This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top10-24-2015 09:21:04 PM

CarolineWellwater
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Registered: 10-18-2015
Posts: 67

Utena and Projecting Wanting Friends

(( Utena and Projecting Wanting Friends

Is it just me, or does Utena seem like during the length of her eponymous show she doesn't have any friends?  Oddly, I got this bewilderment when I re-watched the episode where Utena basically tells Anthy to make friends.  This was discordant to me, as it seems to both illustrate Utena's habit of projecting her subconscious anxieties onto someone else, and also be very possessive of Anthy (much like the other Duelists), but seems to be hoisting it off as "helping her shy friend."

Anyway, some other thoughts that I had, when I started to wonder about this.  First, Utena's the new transfer student.  As a standard trope of similar stories, the new student doesn't have any friends, yet earns them, one way or another, during the course of the show.  Anyway, being almost one-third of the way into RGU, as far as I can tell, the only friend Utena has is Wakaba.  And, that's more due to Wakaba having the guts and determination to stick around Utena… rather than Utena doing a lot to foster the friendship with Wakaba.

Next, Utena has no parents or siblings.  From the beginning of the show, we're told she's an orphan.  And… while Utena does witness many of the less friendly sibling interactions, she seems to delude herself into ignoring them, and only wishing she had a brother or sister as well.  Something else too, while everyone at Ohtori seems to know Utena, only Wakaba tends to hang out with her.

Another thing I noticed is that Utena doesn't seem to have any after school activities.  Everything she does, is done at school.  Basketball is played at school.  The duels are at school.  Classwork, is all done at school.  She doesn't go to cram-sessions with anyone.  She isn't involved in  any clubs or organizations.  She doesn't seem to do anything else.  After school, she goes home, alarmingly by herself a number of times… and makes dinner… and goes to bed.  Lacking these activities greatly reduces her chances of meeting up with others.  Even Anthy has some after-school hobbies (some of which are healthier than others).  Shoot, at one point, Utena even mentions that Anthy is gone every weekend, which gives me the impression that Utena doesn't even go out during the weekends by herself.

For all intents and purposes, Utena also lives in the dormitory by herself.  So, she even lacks the opportunity for social interaction, and the chance to make new friends, by having people she can meet or run into in the dorms.  Worse, the only time she seems to be doing an activity that would grow new friends, is depressingly near the very end of the entire show.  So… during all the time she has at Ohtori, she gets and takes one opportunity to actually meet people.

In short... to me, it seems like Utena lacks friends the entire series, and she subconsciously realizes this.  She'll never admit it conciously, as she seems to delude herself by thinking the idolization she's receiving from her classmates is friendship… but her subconscious notices the shortcoming.

Now… later on she does start to get extra-curricular activities with Akio, and you can also make the case that her entire isolation is a machination from Akio… but, filtering out the Akio angle, it gives off the impression that Utena is starved for companionship, and she eventually realizes it.  As such, while she even mentions aloud to herself that Akio is trouble, she spends more and more time with him, because she has no one else to spend time with.  In other words, she's lonely.  And… Utena projects these thoughts onto Anthy, by stating to Anthy that she needs to go out and get more friends.

Does this make any sense?))

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#2 | Back to Top10-24-2015 11:14:37 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
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Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: Utena and Projecting Wanting Friends

Utena, at the beginning of the series, isn't as nearly self-sufficient or mature as she appears to be.

Wakaba pays more attention than her, is more outgoing and open, and Wakaba is... Wakaba. That should say something.

Then again, they're all young teens.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#3 | Back to Top10-24-2015 11:46:31 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Utena and Projecting Wanting Friends

CarolineWellwater wrote:

Anyway, some other thoughts that I had, when I started to wonder about this.  First, Utena's the new transfer student.  As a standard trope of similar stories, the new student doesn't have any friends, yet earns them, one way or another, during the course of the show.

There's a weird twist on this trope in SKU: Utena isn't a transfer student.  It's easy to mistake her for one.  She spends the first episode getting shown around, it seems, by Wakaba; she has to have the Student Council pointed out to her; the Student Council has to have her pointed out to them; and of course she is a transfer student in the manga.  But in the anime, this is explicitly not her first year at Ohtori.  (For instance, Whiplash McScaryFace asks her if she's going to continue wearing her weird uniform this year too.)  If Utena lacks friends, she can't even fall back on the excuse of being a transfer. emot-smile

Another thing I noticed is that Utena doesn't seem to have any after school activities.  Everything she does, is done at school.  Basketball is played at school.  The duels are at school.  Classwork, is all done at school.  She doesn't go to cram-sessions with anyone.  She isn't involved in  any clubs or organizations.  She doesn't seem to do anything else.  After school, she goes home, alarmingly by herself a number of times… and makes dinner… and goes to bed.

