This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#26 | Back to Top09-15-2008 11:05:58 AM

Valeli
Thorn of Death
Registered: 12-05-2006
Posts: 481
Website

Re: Stereotypes/Media Representations of Bisexuals

I don't see a better thread to put my two cents in, and don't feel like starting one, so.... here. This is going to ramble a bit. Lots, rather. Sorry.

I think a lot of this (sexuality?) is formed through cultural lenses, etc. The idea that some men have difficulty finding other men beautiful baffles me, and I can only assume that it's because repeated messages send out some kind of signal that they shouldn't be able to do so. Apparently I missed that signal: go figure. It wouldn't be the first thing I've missed though. Anyhow... while I can think of plenty of attractive men (shatteredmirror in a nice suit, Brad Pitt, etc)....I don't want to have sex with any of them. I suppose there's a spectrum of sorts, as some people have said. The only (or main, rather) reason I wouldn't have sex with another man is purely personal ... the method of doing it is not something I'm interested in trying. Ever. If you disagree and are up to it... more power to you. It shouldn't be my concern, and I don't think it should be anyone's concern. Emotional connections to people go beyond sexual relations, but my being particularly connected to X, Y, or Z doesn't make me bi or gay (imo, at least). That's what friendship is. And friendship is a valuable thing, no matter what it's predicated on.

The first contrast that pops to my mind I suppose would be the ancient greeks, where relations between men were much more common - even if/when they weren't marriage type relations. I'm not an ancient greek insider by any means, but my understanding is that a lot of it was fueled by a platonic sense of beauty qua beauty, and the appreciation of it as such. So you could appreciate another man, and stand to gain from relating to him or acknowledging that he was a closer approximation of beauty as such than X, but that didn't tie you into exclusively homosexual relations.

In the US though, that isn't enough to stop a majority (or significant minority, perhaps) from acting like sexuality is their concern. That's an artificial assumption of burden, but when enough people assume it anyways, it's hard to do very much about it. It turns into a public debate. Abortion is a fairly close parallel to sexual relations in this sense, if you ask me (not that I'm overwhelmingly qualified here either). The government is not in a position to genuinely regulate either (if the state prohibits abortions, that won't stop them... it will just outsource them to foreign countries for the rich or make them much riskier for the poor, imo ... and the state clearly can't regulate love as such), but the government nonetheless decides that it must act. To be fair to the US government (and I apologize if I offend anyone), straight relations are, broadly, natural. Or at the very least relations that encompass having sex with the opposite gender. That's just how it goes.... that's how species survive, and there's no way around it. It's also how new citizens are born, in countries where birth equals citizenship. I don't think humans are /that/ fundamentally different from other organic creations that we can just toss those rules out the window on the whole.

Why modern governments should concern themselves with this is somewhat beyond me. The most logical reasoning I can figure out (beyond simple political pandering to redneck types) is that the State presumably gains benefits and obligations when straight people form a union and produce children (which, really, isn't possible in other types of relations). Because the state is incurring benefits and obligations, it has some obligation to regulate marriage (which is otherwise a religious thing, and beyond the state's regulation). This is similar reasoning to various statutory rape laws - the government doesn't care in a broad sense if an 18 year old is having sex with his 16 year old girl friend, but the government /does/ have a legitimate interest in staturory rape because a 16 year old girl is - in many cases - not capable of rationally planning out her future/the future of her potential child. If she can't support that child, it will become a government burden though, that must be supported through public means.

As far as people "spotting" you as a lesbian, or bisexual, or whatever.... how are they supposed to? Some of you act as if it's puzzling that people can't do this, but I'm not sure why. A person looks like a person. The first lesbian/gay people I got to know.... I had no idea until they let me know. And there's really no reason I should have known either, until we got to talking and they felt like opening up some and letting me know more about themselves than their appearences alone would let on. There's no "bi" look, that I know of.... but hey. I'm out of it. If you're bi and put yourself out there as lesbian or straight, I don't see why anyone would question you.

Anyways.... in sum: this post has no specific point or argument. It's just a few things I wanted to toss out there.

