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satyreyes wrote:

* What was Shiori doing at Ruka's locker?
* "That wasn't my sword."  If the sword in Ruka's locker wasn't Ruka's sword, whose was it?
* Had someone actually been polishing Ruka's sword, or was Ruka just setting Shiori up by saying so?

For one thing, I don't think that Shiori was dating Ruka just to piss Juri off. She tried the same thing three years ago, and not only did it leave her feeling even more miserable than before, but she had been wrong about Juri's feelings for that boy. I doubt that she's going to jump to the same conclusion just because Juri was glaring at Ruka. Plus, she recently discovered that Juri is a lesbian.

I think that Shiori sees Ruka as a replacement for Juri, since Juri's been so kindly ignoring her this whole time, making it seem impossible that they could ever become friends again. It was actually Juri's sword who she was polishing. We never see whose locker the sword actually fell from, and since Juri's locker was right next to Ruka's, we can assume it was hers. Keeping this in mind, the sword actually holds some interesting symbolism. The sword symbolizes Juri, which is why Ruka has a hard time getting her to look at him, because she keeps looking at the sword instead. When he places his hand on her cheek, rather than it being a romantic gesture, he's trying to keep her from looking away from him and at the sword, which she does anyway, so he redirects her gaze at him and kisses her.

satyreyes wrote:

* Why precisely is Shiori banging Ruka?  Does she think Juri likes him and is engaging in her automatic "take away what Juri wants" behavior?  Does she just figure that sleeping with Juri's better at swordplay will cheese her off?  Or what?

As I mentioned above, she probably isn't in this just to hurt Juri. It's true that she did take some pleasure out of Juri confronting her to tell her that Ruka was no good, since this was seemingly and act of jealousy. Though she didn't seem to be too crazy about Ruka at first, eventually she began to completely think of him as Juri. "You're the only person I've ever cared about! That's right, I polished your sword every day, didn't I?! You were all that mattered!" She's really talking about Juri. The reason why she completely loses it in front of the school is because now not only has she lost Juri, but she's lost Ruka as well. And just like with her relationship with Juri, Ruka places all of the blame in her for what happened.

I'm not a Shiori expert, but I do have some opinions on the matter.

satyreyes wrote:

1. What was Shiori doing at Ruka's locker?  "That wasn't my sword."  If the sword in Ruka's locker wasn't Ruka's sword, whose was it? Had someone actually been polishing Ruka's sword, or was Ruka just setting Shiori up by saying so?
2.  Why precisely is Shiori banging Ruka?  Does she think Juri likes him and is engaging in her automatic "take away what Juri wants" behavior?  Does she just figure that sleeping with Juri's better at swordplay will cheese her off?  Or what?
3.  Why does Ruka duel?  Even if he wins, given his condition, he can't possibly survive long enough to claim the power of miracles and use it to rehabilitate Juri.

1. I am of the opinion that it was not his locker at all. In the future, I may revise this opinion, but at this point I have not found a reason to do so. I think the sword itself is insignificant, but Ruka, Shiori, and the lie they create give it meaning, kind of like the Sword of Dios and the duel game. The sword "appears" at the right moment and creates the situation Ruka needs. He catches Shiori  up in a lie and has an  reason for paying attention to her. It makes her seem like the persurer in a way that "Hey baby, do you wanna shag?" doesn't. It may have been intentionally set up to fall or Ruka might just have used the situation to his advantage. Either way, it is the perfect situation for Ruka.

2. Shiori defines herself by other people, as do most of the characters in the series. Ruka is a cool, popular, older guy who pays attention to her so she becomes cool by extension and the sex act connects them. However Juri does figure into the situation. She wants to show Juri that she can be someone special without her.

3. He wants the power for Juri, not himself. His duel was about setting up Shiori and Juri, not defeating Utena and gaining the power for himself. He wanted to give Juri her miracle and her freedom, but perhaps once she had her miracle, there would be enough left over for him. Maybe she would be able to love him, even for a moment. In a sense, he does get something, but not in the way he planned--Juri's feeling for him soften and she ends up free in the end.

This has brought up some really interesting thoughts that I should expand on when I am not working on a term paper. I do have one question about this though. Does Shiori remember the locket and Juri's feelings for her? I haven't decided.