That does seem to be the case!  But we do see her hanging out with others sometimes -- with Miki and Nanami in the first episode of Miki's two-parter, for instance.  She doesn't seem awkward around them, and she's not anxious about going to Touga's party in the third episode, either; she just dislikes her dress.  I'm not sure whether Utena has many friends, but she seems reasonably socially fluent to me.  As DD points out, that's different from being a good friend.  Loosely speaking, SKU is the story of Utena trying to figure out how to be a good friend, which is why we see her oblivious to the feelings and needs of Anthy, Wakaba, Nanami, and pretty much everyone else.  emot-rolleyes

One reasonable conclusion, I think, is that when Utena tells Anthy that she needs to make friends, what she means is more like "you need to be more comfortable around people" or "you need to be more extroverted."  (Or "you need to be more like me.")  Your interpretation makes sense to me, from how little we see Utena actually hanging out with friends -- maybe Utena is indeed projecting some loneliness onto Anthy -- but if she is lonely, she is hiding it well.  Except over specific dramas like losing Anthy, I can't think of a time I saw loneliness in Utena's speech or body language.  Are you sure we aren't projecting the way we might feel in her circumstances onto her?  emot-wink

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#4 | Back to Top10-25-2015 02:16:49 AM

CarolineWellwater
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 10-18-2015
Posts: 67

Re: Utena and Projecting Wanting Friends

(( Hey satyreyes,

There's a weird twist on this trope in SKU: Utena isn't a transfer student.  It's easy to mistake her for one.  She spends the first episode getting shown around, it seems, by Wakaba; she has to have the Student Council pointed out to her; the Student Council has to have her pointed out to them; and of course she is a transfer student in the manga.

Now that you mention it, I did over look that, from episodes 1 and 2.  And, it makes sense, with the idea of her being a sophomore in all sorts of ways.  Still... in some ways, I think this still reinforces the idea of Utena wanting friends... or at least being isolated from the majority of the student body.  If, after a full year of being at the Academy, she still only really "knows" one person, that being Wakaba.  And, even that really wasn't from any effort on Utena's part.  Wakaba seems to do the vast majority of contact with Utena, and puts the most effort into their relationship.

That does seem to be the case!  But we do see her hanging out with others sometimes -- with Miki and Nanami in the first episode of Miki's two-parter, for instance.  She doesn't seem awkward around them, and she's not anxious about going to Touga's party in the third episode, either; she just dislikes her dress.  I'm not sure whether Utena has many friends, but she seems reasonably socially fluent to me.  As DD points out, that's different from being a good friend.  Loosely speaking, SKU is the story of Utena trying to figure out how to be a good friend, which is why we see her oblivious to the feelings and needs of Anthy, Wakaba, Nanami, and pretty much everyone else.

Well, you're right, again.  I had forgotten the masque ball from episode 3.  And, for that matter, Utena is invited to a number of the balls that the Student Council, and in particular Nanami, host.  However... I'm not as convinced she's terribly socially fluent. 

I think she understands that the rest of the student body sees her as some type of idol (due to her willingness to wear her Prince outfit as the most obvious sign), yet... she seems almost as awkward as Anthy at these dances.  She goes to them, and protects Anthy, and sort of mingles with Nanami, Miki, and Juri; yet, she doesn't really seem to mingle with the crowd much.  Or even mingle in any way that offers an ability to seem approachable.  She puts on a good face of being at the event... but doesn't really participate at it.  Often, I get the impression she keeps herself apart from everyone else without realizing it.  As if she's "going through the motions to make friends", but really doesn't understand or know how to do it, and has tricked herself into thinking that she's not doing anything incorrectly.  And, when she returns back to her dorm by herself, just accepts the results of being unable to approach anyone else.

Except over specific dramas like losing Anthy, I can't think of a time I saw loneliness in Utena's speech or body language.  Are you sure we aren't projecting the way we might feel in her circumstances onto her?

