This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top01-27-2016 09:36:43 PM

Kae-Leah
Saionji Slapper
From: USA
Registered: 01-27-2016
Posts: 29

Biggest Difference Between SKU Manga And Anime: Idealism Vs Realism

I think the biggest difference between the Revolutionary Girl Utena manga and anime versions is that Chiho Saito, who drew and wrote the manga seems to have a much more idealistic and romantic worldview. In the manga, it is when Utena turns into a Prince in the end that she is at her sharpest and wisest, she suddenly knew exactly what she needed to do. She's asked if she's Dios, but with a smile full of confidence in her own identity and purpose, she insists no, she isn't Dios, she is Utena, even though she is wearing a prince uniform pretty much identical to Dios's. She is warned that she will cease to exist if she fuses Dios and Akio into one again, but she doesn't seem to mind that, as she literally vanishes into nothing, she smiles blissfully, as if ascending into a higher plane of existence as a magical prince is ultimately what she truly wants more than anything else.

Saito is thus subverting a traditional fairy tale narrative in some ways, but this story is still quite idealistic at its core, as she does seem to view the mythical prince ideal as more or less a good thing, a role that doesn't hold Utena back but empowers her to reach her true potential, even though that potential may mean sacrificing herself for the greater good. It's also very interesting to note that at the very end of the manga, Anthy is wearing a prince outfit much like Utena's and is acting as if she's become the new Utena, even playing sports and having fangirls squeal over how cool she is, just like Utena did, implying that Saito views that being a prince like Utena is something worth emulating.

On the other hand, the anime seems to have a very "tell it like it is" tone. It gives the impression in the last few episodes that clinging to the fairy tale tropes of prince, princess, and witch is problematic, and people should instead break free from labels. Anthy tells Utena she can't become her prince because she's a girl, and Akio insists there was never such a thing as a true prince in the world to begin with. Utena is last seen on screen barely alive, and apologizing to Anthy that she failed to become a prince for her. Hence the manga has an idealistic worldview and the manga a realistic worldview.

So which is better? That is a very subjective question which depends greatly on a person's individual beliefs. I personally am a bit of an idealist at heart. I feel much more inspired by the idea that one's dreams can sometimes come true, even though it may be much harder than one expects, than the view that one must completely abandon their childish ideals to grow up and become a functioning adult. The ending of the Utena manga is one of the most powerful endings I've ever come across in media, hence why I've made a lot of fan videos recently that center around the climax of the manga. It reminds me a bit of the bittersweet endings of many pre-Disneyfied fairy tales, such as Hans Christian Anderson's original The Little Mermaid in which like Utena in the manga the mermaid sacrificed herself in order to selflessly protect someone she loved, and was awarded by ascending to a higher plane of existence.

Last edited by Kae-Leah (01-27-2016 09:37:38 PM)


Man or woman, it doesn't matter, one of strength and nobility is always a prince-Utena Tenjou, Revolutionary Girl Utena manga volume one

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#2 | Back to Top01-28-2016 12:51:23 PM

Rocko52
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 12-10-2015
Posts: 17

Re: Biggest Difference Between SKU Manga And Anime: Idealism Vs Realism

Although I haven't read the manga yet (and I just seriously spoiled myself emot-rofl but oh well lol) I have to say, the ending of the anime was very strong to me. When Utena finally collapses, and apologizes for not being able to become a prince,  I found that a very powerful moment. It also brought one of the series' many themes, that of the prince/princess archetypes, full force. Early on in the story we think that Utena is a strong character because she is subverting gender roles, which is a nice thing in of itself. However, the conclusion that the series comes to, I think, is a great deal more radical and even anarchically than merely suggesting that it's all right for girls to fill traditionally male roles and vice verse. Instead, it shows that the entire nature of these roles, these archetypes, these princes and princesses, just can't exist. It's not because she's a girl that she can't become a prince, it is because prince's simply are not real. Instead of that being a debilitating realization, instead it comes as empowering, if somewhat scary. Princes and princesses aren't useful archetypes, according to the show, (and my interpretation of it lol) in fact roles and archetypes in general are not useful. Instead, we should break past them all, and enter into a create a new world. Utena, once she realizes how shallow and meaningless the current world Ohtori is, with is ingrained ideals, archetype idolization, and refusal to let go of the past & inability to resolve old problems, she is able to grow and leave that world. I feel like there are several ways you can apply the ending of the show to varies themes it's trying to portray, such as the passage from childhood into adulthood, or feminism & equality breaking free from misogyny, (all of which are valid too imo, just different aspects of Utena's very layered narrative)  but I think that this proposal of throwing aside the current rules of the world, breaking free into the new and remaking it entirely, this very anarchic idea, is one of the ending's principal messages. And I love it for that.