Last edited by alexielnet (04-07-2007 02:00:37 PM)

Shiori's there.  Presumably to watch someone fence.  And who would she have to watch fence but Juri?  She sees Juri and Ruka fence and interact--Juri's a little hostile toward Ruka, but it's also obvious that they know each other.  I don't think Shiori jumps to the conclusion that Juri has a crush on Ruka...  But I think she has a sort of compulsion to attempt to come between Juri and anyone else--whether it's due to jealousy of Juri or jealousy over Juri or both.  And maybe she thinks Ruka is cute, who knows.

I just recently re-watched the series, and I believe that Juri was sitting on that bench at dusk at the begining.  She looks at the empty space next to her and says something that about feelings.  My mind automatically assumed Shiori, until it became obvious that that bench was Ruka and Juri's place (where they practiced fencing).  Now, this could be a scene from the future, but there's like 0 indication one way or another, so I'm just taking it as occuring chronologically.  Ruka was Juri's teacher and friend--and maybe even her confidant in a time when she was less 'thorny' than she is now.  He could easily know a lot more about Shiori than we might initially expect.  And he could have meant quite a lot to Juri.

* What was Shiori doing at Ruka's locker?
After Shiori sees the duel, she goes into the locker room.  She is sort-of caressing the lockers, and more than one of them, too.  Perhaps both Juri's and Ruka's.  I figure she went back there out of curiosity, hoping to run into either Juri or Ruka.  The timeline suggests she should have known who Ruka was prior to leaving the school and that Juri and Ruka had been friends once.  A possible explanation aside from habit and subconscious compulsion is that, knowing Juri and Ruka were friends and seeing Juri glare at him, made her think she and Ruka had something in common.

* Had someone actually been polishing Ruka's sword, or was Ruka just setting Shiori up by saying so?
I think Ruka was lying.  Maybe someone had polished his sword.  I dunno.  Why would it still be in his locker, though?  Fencing isn't a cheap hobby.  But ultimately he was setting her up.  I'm guessing he came to Ohtori with his general plan already formed, and he knew how Shiori would react.

How could he know how Shiori would react when Shiori probably doesn't even know?  And why would Shiori make the same mistake twice?  Because that's how people act.  The reasons Shiori told herself she had for "stealing" the first boy were far more palatable to her than her real reasons.  She admits her real reasons in the Black Rose elevator, but it's doubtful that she lives the knowledge--no, it's human nature to make excuses for ourselves.  So it's not the exact same reason, but those impulses are still alive in Shiori.

* What is Juri's problem with Ruka?
Originally?  Hard to tell.  She doesn't seem particularly thrilled to see him.  But taking that first bench-scene chronologically, it's possible Ruka was very close to Juri for a period of time.  It's possible she confided in him (maybe without naming names).  And it's possible that he left without saying anything to her and without writing the whole time he was gone.  She would have felt abandoned and a bit vulnerable, having confided in someone who was now giving her the impression of not caring.  So his return would have made her feel suspicous and a bit hostile.

* Why precisely is Shiori banging Ruka?  Does she think Juri likes him and is engaging in her automatic "take away what Juri wants" behavior?  Does she just figure that sleeping with Juri's better at swordplay will cheese her off?  Or what?
I think Shiori is trying to have the relationship with Ruka for herself this time.  She's not doing it only for Juri's reaction.  But the impulses that led her into the locker room and caused her to lie when given the opportunity were pretty much the same impulses as the first time around.  It's a good point that she might not remember the locket, but I still doubt she thinks Juri is "into" Ruka--and there's no evidence at all that Juri wants Ruka.  So I don't think she's doing it to try to prove she's as good as or better than Juri by "taking something away" from her--no, but she is still seeking validation from a boy and a relationship--and from sex.

* Why precisely is Ruka banging Shiori?  So he can break up with her and hurt her, hence giving her a taste of the pain she causes Juri?  Or does he think that deflowering Shiori will somehow help Juri get over her?
I think... Actually, I think Ruka is trying to show Juri that Shiori isn't "worthy."  He draws the absolute worst out of Shiori, even causes her to expose her deep lack of self-respect to the entire school.  He's trying to show Juri that not only will Shiori probably never return Juri's feelings, but Shiori doesn't deserve Juri's love.

* Why does Ruka duel?  Even if he wins, given his condition, he can't possibly survive long enough to claim the power of miracles and use it to rehabilitate Juri.
Juri duels the second time around.  He wants her to win, not himself.  He came to try to try to shake Juri up, and to try to get her into shape to win.  And I think he is in love with Juri--how tempting would it be to hope that by doing what he is doing he will cause Juri to "see the light" before he dies?