I don't think this is the case.  I think Utena is accepting of her isolation on the surface, and has a tremendous ability to beguile herself into thinking everything is okay.  I think she sees her actions, her ease of casualness with others, and her outwards comments as her ability to make friends; yet, part of her that is growing up notices that it isn't the case, but it just can't explain it or show it to the rest of herself.  To me, the best example of this was her duel with Wakaba. 

While Utena's verbal comments have her play it off as "I'm going to save you Wakaba", her facial expressions, her exasperation at not knowing what's upset Wakaba, her willingness to let Wakaba hair-wrangle her, and her un-willingness to draw her Sword of Dios show that Utena doesn't want to lose the one friend she has.  It also seems to be one of the times where Utena seems to be flat out ignoring Anthy, as Utena doesn't acknowledge any of Anthy's comments or subtle commands, and only moves to intercede herself between Wakaba and Anthy.  Anyway, it's a rare occurrence of Utena admitting to herself that she doesn't know what happened... instead of her normally projecting her wants / desires onto someone else to improve / better them.

Anyway, satyreyes thank you for the reply.  It gave me a lot more to think about. ))

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#5 | Back to Top10-25-2015 08:20:17 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Utena and Projecting Wanting Friends

CarolineWellwater wrote:

While Utena's verbal comments have her play it off as "I'm going to save you Wakaba", her facial expressions, her exasperation at not knowing what's upset Wakaba, her willingness to let Wakaba hair-wrangle her, and her un-willingness to draw her Sword of Dios show that Utena doesn't want to lose the one friend she has.  It also seems to be one of the times where Utena seems to be flat out ignoring Anthy, as Utena doesn't acknowledge any of Anthy's comments or subtle commands, and only moves to intercede herself between Wakaba and Anthy.  Anyway, it's a rare occurrence of Utena admitting to herself that she doesn't know what happened... instead of her normally projecting her wants / desires onto someone else to improve / better them.

Yeah, Utena is finally treating Wakaba the way you treat a friend in this scene.  She's still got no idea what's wrong, of course emot-biggrin  But at least she's trying to listen and be there.  I interpret Utena's motivations here a bit differently than you do.  Your feeling is that Utena goes to such extremes not to hurt Wakaba because Wakaba is Utena's only friend.  But that may be overreading the situation.  Utena is shocked and scared in this scene, not because her only friendship is at stake, but because she has suddenly realized that she doesn't know Wakaba at all.  This is how she frames her feelings to Wakaba at that moment:

Wakaba:  You, that girl [Anthy], the Student Council members... all of you look down on me.
Wakaba:  Without a care in the world, flaunting the power you all were born with!
Wakaba:  So, you all can so calmly...
Wakaba:  ...walk all over everyone else!
Utena:  Wakaba...
Utena:  Certainly, there are a lot of things I don't know,
Utena:  But I do know this for sure:
Utena:  You are my best friend.
Utena:  Just wait, and I'll save you now.

If Utena's state of mind here feels familiar, it's because this scene is foreshadowing the last few episodes of the show, where you can imagine Utena saying the very same words to Anthy.  That's this scene's primary job.  Scenes in SKU often do double duty, of course, and it's possible that we're also supposed to infer that Wakaba is Utena's only friend, that Utena is scared for herself and not just for Wakaba.  But I don't see any particular reason to think so.  Utena thinks she has plenty of friends.  And that's part of why Utena is so charming, at least to me: she thinks everyone is her friend, at least casually.  She extends her trust easily; she feels betrayal deeply yet can't hold a grudge at all; she thinks people are worth protecting even if she doesn't know them.  That's not all of what friendship is, but it's what friendship means to Utena at age fourteen, and by that standard she has as many friends as she has acquaintances.  Or at least, that's my read!

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#6 | Back to Top10-25-2015 12:48:57 PM

Nocturnalux
Qualified Duellist
From: Portugal
Registered: 09-10-2007
Posts: 741

Re: Utena and Projecting Wanting Friends

satyreyes wrote:

If Utena's state of mind here feels familiar, it's because this scene is foreshadowing the last few episodes of the show, where you can imagine Utena saying the very same words to Anthy.  That's this scene's primary job.  Scenes in SKU often do double duty, of course, and it's possible that we're also supposed to infer that Wakaba is Utena's only friend, that Utena is scared for herself and not just for Wakaba.  But I don't see any particular reason to think so.  Utena thinks she has plenty of friends.  And that's part of why Utena is so charming, at least to me: she thinks everyone is her friend, at least casually.  She extends her trust easily; she feels betrayal deeply yet can't hold a grudge at all; she thinks people are worth protecting even if she doesn't know them.  That's not all of what friendship is, but it's what friendship means to Utena at age fourteen, and by that standard she has as many friends as she has acquaintances.  Or at least, that's my read!