Offline

 

#27 | Back to Top09-15-2008 01:13:33 PM

Trench Kamen
Eternal Eschatologist
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: 12-08-2006
Posts: 903
Website

Re: Stereotypes/Media Representations of Bisexuals

You see, this somehow reminds me of the fandom arguments I get into regarding character sexuality. It's bad enough when you suggest that somebody may be gay when, according to others, "NO they're TOO NORMAL", but if you suggest bisexuality, you can lose credibility even with people who were supporting your slash ship. Bisexuality has an almost mythical status--sure, they exist, but true bisexuals are so intensely rare, and calling oneself or a character bisexual seems like an unrealistic cop-out, in a way.

I came out to my parents when I was 16 because I was more-or-less cornered. They're both physicians, so they thought bisexuality was not a medically-valid orientation, or that it was synonymous with pansexuality (i.e. I'd fuck anything, even a rusted pipe). Dad thought I was a lesbian in denial, given that I had a friend coming on to me in seventh grade and it did not weird me out, and Mom thought I was just going through a phase that women were more prone to than men. Hell, my best friend at work is gay and he thinks bisexuality is an invalid position.

Offline

 

#28 | Back to Top09-15-2008 02:33:31 PM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: Stereotypes/Media Representations of Bisexuals

mmm, just to clarify here, sexual orientation and sexual identity are NOT the same thing. I like flowers, but that has nothing to do with who I want to get naked with. The language is a little vague and ambiguous here, which is problematic, but the point is, if I think of someone as bisexual, I think of them that way because they have sexual interest in males and females to some degree. I hope I didn't imply that bisexuals are in any way more libidinous than anyone else, I didn't mean that at all. I mean, I happen to be more libidinous than a lot of people I know, and I don't think that has anything to do with me being straight (or nearly straight, or whatever).


"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."
-Truck North
Honorary Hat Mafia Member

Offline

 

#29 | Back to Top09-15-2008 11:29:35 PM

sharnii
Pharaoh of Phanstuff
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 08-10-2008
Posts: 2416
Website

Re: Stereotypes/Media Representations of Bisexuals

Trench wrote: They're both physicians, so they thought bisexuality was not a medically-valid orientation, or that it was synonymous with pansexuality (i.e. I'd fuck anything, even a rusted pipe).

lol to pipe comment emot-rofl

Storm, good clarification re orientation vs sexuality. Man, it does get confusing. I think for me the 2 match up and that makes it even more confusing. But it took a long time to get them to match up...maybe that's like a journey or smthg that some people go through?

I agree with previous comments about bisexuality not being presented in the media as a valid position.
Here's a good example: the character of Willow on BTVS.

Willow started out straight, with a very cute unrequited love for Xander, followed by a very cute relationship with Oz the werewolf.
Then she had a weird orientation-questioning dream, met a lesbian witch in college (Tara) and developed feelings for her.
Then she came out as a lesbian, and started up a relationship with Tara.
No more straight relationships for Willow, or even straight comments. A bit of strange tension between her and Buffy as friends (careful hugs, no more easy affection emot-confused), lotsa clever lesiban jokes, less cuteness, character turn-around. emot-gonk

I still like Willow as a character, but I do feel the writers were not TRUE to her development.
I mean, they never expressed what her early loves for Xander and Oz meant...they made it seem like they were mistakes, or meant nothing. In fact they didn't even really do that...they made it one of those things that "we don't talk about". A black hole of canon.

I think they should have expressed that Willow is bi. (Is that so wrong? It makes sense with her history...)
Or alternatively they should have made her lesbian-preferring. I mean, it doesn't make sense that she would be fine with guys one sec, and saying "there's no way in hell" the next.

Not happy, Jan! emot-mad Or Joss...

Last edited by sharnii (09-15-2008 11:30:13 PM)

Offline

 

#30 | Back to Top09-16-2008 11:06:05 AM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1243
Website

Re: Stereotypes/Media Representations of Bisexuals

Re - Willow

I don't know if you can necessarily say that this is an inaccurate portrayal. There are real people who had heterosexual relationships that were for the most part healthy, who eventually never dated the opposite sex again and will tell you they are fully gay or lesbian despite their hetero pasts. Nor will they tell you they are bisexual.

