This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top02-25-2014 08:38:44 PM

Kita-Ysabell
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Registered: 11-18-2012
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Too Rich for My Blood: An Opera Thread

I threatened to do this somewhere, I know I did.

And I started it a while ago, but somewhere after restarting Safari like, five billion times, it got lost.

So what do all y'all think of opera?  Love it?  Hate it?  Feel a vast and insurmountable indifference to it?  Do you have a favorite opera?  A least favorite?  Is La Boheme the most overrated thing of all time?  Is opera inevitably terrible when sung in English?  Is there an mp3 and/or photo and/or video that's opera related that you've been dying to post?

And… yeah.  Y'know.

Opera.



Personally, I think opera is hilarious.  On a scale of actual quality, it doesn't usually rate very high, but it's so unrepentantly pretentious that I think that at some point it looped back around to the highest possible form of camp.

But recently, I discovered that in addition to just being spectacle, opera can actually be good or not good.  Case in point: Rigoletto and The Consul, Seattle Opera's two most recent productions.  If I had to compare SKU to an opera, it would be Rigoletto.  The characters get actual development!  It riffs of things that, like always happen in other operas, and plays them in a way that is not ridiculous!  And the music is pretty, but really, that's… kind of a given?  Well no, it's not, but it's definitely something that more operas get right, so it's less of a priority for me.

And then, there's The Consul.  Has anything from the 1950's aged well?  I mean, it has what I guess is supposed to be a strong female lead, but somehow manages to make her more regressive than women who are treated like property, because… she kind of acts like property.  She does what her husband tells her to do, without really showing any investment in it herself other than doing it because he told her to.  And no one, no one exists as more than a projection of how Menotti reactively felt about whatever their role is.  Menotti hates the secret police type, so secret police dude is an asshole in every conceivable way.  Menotti reveres revolutionaries, so everyone talks about how John is a hero.

I heard it's supposed to be an adaptation of Kafka's The Trial, but that's like saying that SKU is a straight adaptation of Demian.  They may share themes, but everything is different: the characters, the details of the plot, the setting.  And, unlike SKU, The Consul executes those themes in the most terrible, clunky, back-asswards manner possible.  The music doesn't match, the setting attempts to convey monotony and claustrophobia by switching frenetically between two different scenes, the characters I've touched upon, and the language.  Dat language, guys.

It sounds like something I tried to write in high school.  It really does.  Only I might have done a better job, 'cause I at least understood how to use surrealism.  This just has nonsense dream sequences: the imagery used in them doesn't relate to anything else in the opera.  And the imagery in general is just bad.  It's like Menotti (who did write the libretto, as well as the music) went through a checklist of overused cliches and made sure to include all of them.  Stars?  Check.  Sea?  Check.  Boats?  Check.  Flowers?  Check.  Darkness?  Check.  Fire?  Check.  Weddings?  Check.  Trains?  Check.  And none of them are actually motifs, they just turn up once for the sake of leaving no tedious stone unturned.  It might be at least partially the fact that it's in English, so any awkwardness can't just be chocked up to a sub-par translation.  But still, I'm pretty sure the writing is just exceptionally bad.


"Et in Arcadio ego..."

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#2 | Back to Top02-27-2014 09:49:43 PM

Alithea
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From: Westminster, CO
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 1152
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Re: Too Rich for My Blood: An Opera Thread

I love opera. I'm sad to say I've only seen two of them live. I've seen The Barber of Seville and The Marriage of Figaro performed by the San Francisco opera company. I've seen quite a few opera's on tv because PBS is awesome, and because Bravo and A&E used to be awesome. Gods...remember that? When Bravo and A&E were awesome networks that showed just endless operas, musicals, ballets, and plays. Or the making of certain productions. Anyway... Love opera.

Sometimes it's not that an opera is bad so much as a production of it is bad. Like I've seen a few dozen versions of The Marriage of Figaro and in some cases it feels like that cast has forgotten that it is in a comedy. So much of a production depends on the level of acting combined with singing to make the story stand out. Then again some operas are just sort of boring. Though some of that can also be a lack of knowledge of a viewers part. I've found that because of the language difference, and because some staging can get to be...er... very modern, it can help to do a little research on the story before watching to fully understand what's going on (or what the historical implications of the opera held at the time).

Once when I was in high school I stayed up super late and caught the tail end of an English opera about vampires. I'm not sure if it was a modern Dracula or what.

One of my biggest pet peeves with opera happens a lot with The Magic Flute which is a fun opera for beginners in which the German is replaced with English. It really bugs me when this happens, if only because of the way the words are sung means you end up needing a translation or subtitles anyway, so why even change the language to begin with.

