This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top11-07-2007 05:10:37 PM

KissingT.Kiryuu
Hentai Hero!!!
From: Somewhere and Nowhere
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4090
Website

**ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

I just read this in a journal on DA. let me share this with you. I DID NOT WRITE THIS!!

:star: If you are a fan of anime, please read this... :star:


Anyways, along the grape vine, we wound up hearing some things that are kind of disturbing to think about, so I'd like to pass this on to you guys, in the hopes that maybe, just maybe, you'll take them to heart and try to change something (I know I have already).

The anime industry is nearing collapse.

What does this mean? It means that companies will stop buying the licenses to stuff, stop translating it, stop merchandising it, stop all of that. We will not have access to anime as readily as we do now, it will not be on TV constantly. It will have been considered a "fad," and that be that.

Basically, it does mean the end of anime (imported from Japan, at least). And that means the end of Japanese anime all around, because the US market is the only thing holding up the Japanese market at this time. If we weren't so "into" anime, it wouldn't be anywhere near as prolific as it is over there. (most anime being produced is actually targeted at the US market at this time... weird, no?)

Many people in the industry are giving it a 2-3 year remaining life, at the rate we're going.

Why is this happening, you may ask?

The reason is one I scoffed at in the past, and figured it couldn't impact it at all, if anything, it generates huge amounts of hype, and that is it. Had I not heard it from people I trust to tell me the truth of the matter (mainly, because their jobs rely on the industry staying strong), I probably would still feel that way.

But, doing research for a business I was planning on opening, I'm starting to see the truth of the matter. I'm probably going to scrap my business plan, or at least just turn it in for the class and not pursue it because of this.

Really people, what is stranging the anime industry is fansubbing.

Now, before I get attacked with pitchforks, please read this through. There isn't an issue with fansubbing something that isn't released here, but once it becomes licensed, then there is a huge problem.

More than 80% of people who watch anime watch it on YouTube, or download it, and never, ever pay for it. That means the original creators never get paid, the licensors never get paid, the artists never get paid, the voice actors are getting paid next-to-nothing, and what insentive does that give people to make ... anything? It is a job, after all, and the end goal is to make money. Do you know what companies do when they're not making money doing something? They quit doing it.

This is what we're in danger of having happen really, really soon.

Now, you may say that you can't afford to go buy anime. Fine, whatever. I joined NetFlix, and I rent my anime. But, when I find something I really like, and I know I'm going to watch over an over again, I save up and I buy it. Seriously, after my tuition, I probably make less than the average 15 year old does. You think that's untrue? I survive off of about $60 a month, after I pay my tuition bills.

Just because you are a fan of Naruto/Bleach/Inuyasha/whatever, doesn't give you the right to just download it, and never, ever pay anyone for anything.

What I am trying to say is, please be aware that what you are doing if you just download things is affecting this industry. A prime example is the one company that I have major respect for, Geneon, is gone. Kaput. No more.


This upsets me, because Geneon was the one company I could trust for high-quality translations of things, and holds licenses to most of my favorite anime ever, including Gankutsuou, Hellsing Ultimate, Samurai Champloo, Lupin the 3rd, R.O.D., and Lain. They did one hell of a translation job, the best in the anime translation business. And now, they're gone, partially because it's such a competitive market with incredibly low sales, and partially because ADV screwed them over.

In the manga world, all of the small manga distributors are almost dead; the smart one's have signed on with Tokyopop. And they're putting out so many bad translations of series it's not even funny, just to try to make some money on the market. That is why there has been the sudden flood of manga in the bookstores.

Companies can take one of two routes at this point - force feed us whatever anime they think will be popular, and hope for the best (i.e. never licensing odd anime they don't think will be successful), or keep putting out the huge amounts, but cut back costs on US voice actors, good translators, directors, etc.

I'm sure by now, most of you have stopped reading, going "yeah, yeah, whatever, I'm not paying $30 for a DVD I can get for free". But, that is the attitude that will kill it in the end, and if you don't try to do something to help, you'll have no one to blame but yourselves when it goes back to Pokemon being the only thing you can find on TV that is remotely anime-related.

Anyone here complain about the limited releases of... say... the Full Metal Alchemist movie? How only like 45 movie theatres got it, and that was for a "one-night-only" sort of thing? How many of you actually went? And drove for hours? Which do you think would make more of an impact with an industry - sold out theatres with people coming from miles away to see an anime movie, or the medicore turn out's that they got, because most people said "meh, too far away to drive, so I'm just going to wait for my download to finish."