Also, Utena and Anthy's love is fantastic and complex too, both on a narrative and thematic level, so yeah, woot Utena x Anthy. lol

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#3 | Back to Top01-28-2016 02:52:21 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
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Re: Biggest Difference Between SKU Manga And Anime: Idealism Vs Realism

Kae-Leah, that's some insightful stuff!  I think you're exactly right that the manga approves of princes, while the anime doesn't believe in them.  At the same time, just because the anime discards "prince" as a useful label doesn't mean it abandons idealism.  You're right when you recall that

Anthy tells Utena she can't become her prince because she's a girl, and Akio insists there was never such a thing as a true prince in the world to begin with. Utena is last seen on screen barely alive, and apologizing to Anthy that she failed to become a prince for her.

But this is a case of "consider the source."  Anthy and Utena are both at their lowest emotional points in the series when they say those lines, and Akio is... well, he's Akio.  And so when they say "you failed to be a prince," what comes through the cynicism is "you failed to be a good person."  That's harsh, and it's true that Utena is not as good a person as she thought she was.  But the show isn't saying that you can't be good -- that because there is no such thing as a prince, we might as well give up on treating each other with dignity and friendship.  Quite the opposite!  The anime cherishes its rare acts of friendship, and it portrays Utena as a good guy in spite of her flaws.  The message is: Even though we live in a world without princes or perfectly pure hearts, there are still such things as strength and nobility, and they are values worth aspiring to.  To me, that's idealistic.  It's idealistic in a way I can relate to and get behind.

I won't lie; the first time I saw the anime's last episode, my reaction was something like yours.  I wanted a better ending for my hero, something that recognized everything she'd done and tried to do.  I wasn't wrong, but I was overlooking a couple things.  The first was that I was seriously underestimating how happy an ending this was.  Utena herself might not get to enjoy it, but the revolution happens, and it's quieter than expected but still glorious.  The second was that I hadn't noticed the real biggest difference between the manga and the anime.

The biggest difference between the manga and the anime is that the manga is about Utena, while the anime is about Anthy.

Am I making a big, provocative statement only to back away from it in the next paragraph?  I sure am!  Both of these media are about both of these characters.  But it's a question of emphasis.  Anthy in the manga is a developed character, but she spends a whole lot of time serving the development of Utena's character, while the reverse is less true.  Conversely, in the anime, while Anthy is used to develop Utena's character, Utena is used to develop Anthy's character at least as much and maybe more.  It's done subtly, and from the point of view of Utena as the protagonist, so it's harder to spot, but Anthy certainly grows more than Utena in the anime.

Which leads me to this: the manga ends happily for the manga, and the anime ends happily for the anime.  The main character of each one gets the ending she earned.  As for Utena at the end of the anime, her consolation is that -- as she lies on the ground sobbing that she couldn't be Anthy's prince -- she doesn't understand the wheels she set in motion.  She helped Anthy much more, and much more truly, than a prince on a white horse ever could have.

Last edited by satyreyes (01-28-2016 02:55:00 PM)

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#4 | Back to Top01-28-2016 04:18:57 PM

Kae-Leah
Saionji Slapper
From: USA
Registered: 01-27-2016
Posts: 29

Re: Biggest Difference Between SKU Manga And Anime: Idealism Vs Realism

Thank you very much for responding, satyreyes! etc-love It makes me feel good that my analysis has inspired discussion. I think you have made some fair points, especially in regards to Anthy. The anime ending is very Anthy-centric, yes, while the manga ending is more about Utena fulfilling her potential, or at the very least about both gals equally.


Man or woman, it doesn't matter, one of strength and nobility is always a prince-Utena Tenjou, Revolutionary Girl Utena manga volume one

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#5 | Back to Top01-28-2016 05:42:49 PM

Rocko52
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 12-10-2015
Posts: 17

Re: Biggest Difference Between SKU Manga And Anime: Idealism Vs Realism

Hey satyreyes - I'm just a bit curious based on one of your statements there, are you of the opinion that Utena died in the finale? I personally am not, but some of the things you said made me wonder if you were, and I'd like to here your perspective on that a bit.