And speaking of love of opera I think my love for it started when I was little and watched this very bizarre stop motion animated orange on Sesame Street sing an aria from Carmen. Also, Placido Flamingo was pretty epic. emot-keke


"The only reason to write is to write for love. Write for passion. If you have the privilege of being able to write, then don't do it for any other reason." - Stephen Sondheim

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#3 | Back to Top02-27-2014 10:45:47 PM

Dreaded Claymore
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From: Sacramento, California
Registered: 01-28-2014
Posts: 116

Re: Too Rich for My Blood: An Opera Thread

I have seen two operas, Madama Butterfly and Carmen. I enjoyed them both.

Madama Butterfly told a very simple story.

I took Spanish classes in high school and college, so one thing that really struck me about Carmen was watching "Gypsies" (Roma I suppose?) and Spanish soldiers, singing about bullfighting and gallant matadors...in French. emot-confused Then after that relatively brief fun part, they got on with the emotional turmoil.

Last edited by Dreaded Claymore (06-13-2015 05:15:43 PM)

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#4 | Back to Top02-28-2014 08:38:29 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
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Re: Too Rich for My Blood: An Opera Thread

I adore quite a few operas, and operatic modes in a more general sense, but I don't want thorough characterization or arch development in my opera. I want fugues. Big goddammed fugues of emotion and sensibility and swells of motion and resonance.

But, then, I think Urinetown is a great musical and millenial Queen Emeraldas four-parter is a crowning achievement in animation.

It does seem to be harder to justify opera as a separate mode, these days, even if you veer to "everything is at the service of the music" as a qualifier, in the same way that verse plays and concept/story albums in character are increasingly just tools in the bag, not bags unto themselves.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#5 | Back to Top02-28-2014 01:37:23 PM

Anthiena
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From: ...the space between your ears
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1108

Re: Too Rich for My Blood: An Opera Thread

I really, really love opera and have only seen things on Youtube and movies, like the famous one used in Hannibal for example.

There have been operas I didn't care for but the more operas I listen to, the more I love them to pieces.


I stopped seeking to be sought after. That wasn't being true to myself.
I want to become someone who can exercise power. I want to become a prince. - Ikuni

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#6 | Back to Top03-01-2014 01:41:24 PM

gpink
Eternal Castellan
Registered: 11-21-2009
Posts: 269

Re: Too Rich for My Blood: An Opera Thread

I like it and actually took a course on it in College. I got to see Don Giovanni on a simucast type deal and sections of Fedillio and la Traviata.

Last edited by gpink (03-01-2014 01:41:52 PM)

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#7 | Back to Top03-01-2014 10:43:32 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
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Re: Too Rich for My Blood: An Opera Thread

I'm sorry, no discussion about opera is complete without mention of the best thing to happen to people who don't live in NYC since nonstop airfare to NYC.

Met Opera: Live in HD

Sure, it lacks some of the sexy of actually suiting up and going, but it's live, it's accessible, it's the best of the best...and it's subtitled. emot-biggrin

So far operas have stuck out for me based on their production and who wowed me. The Barber of Seville that aired on Live in HD is probably still my favorite for Peter Mattei, this ridiculously tall scenery muncher that played Figaro. Similarly, René Pape's performance in Faust made it one of my favorites.

...opera isn't any different than any other medium. I always like the jerks. emot-rolleyes


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#8 | Back to Top03-02-2014 10:49:58 AM

TheOnlyFlorence
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Registered: 09-16-2012
Posts: 454

Re: Too Rich for My Blood: An Opera Thread

Oh my goodness, the things to say about opera...

Let's start with the goods: Opera is a magnificent medium, with singers that can make you wet yourself with glee, resonate in your soul and bring forth feelings you didn't think you could convey. The sets are usually marvelous, and you truly get what you pay for. Sometimes the directors can make wonderful new tellings of the same old stories, which still impresses me to this day. The casting is usually pretty good, though sometimes chorus members can be... interesting. emot-rofl

Sadly, now, for the bads: I will attempt to convey all that I have seen behind-the-scenes and as a patron.

I have performed for a couple well-known operas in the States, and, for the most part, enjoyed it when a light actually shown on my face. The crew treats the supernumeraries (non-singing actors) like shit; any comments, questions, or concerns will be ignored. The pay is atrocious and, quite frankly, insulting. If you aren't doing things precisely the first time, the director will yell and berate you in their language of choice (I learned very quickly the usefulness of the word 'entschuldigung'). The leads won't even say 'Hello' to you. You are beneath them. A small roach under their grossly overweight figure.

The critics have usually agreed on the greats and the train wrecks in performances. Several I was in got great reviews for the leads, but beat the shit out of the director for lack of true vision, anything intriguing, worthwhile of spectacle, which I do appreciate. It is unfortunate, though, as it then makes a little blotch on your record, should anyone remember it well.