... and that is why I'm not opening my manga cafe after all. I don't trust that the industry will be around long enough for me to establish myself, and I'm starting to think people wouldn't pay a couple of bucks an hour to sit and read/watch whatever. And you can bet I'm bitter about it.

So. There is my public service annoucement for the moment. Please, at least take some time to think about it, and evaluate if you really care if anime sticks around for the next few years, or if you'd really like it to be this prolific longer.

Take it or leave it, it just has to be said. If you even remotly agree, consider doing this:
- Once an anime is licensed, stop downloading it
- If that is too much to ask for, if you really like a series, save up and buy it

Don't consider yourself a "fan" of an show if you haven't put anything back to it, to show the licensor's you're interested in their retaining it, and not cutting it or cutting back on their production values for it.

I'm sure so many of you are going to complain about the "poor translation/voice acting jobs in the US DVD releases" - but I suggest you don't do it here on my page, unless you're ready to get in a row about it, and survived early translations of series wayyyyy back in the day, where a DVD box set cost you $250. If you were part of that category, then maybe we can have a civil discussion.

DISCUSS AND CRY! emot-frown

edit- Found this too... http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/1998-08-09

Last edited by KissingT.Kiryuu (11-07-2007 07:47:11 PM)


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#2 | Back to Top11-07-2007 05:21:56 PM

Nilamarthiel
The Icon Icon
From: Northern Michigan
Registered: 02-05-2007
Posts: 3972
Website

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

This is certainly why the WGA is striking right now. They aren't getting enough money, with this New Media stuff. The writers aren't getting any extra money for the downloads. From what I can see, this is what would happen to the members of the WGA if they weren't striking.

Personally, I'm not too torn up about this, because really, there aren't many animes that interest me anymore. Utena is the only one that strikes a chord with me and stays with me in my soul. Also, Amazon.com always makes things available. emot-wink

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#3 | Back to Top11-07-2007 05:27:52 PM

KissingT.Kiryuu
Hentai Hero!!!
From: Somewhere and Nowhere
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4090
Website

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

Im kinda like that too but, if dubbing doesn't continue then if you saw something that is in japan and in the works for dubbing how could we ever see it here?!


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#4 | Back to Top11-07-2007 05:35:59 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6031
Website

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

They've been saying this for years. That doesn't mean it won't happen, but they have been saying it since I started watching anime.

Frankly, with the quality of the anime that's churned out for the american masses to consume, I can't say I'd cry over it. Anything I've seen that's been made after about 2003 or so has bored me out of my mind. Yeah, I am knocking shows like Naruto and Inu-Yasha, because they struck me about the same as anything I could watch on television. And, well, I don't watch tv because it's mindless, boring, and terrible. Every so often, you get a good one, but at this point, with the amount of crap swamping the market, it's just not worth sifting through. I'm not going to bother watching MariMite or ParaKiss, even though a lot of people say they're good, because I heard that about Naruto and Furuba and FY and Vandread and a million other shows that people said were good. Manga is even worse this way. There is good, innovative, thought provoking stuff out there... but why would I want to waste my time wading through the reams of boring, relentless tripe that's only meant to make the fangirls squeal?

I can't even say it's because of voice acting or visuals or whatever else, either, because we all know SKU has some of the worst animation in history. That doesn't bother me. And voice work? Well, the only dub I've ever liked was the Trigun dub, and japanese voice work never bothers me because even if I don't like the voice, I like the sound of the language. What really pisses me off is that somewhere along the way the good stories disappeared. And if it continues that way, I'll continue not to watch or buy at all. I'm not going to waste my money on supporting a studio that puts out stories that bore me... but I don't have a single anime rip I didn't go out and buy after.

Fans support the good stuff. Fans pay for the good stuff, even if they can get it for free, because they like it that much. The 'fad' here is caused by putting too much money into producing products that are disposable to people-- if it's disposable, no one's going to love it enough to buy it.


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#5 | Back to Top11-07-2007 06:02:04 PM

mazoboom
The Boom King
From: New Orleans
Registered: 09-08-2007
Posts: 450
Website

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

This sounds exactly like the FUD the record industry's been giving us for years.  I want a source for numbers like "more than 80% of people who watch anime watch it on YouTube, or download it, and never, ever pay for it."  It's been shown that people will buy things and it's the minority of people who are pirates.  It may be slightly more skewed for the anime industry, I'll give them that, because of all the fan love of fansubbing.  But I would guess that fansubbing does more to create interest and the series make money that way.  For example, I never would have bought Haruhi Suzumiya without fansubs, and I never would have bought Utena without illegally downloading it first.  Becuase I wouldn't have known how good they were.