* What is Ruka's relationship to Akio?
Probably a little like Mikage or Touga.  Apparently Ruka knows who Akio is, so he's more on the level of Mikage or Touga--and he has a bit of an agenda of his own, which he's hoping he can get accomplished by playing Akio's game.  That would be my guess.  It's unclear closely things went according to Ruka's plan (the locket breaking?).

Juri isn't "freed" from her feelings by that duel.  She is still hung up on Shiori in the last few episodes, "only thinking about [her]self."  But we can guess that what Ruka did for her was like what Utena did for Anthy on a smaller scale.  Juri can now make progress--and seems to be doing so because she's in a much better humor even when she makes that admission.  (Not to mention her amended attitude toward Ruka at the end of the 2nd episode).

It wouldn't be strange for Shiori to identify Ruka with Juri and see Ruka as a replacement for Juri, although her neurotic need for validation is still a factor in everything she does.  Juri and Ruka are a lot alike.  After all, Ruka never told Juri how he felt, did he?

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (04-08-2007 08:37:14 PM)

Oh, I definitely agree with you.  I think that's pretty much exactly what Ruka was doing--except for some reason I think he expected Shiori to act exactly the way she did. 

He is manipulating the situation, which is why I say he "caused" her behavior--but caused is sort of the wrong word, because Ruka isn't responsible for Shiori's problems or behavior.  A tenant I hold very dear is that no matter how someone treats you, you are the only person in control of and responsible for your reaction.

But Ruka does "date" Shiori, implying a partnership--under false pretenses.  And he does set Shiori up.  He behaved pretty damn badly in several ways, so it's not like he's guiltless.

I wonder what he meant when Juri confronted him after he broke up with Shiori.  He's basically like, "Hey, you wanted me to break up with her and I did--now you want me to get back together with her?"  I generally think he's kinda taunting Juri there, acting like an ass.  But did he break up with Shiori partially because Juri asked him to?  He says to Juri before that Shiori is fun (or something like that) and that he can be with whoever he wants, etc.  You'd think that in spending time with Shiori, Ruka would come to know her as a person and become aware of the better qualities she possesses (the ones Juri presumably loves).  And that he would or should feel a bit bad about using her.  I just wonder if he felt any affection for Shiori, or if he was viewing her as some kind of sub-human.

Saying this is now giving Ruka entirely too much credit as a Machiavellian character, but...  Shiori needs to learn that no one else can be depended upon to make her like herself.  Self-worth isn't imposed from the outside (much like we are always saying about Revolution).  Ruka's breakup with her and her ensuing public humiliation might be a very good lesson in that direction.

I'm not saying that Shiori is completely innocent in the situation, but it simply isn't fair to say that Ruka played no part in her break down.

YamPuff wrote:

Again when he dumps her; everyone is so quick to say he humiliates her, but he doesn't. She humiliates herself.

Just a thought.

I think that they're both at fault.

On one hand, Shiori could have done a better job of controlling herself, even if Ruka was the one who pushed her to that end. She didn't mean to let herself get out of control, and it only happened out of fear of losing everything. Though Ruka could be considered the one at fault for what he did to her, we can't really place all of the blame in him for Shiori's actions. However, he could have done something to calm her down to keep her from making a scene. He could have gone along with what she was saying until she calmed down so that she wouldn't lose it in front of everyone.

I know that it's kind of irrelevant, and a bit much to ask for, but I would have liked to see Juri do something... anything to help Shiori, rather than just walking away.

rhyaniwyn wrote:

* What was Shiori doing at Ruka's locker?
After Shiori sees the duel, she goes into the locker room.  She is sort-of caressing the lockers, and more than one of them, too.  Perhaps both Juri's and Ruka's.  I figure she went back there out of curiosity, hoping to run into either Juri or Ruka.  The timeline suggests she should have known who Ruka was prior to leaving the school and that Juri and Ruka had been friends once.  A possible explanation aside from habit and subconscious compulsion is that, knowing Juri and Ruka were friends and seeing Juri glare at him, made her think she and Ruka had something in common.

I always figured that Ruka befriended Juri after Shiori left school. If Ruka known Juri and Shiori while they were still friends, then Juri probably wouldn't have had to explain to him that they were friends in the first place. "Shiori is... An old friend of mine."