How one defines their sexuality tends to be largely a personal affair - what is bisexual to one person may be homosexual to another person experiencing the same basic scenarios.


Flowers without names blooming in the field can only sway in the wind. But I was born with a destiny of roses, born to live in passion and glory.

http://www.dark-kingdom.org/Gallery/osrgbanner.PNG
Hat Mafia Member: Little Dark Poet

Offline

 

#31 | Back to Top09-16-2008 11:52:05 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: Stereotypes/Media Representations of Bisexuals

Which is really how it ought to be. It's sometimes hard to avoid categorizing someone you know as far as where they're preferences lie (she says x, but it's clear that she really wants y), but it's generally better to take someone's word. Or even *gasp*, just remain ignorant!


"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."
-Truck North
Honorary Hat Mafia Member

Offline

 

#32 | Back to Top09-17-2008 01:51:29 AM

sharnii
Pharaoh of Phanstuff
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 08-10-2008
Posts: 2416
Website

Re: Stereotypes/Media Representations of Bisexuals

Ashnod wrote: I don't know if you can necessarily say that this is an inaccurate portrayal. There are real people who had heterosexual relationships that were for the most part healthy, who eventually never dated the opposite sex again and will tell you they are fully gay or lesbian despite their hetero pasts. Nor will they tell you they are bisexual.

Fair comment, Ashnod - I take your point.
I guess, seeing as how one possible interpretation of Willow could be bi-ness, and she's a cool positive character, it would have been nice to see her as a positive portrayal of a bi in media (from my viewpoint). But she makes a great "now I am only a lesbian ta-da!" too. emot-keke

Offline

 

#33 | Back to Top09-17-2008 04:55:10 AM

dlaire
A Whole Orange
From: Poland
Registered: 04-08-2007
Posts: 2322

Re: Stereotypes/Media Representations of Bisexuals

sharnii wrote:

Ashnod wrote: I don't know if you can necessarily say that this is an inaccurate portrayal. There are real people who had heterosexual relationships that were for the most part healthy, who eventually never dated the opposite sex again and will tell you they are fully gay or lesbian despite their hetero pasts. Nor will they tell you they are bisexual.

Fair comment, Ashnod - I take your point.
I guess, seeing as how one possible interpretation of Willow could be bi-ness, and she's a cool positive character, it would have been nice to see her as a positive portrayal of a bi in media (from my viewpoint). But she makes a great "now I am only a lesbian ta-da!" too. emot-keke

That's just odd. I don't know how someone could pretend that his/her past relationships weren't real and it doesn't count. emot-confused It's like self-delusion, saying that past didn't matter and in addition, it's not pleasant to hear from ex.
Once my (male) friend made everything as if he loved one girl so much to ask her marry him and now he says he's a gay. emot-confused That girl feels stupid and deceived by him.
I've never been able to understand this 'I'm not bi/homosexual anymore' attitude, maybe it's because I know myself well enough to be sure I'm bi. Despite currently dating more often with girls than with boys I don't feel I'm more homosexual than before - I'm still in the middle.

{Edit: Tricky prepositions}

Last edited by dlaire (09-17-2008 04:58:54 AM)

Offline

 

#34 | Back to Top09-17-2008 08:16:37 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
Website

Re: Stereotypes/Media Representations of Bisexuals

Sexual orientation that differs from strictly hetero is much more acceptable today than it was twenty years ago, so it's easy to forget that for a lot of people growing up the idea of not being straight is horrifying. I never examined my sexuality closely until about two years ago, and I actually am straight. So for those who are not, there can be a lot of self-deception. Add to the mix that in women more than in men, sexual orientation itself is fluid and can change over the course of life.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that prior relationships don't matter because someone either realized that they were different, or in fact became different. But at the same time, I don't know that it's alright to demand that someone make a choice at some arbitrary moment and then stick with it. It smacks of that excuse-for-sex business again to me...