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#6 | Back to Top11-07-2007 06:15:53 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2925

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

I feel like this is one of few industries that could stand a bit of an oligopoly, a few US anime companies handling everything. The most basic of Economics laws states that if you oversaturate a market. people are likely to buy less of it. I think 4 or 5 companies would be ideal: ADV, Funimation, VIZ, Geneon if they get upright again, and some other company I forgot.  Manga should work the same way.


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It's so far and out of sight.
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#7 | Back to Top11-07-2007 07:13:02 PM

Imaginary Bad Bug
Revolutionary
From: Connecticut, USA
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2171
Website

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

Well, the ANN op/ed you linked is nearly a decade old, and the US anime industry is nothing like it was then...  the dub quality debate will go on forever.

Also, I don't buy the whole R1 'sky is falling' argument yet.  Yes, we just lost Geneon, but rumor has it they are seeking an arrangement like Kadokawa has with Bandai.  That's how Haruhi got over here.

Anyway, let them cry wolf and act all Chicken Little.  Anime is, always has been, and always will be a niche market (not unlike foreign films in general), and those that support it will continue to do so, and the companies that work to make it available to us here will do so in the way most beneficial to everyone involved.

So yeah, call me a skeptic on the whole "OH NOEZ TEH ANIME IZ GONE!" panic attack going around the internet...


And this isn't aimed at you, KTK, it's aimed at the movement of that sector of people who think the anime apocalypse is nigh.

Last edited by Imaginary Bad Bug (11-07-2007 07:15:04 PM)


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#8 | Back to Top11-07-2007 07:38:13 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
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Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

Not to derail things too much, but the writing really strikes me the same as chain emails. There's a difference between "Here's why you shouldn't download fansubs" and "If you download fansubs you're killing anime." The second one might be more effective, I don't know, but personally it turns me right off.


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#9 | Back to Top11-07-2007 07:44:17 PM

KissingT.Kiryuu
Hentai Hero!!!
From: Somewhere and Nowhere
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4090
Website

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

Imaginary Bad Bug wrote:

And this isn't aimed at you, KTK, it's aimed at the movement of that sector of people who think the anime apocalypse is nigh.

I don't see why it would be aimed at me. Im not the one who wrote it. Just sharing the rumor.


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#10 | Back to Top11-07-2007 07:45:34 PM

OnionPrince
Covert Diarist
From: Nagoya
Registered: 10-28-2007
Posts: 876

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

KissingTKiryuu made some very valid points, and I think that the anime/manga industry is at very least in a precarious position.

The main problem is an economic one. To use a personal example, I originally got into TV because I was hoping to do translating, subbing and dubbing. I found out the hard way that there's simply no money in that line of work. The vast majority of translators and other localization specialists work under contract for pitiful sums and have no job security. If the publisher cancels the release, or drops it after one season, or simply gets no new material in for a while, you're out of work.

It's not necessarily the publishers being greedy. They'd probably pay more if their product made more money. It's just that anime is a niche market everywhere outside of Japan, and they frequently have to take chances with niche series (like Utena) in that market. And even in Japan, the ani/manga market will decline as the average population grows older. (Despite my best efforts, no one's having babies over there... emot-tongue)

But please don't give up your dream just yet, KTK! I've had to let go of too many of my own dreams due to circumstances beyond my control, and it's sad to see others do that. Your manga cafe sounds like a great idea, and there still might be hope for the industry. Advancements in technology are making drawing and animating easier and cheaper than ever, so the industry could make a real turnaround some day. Who knows?

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#11 | Back to Top11-07-2007 07:54:18 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2925

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

Um, Onion Prince? KTK didn't write that.


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It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#12 | Back to Top11-07-2007 09:13:00 PM

OnionPrince
Covert Diarist
From: Nagoya
Registered: 10-28-2007
Posts: 876

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

D'oh! emot-redface That's what I get for skimming the forums in between tasks at work. Despite my apparent lack of reading comprehension, I'd like to think my point still stands.

