised if it was done on purpose and, ten years later, Ikuhara forgot and thought it needed fixing.

I agree. When voice actresses do their recordings, don't they just read it off the script? It's not likely that it could be a mistake on Miss Kawakami's part. Even if it was, wouldn't the staff in the recording studio point it out? Perhaps it was intended that Utena would call Anthy by her first name in that scene, but a decade later Ikuhara wanted to mend it for consistency's sake.

One story you could tell, although this falls more in the realm of personal canon, is that Ikuhara originally scripted a subplot in which how Utena and Anthy addressed each other changed over the course of the show.  He might have cut it for lack of narrative space or because he changed his mind, but missed this instance in removing references to that subplot.  This is how many continuity errors in drama arise.

Edit: It turns out they changed that line in the remaster to make Utena say "Himemiya" anyway, so nm emot-biggrin

Last edited by satyreyes (09-28-2013 06:18:29 AM)

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