I see in Utena's easy acceptance of everyone as her friend something like a commentary on anime in general. It is a recurring theme, happens a lot in shounen but often oversteps into other genres, where the MC ends up befriending every single character, at times even including baddies who then become good guys, often with a simple exchange of words. A particular theme is the socially awkward character who will end up relating to the MC and then struggling to ask them to be friends only to have the MC go, "what are you talking about? We're already friends!" accompained by a bright smile.

These days we often have socially inept characters as the main so the troupe may not be as strong as it once was but it is still alive and well. I just saw it the other day in High School Musical, in an all-male cast, played by the book and with the added bursting into song that actually makes sense in-universe.

SKU is deconstructing this common theme along with one that very often comes along with it, in which the MC will blunder their way through a complex previous situation relating to one of the members of the cast and despite having no previous knowledge of it- at all- will managed to if not completely solve them then come very close. This includes estranged friends, siblings, etc. The MC will butt in, be told to mind their place and usually in a particularly emotional scene, be told that they understand nothing. But still, the MC will be rewarded. As for Utena...not so much.

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#7 | Back to Top10-25-2015 10:26:06 PM

Arale
Sunlit Gardener (Prelude)
From: collective human consciousness
Registered: 12-07-2014
Posts: 174
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Re: Utena and Projecting Wanting Friends

satyreyes wrote:

CarolineWellwater wrote:

Anyway, some other thoughts that I had, when I started to wonder about this.  First, Utena's the new transfer student.  As a standard trope of similar stories, the new student doesn't have any friends, yet earns them, one way or another, during the course of the show.

There's a weird twist on this trope in SKU: Utena isn't a transfer student.  It's easy to mistake her for one.  She spends the first episode getting shown around, it seems, by Wakaba; she has to have the Student Council pointed out to her; the Student Council has to have her pointed out to them; and of course she is a transfer student in the manga.  But in the anime, this is explicitly not her first year at Ohtori.  (For instance, Whiplash McScaryFace asks her if she's going to continue wearing her weird uniform this year too.)  If Utena lacks friends, she can't even fall back on the excuse of being a transfer. emot-smile

What's even weirder is that in the game, she IS stated to be a transfer student by the council - albeit, one who's been here for a bit longer than Game Protagonist. It seems that even people working on the franchise got confused about this detail.


im a shadow play girl irl

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#8 | Back to Top10-26-2015 12:18:43 PM

Yams
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From: Crystal Millenium
Registered: 02-13-2007
Posts: 973

Re: Utena and Projecting Wanting Friends

Honestly I think it's more just a case of an extroverted/ outgoing person thinking that you have to be around people and have friends to be happy/ normal. In my experience people who are neither shy nor introverted have a hard time understanding people who are - I don't mean this is a negative sense, just that they feel bad when they see you sitting alone because to them, sitting alone = sad lonely feels. So I don't think it's anything more complicated than Utena naively assuming Anthy being by herself is a 'bad' thing that she must 'fix' and 'save' Anthy from. It could be just that it speaks to me on a very personal level but that's my interpretation.


http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/YamPuff/im%20holllowz_zpsx9ddh2gp.png~original

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#9 | Back to Top10-26-2015 06:09:53 PM

gpink
Eternal Castellan
Registered: 11-21-2009
Posts: 269

Re: Utena and Projecting Wanting Friends

In the manga Utena is also described as a transfer student.

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#10 | Back to Top10-28-2015 11:19:28 PM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
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Re: Utena and Projecting Wanting Friends

This is really interesting, I've never thought of it before...but I incline toward CarolineWellwater's view.

Utena is pretty isolated at the start of the show.  She doesn't really have friends, other than Wakaba.  And I have always felt something was off about calling what Utena has with Wakaba "friendship", even though the show makes such a big point of doing so on many occasions.  It always seems like Wakaba wanted to be Utena's friend and Utena just didn't mind, not that Utena deeply reciprocates Wakaba's interest and affection.