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#13 | Back to Top11-07-2007 11:54:42 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

I doubt that they would abandon anime altogether as they used to inport anime and rescript it to make it more appealing to English speaking audiences, the more recent tend up til now has been to try and keep as much of the Japaneseness of an anime as possible because more fans have been demanding it.

If worse comes to worse, US and Canadian companies will revert back to only getting animes that they believe will appeal to the general cartoon fans and most likely see the return to the scripting like they did back in the 80s and before while hard-core anime fans who love their fansub animes will continue getting copies from Japanese TV and DVDs and subtitling them.

The main people this will affect will be those who want to either watch an English dub of the show (I enjoy watching a good dub myself/ bad dubs can GAFM!) and anyone who likes to watch a high quality subtitle on a big screen TV instead of a lower quality one window on their PC/Laptop.

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#14 | Back to Top11-08-2007 12:47:42 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

Tamago wrote:

The main people this will affect will be those who want to either watch an English dub of the show (I enjoy watching a good dub myself/ bad dubs can GAFM!) and anyone who likes to watch a high quality subtitle on a big screen TV instead of a lower quality one window on their PC/Laptop.

Well, these days fansub-episodes sometimes actually feature larger and sharper image than the offical DVD releases, with the 720p transmissions and all...

And anime industry isn't going to break at least because of me; I watch considerable numbers of fansubs but anything that I like ends up on my to buy-list. Frankly, I doubt that I'd ever had bought anime if it wasn't for fansubs. When I need to order stuff from overseas, I get frugal about things I can't check beforehand, unless I have a golden lead. And is there anyone who believes that Haruhi could have become a phenomenon in the West without the fansub community?
As for dubs, they could dissapear entirely for all I care and the only difference that would make for me is that I'd no longer have to go through the audio menu every time I watch a DVD.

And I very much doubt the situation is as bad as they let on. They've never had as big publicity or follower-base in the West and I should imagine that a fair number of them, even if they download a lot of the stuff they're watching, are still buying the things that they love and support.


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#15 | Back to Top11-08-2007 03:46:34 AM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

I cannot claim to have supported anime too much as I have only spent maybe $250 in buying anime ($90 of which was the Utena series and Utena movie) and about $300 in hiring it in the last 3 years, but I have certainly supported manga as I have forked out about $4,000 in the same period.

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#16 | Back to Top11-08-2007 10:36:23 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

Wait a second.  So the worst-case scenario is that U.S. companies stop licensing anime, meaning that animesuki can resume carrying good series and not cutting them off halfway through because some licenser got interested?

I can live with that.

But anyway, I'd like to second the request for sources on those statistics.  Very dubious.  We all know that [adultswim] has been incredibly influential in the proliferation of anime in the last several years, with a high viewership.  Now, first of all, I'm guessing the Cartoon Network doesn't download its anime illegally, so the licensers are making money from them.  Broadcast rights are expensive.  Second, maybe I'm wrong, but the crowd who watches Inu Yasha and Wolf's Rain doesn't strike me as the same crowd who messes around with BitTorrent.  Those folks are buying their anime if they're not watching it on TV.

Mind you, more people buying anime legally could only help the industry.  I own Utena, Kino no Tabi, Ghost in the Shell, and a few other favorites legally.  But the threat of the End of Anime is not going to compel me to pay for bad series.  And the fact that there remains a large, active niche anime market in the U.S. guarantees that even if televised anime somehow goes under, we will always have ready access via the Internet.

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#17 | Back to Top11-08-2007 11:58:30 AM

Mylene
Fighting Evil By Moonlight
From: Next to Paradox
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 3704

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

satyreyes wrote:

Wait a second.  So the worst-case scenario is that U.S. companies stop licensing anime, meaning that animesuki can resume carrying good series and not cutting them off halfway through because some licenser got interested?

Actually, I think the true worst case scenario would be fewer anime in general even being created.  The licensing fees paid by American companies like Funimation as well as financial involvement with the original productions (some licensrs are also involved in financially backing series before they even hit the air in Japan) help pay for the anime being created.  If that money dries up because NA licensors drop out of the market due to poor sales, the Japanese side of the market will also take a hit now that it's gotten used to having NA money in the mix.  And it wouldn't necessarily be that there would just be a few, really good anime available.  Rather, I think it's the popular (but not necessarily good) series that would continue being made, whereas shows such as Haibane Renmei or Kino's Journey would find it an even harder path to traverse due to lack of funding.