The chorus can be just as bad, sometimes. Their acting skill often rivals that of a inbred goat. Most of them are unhappy to be chorus, but go through the motions all the same. Any stage combat they have is dramatically slowed down, as they can barely keep up. While some of the leads are guilty of this, as well, it's a bit rarer for them.


As far as shows go, there are usually good tracks I nab from some. Most, though, is bleh to me. Especially since I can't remove the poor, poor acting choices of some of the leads that I laugh about to this very day. Stop the Face Petting 2014.

I will hold that my favorite opera is "Faustus" until my brain gives out. I saw it performed in French, and it was truly phenomenal. I also quite enjoyed an English version of "Le Petit Prince," which had some pretty damn good settings and acting.

I don't know how quite to end this rant, so I'll just stop here. emot-confused

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#9 | Back to Top03-02-2014 05:55:42 PM

Kita-Ysabell
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Registered: 11-18-2012
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Re: Too Rich for My Blood: An Opera Thread

Ooh, Florence, you've been involved in productions?  Awesome!  What do/did you do, may I ask?

I think I'm just hyper-focused on narratives in general.  I definitely allow that opera music has the power to move me, but, well, you won't find me listening to it outside of the context of the opera itself, and part of what I want and expect it to do is to act as a part of the larger story, the characters, etc.  An aria can be as pretty as it likes, but if it's not in service to the development of the plot, themes, and characters, then my reaction will be a firm "meh."


"Et in Arcadio ego..."

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#10 | Back to Top03-02-2014 10:05:59 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
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Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: Too Rich for My Blood: An Opera Thread

Yeah, plot (and everything else) has to be at the service of the music in opera. Otherwise, it's just a musical or a play with songs.

And, to follow up on the rhetorical 50s question, even in musical theater, yes, there's some grand stuff from the 50s. Guys and Dolls is from the 50s, Candide, The Triumph of St Joan.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#11 | Back to Top03-02-2014 10:26:29 PM

TheOnlyFlorence
Revolution Televisor
Registered: 09-16-2012
Posts: 454

Re: Too Rich for My Blood: An Opera Thread

Kita-Ysabell wrote:

Ooh, Florence, you've been involved in productions?  Awesome!  What do/did you do, may I ask?

I was a supernumerary. I played a soldier (rather fun, nice costuming) and then in another as an affluent party guest that gets involved in a nasty brawl. emot-biggrin

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#12 | Back to Top04-12-2014 08:33:56 PM

Dreaded Claymore
Rose Bride
From: Sacramento, California
Registered: 01-28-2014
Posts: 116

Re: Too Rich for My Blood: An Opera Thread

Last Saturday (one week ago), I went to a production of HMS Pinafore, because one of my friends was in it. I'd say it qualifies as an opera, even if only narrowly, because it has a ludicrous plot twist that would never be acceptable in any other genre (SPOILER!): [The captain and an ordinary sailor both want to marry outside their class, which is of course not done. They are sad. Then, Little Buttercup reveals that, many years ago, she was a wetnurse to two babies, one high-born and one common, and that she mixed them up, and that the common-born baby grew up to become the captain, and the noble one grew up to become the common sailor. Upon hearing this, the captain and the sailor immediately switch uniforms and assume each other's stations, happy that they may now marry their sweethearts.]

I was not feeling very happy that day, due to some drama of my own making (mostly), and HMS Pinafore cheered me up considerably. emot-smile

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#13 | Back to Top04-13-2014 09:31:13 AM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: Too Rich for My Blood: An Opera Thread

HMS Pinafore -like most (if not all?) the Savoy Operas- is actually an operetta, technically. I know this because I performed one of the Savoy's for a project in high school, and was docked because it wasn't "technically" opera, even though I sang on stage -a lifelong nightmare. It was just as bad as I always knew it would be. Seriously though, how much of a fucking bitch/masochist do you have to be to want to sit through 30-odd untrained 13 year olds butchering their way through arias?

That's my opera story. I enjoy the medium, but I'm not really knowledgeable enough to contribute much of note, aside from the observation that opera costuming is amazing (getting to visit my aunt's workshop when she was the costumer for a company).

Last edited by MissMocha (04-13-2014 09:32:22 AM)


The first time you looked at her curves you were hooked
And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
Such a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

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#14 | Back to Top04-14-2014 07:45:06 PM

Alithea
Dark Whisperer
From: Westminster, CO
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 1152
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Re: Too Rich for My Blood: An Opera Thread

Yesterday on PBS they showed the 2013 Metropolitan Opera's production of Verdi's Falstaff (basically The Merry Wives of Windsor). It was hilarious and a great deal of fun, but also just musically sublime. I really like when comedies are done well. It was set during the 1950's which was an acceptable modern setting, and the costumes and sets where great.


"The only reason to write is to write for love. Write for passion. If you have the privilege of being able to write, then don't do it for any other reason." - Stephen Sondheim

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