But Ruka should have the decency to let her scream and cry and all that in private. He should have let her get out all her emotions when he broke up with her and where he broke up with her, not dumped her and walked out in front of a crowd of people. Not to mention he stops right in the middle of them, which is even worse than if he had kept walking right out of the school. Put yourself in Shiori's position. All your life you've lived in the shadow of someone you thought was so perfect and only hung out with you out of sympathy. Now this person avoids you, and you're so lonely. Then Mr."Right" comes along, seemingly more perfect than your friend. Mr. "Right" makes you feel special with his sugary words, and gives you something to fill that void in your heart. Mr. "Right" promises you that he can make you special and important forever. Promises you miracles, eternity. He takes your virginity, uses you to duel, makes you crash a car, calls you a liar, then dumps you. Everything was so perfect, then bam. It's over. You gave yourself to him physically and emotionally, and he just tosses it aside. Maybe you could control yourself, but I know I couldn't. There's no reason to blame someone for not being as strong as you.

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

For the reasons dollface listed above, it's understandable to see why Shiori broke down in front of all of those people. Although, I'm not quite sure if Ruka lead her to break down like that in front of all of those people. I'm sure it's up for interpretation, but after they lost the duel, I thought Ruka was breaking up with her right then, and then Shiori tried to get him back on the next school day. I reminds me of when Shiori kept leaving messages on Ruka's answering machine. So I don't think Ruka broke up with her in public. But it is pretty interesting that Shiori broke down in front of all of those people and didn't care, since she usually hates being looked down upon.

A very valid point. For all we know she went running after him and he didn't do anything.

Again, Ruka opened the door, but Shiori walked right in. She started their relationship on a blatant lie. Did she really expect great things from that? She got what was coming to her. And she acted like a spoiled brat about it. I dont see that she really acred about Ruka so much as what Ruka stood for.

Last edited by YamPuff (04-09-2007 03:58:32 PM)

Helping her probably would have made a world of difference. Shiori acted rashly to her trying to comfort her later on because she had let Shiori sit and wait long enough to become paranoid.

YamPuff wrote:

A very valid point. For all we know she went running after him and he didn't do anything.

Again, Ruka opened the door, but Shiori walked right in. She started their relationship on a blatant lie. Did she really expect great things from that? She got what was coming to her. And she acted like a spoiled brat about it. I dont see that she really acred about Ruka so much as what Ruka stood for.

Why is it that Shiori deserved everything she went through just because she lied? Does she deserve to have false hope waved in front her, only to have it be taken away, just because she lied? The lie itself was more of going along with what he was saying while he was trying to manipulate her. He practically manipulated her into lying by asking her a question that he knew wasn't true. It's not as though she could say, "No, I was here to polish Juri's sword," since he would probably tell Juri that.

Assuming that he really did hurt Shiori just to save Juri, I'm sorry, but I still don't think that that makes what he did okay. He did all of this for a reason, but I don't think that everything he did should be overlooked because of it.

I try to explain everything logically and keep bias out of it, but in the end I don't really like Ruka, and to me, he wasn't justified in what he did. It's just like Razara said; did Shiori really deserve to be given a taste happiness [wheather it be true or not] and then just have it pulled away? The Juri fan in me wants to think Ruka did what he did for the greater good, but the Shiori fan thinks he was irrational and cruel. And my inner Shiori fan wins over everything. I've explained this before, but I see Ruka as your typical male stereotype. He's good at what he does, but that's all it is to him. What he does. He see's the prize, not the game. All that he's concerned about is helping Juri; the fact that he's hurting Shiori doesn't matter to him. He can hardly aknowledge it. Maybe Shiori did lie so she could feel important. But at least she didn't lie to hurt anyone other than herself.

Last edited by dollface (04-09-2007 05:45:23 PM)

Yasha wrote:

I'm not trying to say that Shiori was horrible, or that Ruka was unjustified, but we do have to remember that all of these characters are flawed, all of them in ways that hurt other characters-- Shiori, Ruka, and Juri all included. Whether someone deserved something or not is not really an issue when you can justify whatever pain the characters go through simply by noting that they did something bad at one point or other. You can say that about whoever you like. What this thread was originally about was an explanation of what went on, not who deserved to have it happen or not.

For my part, I think they all deserve it, Shiori because I can't stand people like that, and Ruka because he's not cruel enough, but I do realize that a) that's a personal issue, and b) my personal feelings come into it whenever I start to think about who deserved what. That's not really what was asked here, and vilification of characters, whether it's Shiori, Ruka, or anyone else makes these things uncomfortable to discuss.

Let's keep the word 'deserve' out of this if possible. 'Deserve' is opinion, and while it's interesting to know, it's up to others to form their own opinions from the facts the same way we all did.

Thank you.