Also Kay-Leah, yeah thanks for the great topic! I had just sort of got over my desire to read the manga in the near future (I've resigned myself to holding off on reading it till I can find a decent price and/or if it gets scanned or licensed at some point in the future) but now you're making me want to read it all the more to compare it with the show lol. poptart

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#6 | Back to Top01-28-2016 06:03:07 PM

Kae-Leah
Saionji Slapper
From: USA
Registered: 01-27-2016
Posts: 29

Re: Biggest Difference Between SKU Manga And Anime: Idealism Vs Realism

You can find it (technically illegally, to be sure) scanlated on most scanlation sites, but fair warning, the most commonly found fan translation is HORRIBLE. Like I felt a bit embarassed at times using those scans in my MMVs because the grammar and syntax is awful, some sentences don't even make sense at all, and they insist on leaving a few common Japanese words such as "gomen nasai"(i'm sorry) untranslated which is awkward and unnecessary. It just really doesn't do the manga justice at all.
The Viz unflipped Shojo edition is worth the $$$ in my opinion, as it's a gazillion times better than that. It's not always a perfect word-for-word translation(I know because I own the first volume in Japanese, my Japanese reading comprehension is at least an intermediate/JLPT N3 level so I can get the gist of it), but the way they sometimes embellished the dialogue never really changes the meaning that much, it just makes it flow very naturally in English.


Man or woman, it doesn't matter, one of strength and nobility is always a prince-Utena Tenjou, Revolutionary Girl Utena manga volume one

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#7 | Back to Top01-28-2016 06:35:56 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Biggest Difference Between SKU Manga And Anime: Idealism Vs Realism

Rocko52 wrote:

Hey satyreyes - I'm just a bit curious based on one of your statements there, are you of the opinion that Utena died in the finale? I personally am not, but some of the things you said made me wonder if you were, and I'd like to here your perspective on that a bit.

I think it's left open.  If you talk to different members of this forum you'll get a lot of different opinions about what happens to Utena after the finale.  Some people point out, uh, okay, so the swords were destroying everything, and the last thing we saw was the swords flying at Utena's face, so why should we think she lives?  Myself, I think she's alive, because Anthy thinks she's alive.  Anthy definitely understands the (meta)physics of the planetarium better than I do, so I'm willing to take her word for it. emot-rofl  Besides, I like Anthy's interpretation.  Utena's not dead, she's just left the garden; she's graduated.  That seems to fit the themes of the series better to me.  Growing up hurts, but it doesn't literally kill you.

Totally not biased because she's my favorite character. emot-wink

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#8 | Back to Top01-29-2016 05:06:41 AM

Rocko52
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 12-10-2015
Posts: 17

Re: Biggest Difference Between SKU Manga And Anime: Idealism Vs Realism

Kae-Leah wrote:

You can find it (technically illegally, to be sure) scanlated on most scanlation sites, but fair warning, the most commonly found fan translation is HORRIBLE. Like I felt a bit embarassed at times using those scans in my MMVs because the grammar and syntax is awful, some sentences don't even make sense at all, and they insist on leaving a few common Japanese words such as "gomen nasai"(i'm sorry) untranslated which is awkward and unnecessary. It just really doesn't do the manga justice at all.
The Viz unflipped Shojo edition is worth the $$$ in my opinion, as it's a gazillion times better than that. It's not always a perfect word-for-word translation(I know because I own the first volume in Japanese, my Japanese reading comprehension is at least an intermediate/JLPT N3 level so I can get the gist of it), but the way they sometimes embellished the dialogue never really changes the meaning that much, it just makes it flow very naturally in English.

How you tempt me lol. I might just start looking for any somewhat reasonable ebay auctions...the artwork in the manga looks beautiful and I can't wait to read it at some point! (Whether that be shelling out or the lucky chance of getting a better scanlation or, even more unlikely, a new licensor)

@satyreyes Seeing so many long-time fans on this site with their, by now, well developed (one would hope lol) opinions makes me really want to better develop my own. I have had a few theories/interpretations on the show, but I really want to start fleshing them out and making them come somewhere close to as eloquent as all of yours lol.

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