That's just a little speculation on my part from what I've gathered in the 50 billion fansub debates I've perused on ANN over the past couple of years.

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#18 | Back to Top11-08-2007 01:18:05 PM

purplepolecat
Atlantean Singer
From: Vancouver, B.C.
Registered: 03-26-2007
Posts: 570

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

I don't think that declining revenue from the R1 market is significant enough to affect the production of new anime in Japan. The worst case is that R1 distributors get more conservative about licensing obscure titles, which is a shame but not the end of the world.

I think the parallel with the music industry is a good one, because both industries are seeing the end of a long period of enormous growth. Anime is still orders of magnitude more popular in R1 than 15 or 20 years ago. Cons increase their numbers every year. There's more anime on TV. People may have adjusted their DVD buying habits a little, but I don't think this is more than a blip.

I can see distributors going one of two ways with new DVD releases to get sales back on track:

1) Release premium editions of single DVD releases, with bonus material and gifts. I paid full price for the first season of Black Lagoon DVDs partly because it's a kick ass series, partly because it came with a metal case, dog tags and metallic postcard art. Adds a lot of value that can't be downloaded, but probably not too expensive to manufacture.*

2) Bare bones DVD release with subtitles only, released at the same time here as in Japan, fairly cheap. The English dubbing is hugely expensive, AND takes months to complete. A lot of people download the fansubs just because they don't want to wait months for the official release, they want to see it when Japan sees it.

*sad footnote to Black Lagoon : it's distributed by Geneon, so season 2 release is postponed indefinitely. So I dled the fansub. I would have gladly paid for the DVD, but I'm not waiting a year.


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#19 | Back to Top11-08-2007 03:44:21 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2925

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

purplepolecat wrote:

2) Bare bones DVD release with subtitles only, released at the same time here as in Japan, fairly cheap. The English dubbing is hugely expensive, AND takes months to complete. A lot of people download the fansubs just because they don't want to wait months for the official release, they want to see it when Japan sees it.

Actually, Media Blasters is doing that now with Princess Princess, Gakuen Heaven, and quite a few other titles.  There's several other distributors heading in that direction too.

A random article at AnimeNation wrote:

A cost of $10,000 to dub an average 25 minute anime TV episode has been tossed about in American anime community discussion. At today's expenses, $10,000 is actually around the low end of dubbing cost. Naturally, dubbing costs vary by ADR studio, talent, number of actors needed, and amount of dialogue to be dubbed. But using the low end estimate of $10,000 per episode, a 26 episode series would cost $260,000 to dub. If a distributor releases that series on 7 DVD volumes at a $15 wholesale cost per volume, the distributor has to sell roughly 2,500 copies of each disc just to recover the dubbing cost. Regrettably, there are numerous anime series released in America which don't sell even 2,500 copies per disc. Dubbing does increase an anime DVDs' market viability, but it's beginning to seem as though an optional English dub does not attract enough additional consumers to justify the expense of dubbing. The expense of dubbing can be the difference between a domestic release being profitable or losing money.

Now I don't guarantee the accuracy of the numbers, but I doubt they're completely off.

Last edited by Raven Nightshade (11-08-2007 03:46:53 PM)


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#20 | Back to Top11-08-2007 05:00:32 PM

Mylene
Fighting Evil By Moonlight
From: Next to Paradox
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 3704

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

Raven Nightshade wrote:

purplepolecat wrote:

2) Bare bones DVD release with subtitles only, released at the same time here as in Japan, fairly cheap. The English dubbing is hugely expensive, AND takes months to complete. A lot of people download the fansubs just because they don't want to wait months for the official release, they want to see it when Japan sees it.

Actually, Media Blasters is doing that now with Princess Princess, Gakuen Heaven, and quite a few other titles.  There's several other distributors heading in that direction too.

ImaginAsian is going one step further and doing print on demand on DVD-R media for their releases.  Talk about bare bones.  Which reminds me, I need to start picking up Nobody's Boy Remy and Cat's Eye sometime soon.

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#21 | Back to Top11-09-2007 12:02:14 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

I've got to say... the person who wrote this seems to have no clue. I'm completely with satyreyes on the "watching TV" point, and even with my minimal exposure to Japanese culture, I can see how horrifically arrogant it to say that the exports to the US are the only thing keeping a form of mainstream Japanese entertainment going.

Still, it bears thinking about. Thanks for sharing it with us, KTK.