Anyway. This thread was originally about Ruka's motivations, so I'll try to explain my thoughts..

I think Ruka did have good intentions, but he went about it in a cruel way. But I think he had to do that because he was going to die soon, and he didn't have enough time. Juri did comment that he changed a lot. It seemed like he struck a deal with Akio. Maybe Akio gave him a little more time to live to accomplish his own goals, if he got Juri (and him) to duel? Something like that.

I really don't know what Ruka's exact motivations are. He was obviously trying to help (and not just being cruel for fun), but was he just trying to free Juri from her feelings of Shiori, or try to make Juri and Shiori see more clearly and have a more healthy relationship? I think it's pretty obvious that Ruka did love Juri, and he kissed her, but I think he knew he was going to die and it wasn't like he was trying to get with Juri. (Despite his forceful kissing and saying he'd like Juri to be his woman)

But I think in the end, cruel or not, he did help them. I think Juri was very slothful in her feelings for Shiori; she didn't do anything about it, nor did she try to get over them. Ruka seemed to be trying to get her to get over them, because while being tied down by her unrequited feelings, Juri couldn't move forward. He saw her as someone who was brilliant and could do better.

As for Shiori, she was still "cruelly innocent". She admits to herself in Mikage's elevator that she only dated Nameless Boy to take someone from Juri, but does she only realize that in the elevator? (Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't remember if she admitted it somewhere else or not) It could be she only knew it then because she was going down in her sub-conscious state. And then with Ruka, she makes a similar mistake, depending on how you interpret it. Whether she wanted to steal Ruka from Juri or not, she didn't date him for the right reasons. Ruka manipulated her to fall into a lie, but the scary part is that she started to believe her own lies. Shiori really is a very innocent, easily disillusioned and manipulated girl. Thus "cruelly innocent". If Ruka was trying to help her, he might have been trying to break that innocence. (But he could have just as easily been only trying to hurt her. Your call.)

What Ruka did to Shiori was cruel, but in the end she does seem to improve. Maybe she needed a heartbreak like that to make her more careful about relationships. Juri also improves, by moving on and not clinging to her feelings to the point where they bring her down. I just know that in the end, we see Juri/Shiori as a more mutual and healthy relationship.

But, back on topic.. since I'm a little indecisive on this, do you think that Ruka was trying to free Juri from her feelings for Shiori, or help but Juri and Shiori out?

dollface wrote:

Yasha is very right. I'm sorry, I know I don't have as many things to say about Shiori as Razara or someone else might, but she is very important to me, and I get defensive. I won't even lie about it, I plain out don't like Ruka. But I shouldn't let my bias make its way into my interpretations. Actually, this whole forum has several little Ruka-based opinions and interpretations, and I think that thanks to you all, I might be starting to at least appreciate him as a character. I'm still a long, long way from liking him though. But that's alright, I avoid character bashing whenever possible. I know many people dislike Shiori and it bothers me to hear them badmouth her. I guess not everything I've said about Ruka here was really necissary. I'll try to watch my mouth.

I can kind of understand that. When I first watched SKU, I didn't like Shiori at all (as well as many other characters). By the second watch, I tolerated her more, as well as yet again, many other characters. When I read a lot of interpretations of Shiori by you and Razara, I learned to see her in a more sympathetic light. She still isn't a favourite of mine, but I know she isn't a cruel vindictive bitch like many people claim she is. (that would be movie!Shiori) I was kind of trying to do the same with Ruka, by trying to explain my interpretations of his motives to people who don't tolerate him/understand him as well.

dollface wrote:

I can see how it would work in the latter, but I've always believed he's trying to free Juri from Shiori. I mean, in their duel he tells her how unfair it is that miracles are given to "people like her". Maybe by hurting Shiori he was teaching her about her relationship with Juri, but he really doesn't do anything with Juri to showcase how to have a better relationship with Shiori. Whatever he was doing, I suppose it worked out well enough, since Juri and Shiori are on much better terms. Hmm, this is a really good question. But like I said, I honestly think he was trying to help Juri stand on her own without Shiori.

I was thinking the same thing, sadly. \: Ruka was way more cruel to Shiori than Juri, and he seemed to resent her. Especially when he went on about the unfairness of her. (I wanted to quote exactly what he said, but I forgot how to word it) He seemed to admire Juri and couldn't understand why a girl like Shiori was bringing her down. But, in the end, it still seems like Juri and Shiori are going to be together, whether Ruka intended it or not. (Which is kind of ironic, but also good because he still helped them out in a way)