And while Utena is never uncomfortable with socializing per se, neither is she portrayed as an extrovert--as someone who seeks out the stimulation of contact with others.  She doesn't exactly start conversations with other people for the sake of it.  When adoring crowds surround her, she doesn't take the opportunity to meet them, she just sort of acknowledges them at most and goes on about her business.

One of Utena's faults (as I've always seen it) is a sort of selfishness.  Her stubborn insistence that she knows best, even when it's clear that she's missing 9/10ths of a situation and having that fact pointed out to her.  Throughout the show, even when she realizes she doesn't understand, she judges.  She has a lot of trouble grokking the feelings, motivations, and actions of people who don't feel, want, or act the way Utena herself would.

These personality traits would align with the observation that Utena might be a bit of a loner.  Someone who isn't deeply interested in other people because she's too preoccupied with herself to really see other people clearly.  Someone who may not be physically isolated, but isn't truly intimate with anyone.  Someone who doesn't really know how have emotional intimacy.

It puts another slant on her obtuseness about Anthy "needing friends", one that I find more realistic--Utena isn't just a know-it-all, she's seeing herself in Anthy.  It explains Utena's attachment to Anthy, too.  Utena actually feels close to Anthy in a way she hasn't ever been close to anyone else.  (Romance explains that too, but I've clearly expressed in the past my meh on that.)

But, then, I assume Wakaba has other friends with very little to support it.  If we were to ask, we might find that Utena's got hobbies and acquaintances it's not important to show us and the creators had notions of how she fills the hours she's "off camera".  She's well-enough known as an athlete to be asked to help out the basketball team in the first episode, after all.


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#11 | Back to Top10-30-2015 10:15:40 AM

CarolineWellwater
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 10-18-2015
Posts: 67

Re: Utena and Projecting Wanting Friends

(( Hey all,

I was thinking about something rhyaniwyn said, where she mentioned that perhaps it was intentional that we never see Utena doing stuff not-story related.  And… I'm not sure if that's the case.  For me, Ikuhara seems almost Kubrick-ian in his extreme attention to detail.  He leaves the interpretation of the details up to the audience, but his focus on them is absolute.  As such, for me, the lack of showing Utena having an outside social life is supposed to be there.  Ikuhara didn't exclude it, he purposely illustrated its absence by not illustrating it.

As a comparison, in Persona 3, Persona 3 - Portable, Persona 4, Persona 4: The Golden, and Persona 4: The Animation, great pains taken to show the cast outside of school doing stuff, and getting to know each other even more.  They go to work, they have cram-study sessions, go on dates, go places, disagree, get in trouble, hang out, talk, chat, argue, do things by themselves, do stuff during the holidays, all sorts of stuff that people do when becoming friends.   The whole balancing act of limited time yet unlimited possibilities shows how the friendships between all of them grow.  And, overall, you probably could remove most of them, and still be able to rework the story with only minor adjustments.  Yet… these episodes aren't padding or filler.  It's a different way of showing someone growing up… by opening up to others.

The major time that this happens, for me, in Utena is near the end of the series, where everyone is playing badminton.  Which, also seems important.  Why?  Well… a lot of people play badminton, but who really knows the rules to the sport.  And, if you watch them, they're not really playing badminton… they're just lazily hitting the shuttle around.  Overall, it just looks like they're hanging out.  They could be playing video games, tossing a baseball, sitting around watching TV, at the mall eating burgers, and the effect would be the same.  It is a unique  moment where Utena, Juri, Miki, and Nanami all open up a little, and try to become closer.  With Ikuhara only including an episode like this once, it finishes off the entire aspect of showing Utena doesn't really have friends… but wants to have them.

Anyway, just something I was thinking about at work, based off some of rhyaniwyn's comments.

All, thank you very much for the thoughts and discussion.  It has given me a lot to think about. You guys are freaking sweet! ))

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#12 | Back to Top11-03-2015 05:13:20 PM

CarolineWellwater
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 10-18-2015
Posts: 67

Re: Utena and Projecting Wanting Friends

(( Hey all,

I found that this topic had been brought up before.  So... I figured I'd link to it as reference.

http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=2520

There are more thoughts to be found in there.  ))

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