Last edited by ShatteredMirror (11-09-2007 12:04:00 AM)


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#22 | Back to Top11-09-2007 03:09:40 AM

Lissa
Miki Molester
From: in front of a computer
Registered: 10-15-2007
Posts: 38
Website

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

You know, I find it quite funny that this note is published at about the same time as the Screen Writers Guild is going on strike for, essentially, the same thing that's being "blamed" for the "collapse of the Anime industry." I'm not saying that it may not be true, but it is very ironic...very ironic indeed.

However, unless the entire manga industry goes belly up (which I don't foresee happening...it'd be like saying that the entire romance novel industry is going to disappear because of online porn), I don't see the anime industry going belly up. It's almost like saying that Disney is going to file for bankrupcy. I'm with those that want to see some concrete evidence, not just heresay.

Granted, fansubs and pirated series are a large problem, but that's in the television industry in general. It's not just anime. I can proudly say that all the anime, manga, and movies I own aren't pirated. Mostly because, if I wanted to download a movie or TV show, I'd be here for three straight days thanks to my wonderful Internet connection.


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#23 | Back to Top11-09-2007 06:45:59 AM

Mylene
Fighting Evil By Moonlight
From: Next to Paradox
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 3704

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

Lissa wrote:

Granted, fansubs and pirated series are a large problem, but that's in the television industry in general. It's not just anime.

Comparing the itty bitty anime market to the extremely large television market isn't exactly accurate though.  Anime is a niche.  A few series went 'mainstream,' but it was mainstream by anime standards, not by overall television standards (except Pokemon, but I try not to remember that particular series :p)  With companies posting fairly large losses and places like Geneon having to totally shut down (hopefully only temporarily), I think that says anime is being affected by something a heck of a lot more than television as a whole.  I personally think a fair amount of it is due to the glut in the anime market with the really bad being licensed with the really good that's causing part of the problem.  While I'm happy that also pulls in good, 'niche' (I'm using that more to refer to thinking anime rather than the moe niche, etc) series that wouldn't have otherwise been licensed, it also pulls in some truly awful series too.  There just aren't that many anime fans in the first place, and I think quite a few of the new fans are going straight to piracy rather than purchasing DVDs--especially since unlike with music, there isn't really much of a paid, official download alternative for anime (yeah, there are some on iTunes, but they're typically dub-only and not released until well after the Japanese run).  Of the 6 anime fans I've met in the past two years, only one purchases any anime.  The rest pirate, and pirate exclusively.  One, if he likes the series, will buy bootleg merchandise.  Yes, that's only five people, however, the American anime scene isn't all that big to begin with.  That's not to mention the 20 or 30 people I know online that exclusively download anime, licensed or not.  Those small numbers start stacking up when you're discussing a niche market.

I personally believe bootlegs play a pretty hefty role in the downturn the anime market is facing (and yes, it is facing a downturn--CPM is virtually gone, Geneon's keeling over, ADV's doing some restructuring--which will hopefully fair well, Funimation is posting losses [although still within their earnings projections, so that's good]) given how rampant they are on Amazon Marketplace and the like, and the people who shop there often don't know any better and don't necessarily care either.  But I do think the bigger problem is that while anime is still talked about as much in its niche as it was a few years ago, a smaller portion of that niche is actually buying anything.  Licensors might look and see, "Wow, everyone's talking about this Rozen Maiden, let's get it!"  They release it, with a pretty velvet box, nice DVD covers, and what happens?  No one buys it.  I do not know the source of the rumor, but it's been pretty widely stated that Rozen Maiden was a flop in sales.  All the talk, the hype, and the 4chan memes, and hardly anyone bought it.  It's currently slated not to be completed, either.  I have the whole first season, but since Traumend isn't going to be completed as of yet (if ever), I held off buying the rest, as I don't want an incomplete season (and I didn't like Traumend all that well anyway...but I'd still like to own the whole story.)  Same could be said of When They Cry - Higurashi which was everywhere on the net, but appears to have sold rather poorly.  And you're not going to get concrete numbers for sales.  Those are well-kept secrets that can be purchased from firms that calculate them (namely Nielson's Videoscan), but aren't widely available otherwise aside from reps on AoD mentioning that sales weren't as good as predicted, or the recent report of Funimation posting losses over the same quarter last year (although some of that does have to do with changing HQ locations.)

Perhaps it's Geneon's fault for taking a chance on these series and their fans.  Maybe it should have done a better job advertising (although for both series it ran short marketing "guess the license" campaigns over at ANN to garner attention).  Who knows?  But there sure was a hell of a lot of buzz when these series were in fansub form, and then suddenly no one was around to buy them when they came out on DVD.  Do I think the anime market in NA is going to disappear?  No.  I think it's going to shrink some though (and unfortunately, when that happens, it's going to be the definite money makers like shounen series rather than things like Kino's Journey that will likely be licensed).  Do I think fansubs are part of the problem?  Yes.  The whole problem?  No.  But they're definitely part of it.  When over 1/2 of the fans I know in "RL" do not actually buy the product (or even support anime by getting merchandise like posters or figurines), that's not a good sign.  There's a product out there, often a very good product, and its not getting paid for in quite a few cases.  And yes, this could affect Japan.  At this point, the creators of anime are used to the flow of money brought it from the series being licensed by America.  This money in turn is used to make more series.  If that money starts drying up, there is going to be a change in Japan.  Will everyone willingly take a big pay cut?  Or will just fewer series be made?  Even if this is just a downturn  in the American market (I really don't believe the market is going to implode and give birth to squirrels anytime soon), it will have some effect on Japan, even if it's only for a short while until they get used to not having that extra flow of money into the market.

Am I anti-fansub?  Not at all.  I'm watching Dennou Coil right now.  However, I do think fansubs are starting to impact the North American anime market in ways that it didn't before.  It's starting to become a negative rather than positive impact (before, it really was advertising).  If you don't care about getting unpirated anime, it's no skin off your nose, but if you like to financially support your hobby, it's going to start being more difficult for at least awhile until the licensors figure out how to make a profit with the market in the state that it currently is.

Also, the manga and anime markets are pretty separate beings.  Manga is still doing pretty darn well, but even its facing a few downturns.  Not all anime fans are manga fans, and not all manga fans are anime fans.  Except for Viz, manga companies tend to stick strictly to manga, and anime companies stick strictly to anime.  ADV's released a few manga, and boy that's been like pulling teeth (hiatus status for most of their series for a couple of years, etc.)  Tokyopop released a few anime, but at this point they've turned to Funimation to take care of the anime series they've licensed, and have allowed the first half of Marmalade Boy expire (which sucks, I was looking forward to buying the Funi release of that...)  If either market goes belly up, the other will probably be affected in some way, but they aren't linked so that if one goes the other does too.  So the shaky anime market could go under even with a fairly strong manga market out there.  I still want to reiterate I don't think that's going to happen, but if it did, I don't think they're completely linked.

Anyway, that's enough ramblings from me. emot-tongue  The anime market is facing some serious challenges right now, and as someone who does enjoy owning my anime legally (as well as checking out some series on fansubs), I do hope the licensors are able to figure out some way to continue forward with a wide variety of anime available.  I do not want to go back to the days when the anime selection was dominated by DBZ and mecha anime.  Yuck. emot-tongue

Last edited by Cerise (11-09-2007 08:32:16 AM)

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#24 | Back to Top11-09-2007 09:49:37 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

I watch fansubbed mecha anime. emot-tongue

But Code Geass has yet to be released in the US, and I don't speak Japanese.


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#25 | Back to Top11-10-2007 01:56:41 AM

Lissa
Miki Molester
From: in front of a computer
Registered: 10-15-2007
Posts: 38
Website

Re: **ALERT FOR ANIME FANS!**

I don't doubt what you're saying at all, Cerise. I'm lucky I have three real-life friends who watch anime. One of them will ONLY buy licensed subs. In fact, she's the one that I got all my VHS anime from: she gave them to me when she moved so she'd have less to lug around. One out and out admits she buys fansubs and pirated series because she can't afford the regular series. And the third one? I don't know. I have a DVD he bought that I never got back to him before he left the place we worked at, and when he came back, he already had a new copy of it. However, he talks all the time about going to CrunchyRoll.com. However, from my understanding, they show fansubs, but the moment someone gets the license, they pull it.

Oh, and let's not forget the "Official Bootleg Edition" of Sailormoon StarS that Amazon.com had listed a while back. XD

I guess what I'm saying is that, yeah, that note does bring up some good points, but I smell a lot of bullshit in it, too. It's almost like someone took these stats, saw what's going on with the SWG, and went "Oh, noes!!! We're doomed!!! It's the end of anime!!!!!" and took it over the deep end.


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