"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."
-Truck North
Honorary Hat Mafia Member

Offline

 

#35 | Back to Top09-17-2008 09:22:29 AM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1243
Website

Re: Stereotypes/Media Representations of Bisexuals

I don't think it's a matter of self-delusion, so much as a conscious choice (and for some, subconscious) that they prefer being lesbian or gay over heterosexual despite how good the hetero relationships were. Given the choice between a same sex lover and an opposite sex lover, they prefer the same sex lover and so internally they see their sexuality as lesbian or gay rather than bisexual.

Just because you had good hetero lovers in the past doesn't mean you will ever go back to having a hetero lover. Since you don't look at the opposite sex as potential lovers any longer, you think of yourself as gay or lesbian instead of bisexual, who likely would consider opposite sex lovers instead of same sex.

I'm not saying that everyone who is gay or lesbian feels this way, but I think in Willow's case, this is for the most part what happened and how Joss and Co. decided to portray her shift in sexuality.

Last edited by Ashnod (09-17-2008 09:22:56 AM)


Flowers without names blooming in the field can only sway in the wind. But I was born with a destiny of roses, born to live in passion and glory.

http://www.dark-kingdom.org/Gallery/osrgbanner.PNG
Hat Mafia Member: Little Dark Poet

Offline

 

#36 | Back to Top09-17-2008 07:12:45 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: Stereotypes/Media Representations of Bisexuals

Ashnod wrote:

There are real people who had heterosexual relationships that were for the most part healthy, who eventually never dated the opposite sex again and will tell you they are fully gay or lesbian despite their hetero pasts. Nor will they tell you they are bisexual.

How one defines their sexuality tends to be largely a personal affair - what is bisexual to one person may be homosexual to another person experiencing the same basic scenarios.

I tend to file it as less a personal decision and more a political decision, but that's because I'm pompous and judgmental like that, and have to pull back and remember it's not really my call.  But, yes, there is a definite strain of people who have positive sexua experience with both men and women, who decide to label themselves 'gay' and to adopt a position of ew! ick! I could never... despite yesterday's evidence, or perhaps even today's.

A friend of mine is very very gay in his public and businesss (big time Hollywood producer - without the 'big time' part, anyway), despite obvious reflex attraction to women and to many examples of the female form.  In more private situations, amongst people who've known him for years, or, say, with women he's trying to convince to sleep with him, he can't not cop to being bi.

I see this more often than not, anymore.  The public face, the business face, and the well, shit, everybody already knows face.  The people committing to those portrayals of themselves seem to believe it isn't hypocritical or self-effacing, and maybe it's not.  I can't shake the feeling it's a deliberate lie, et cetera, et judgmental cetera.  Homosexual lifestyle versus homo/hetero/bisexual... I dunno... being, I guess.  Maybe?

And I just got hit up by sisters - yes, blood siblings - on a shoot, because they assumed I'd be into that sort of thing.  Because, being bisexual means you're, y'know, down for anything, apparently.  And, much in the dlaire-a-few-posts-back vein, I ain't good-looking or fab enough to warrant this sort of random come on.  No further comment on that, but to say, if there'd been a wall I would have been banging my head against it.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

Offline

 

#37 | Back to Top09-19-2008 01:57:57 PM

Like_Autumn
Network Ninja
Registered: 07-18-2007
Posts: 639
Website

Re: Stereotypes/Media Representations of Bisexuals

I was watching House last night and there was a very touching scene between one of the female characters, nicknamed Thirteen, and a female patient. The episode dealt with feminism, regret, and changes. I looked online today, and apparently Thirteen is bisexual IN CANON. She's very pretty and femme (of course), but she's also a very likeable and sympathetic character who I can relate to. I was really hoping that the subtext had been more maintext, though. I'll just have to write a fanfic filling in the missing scenes etc-love

I suppose bisexuality is the "most acceptable" non-hetero sexuality that could be presented in the media, even though the character is pretty and feminine and obviously appeals to male viewers. But she has a personality, and femme bisexuals and lesbians are just as authentic as any others. I'm just glad to see that there seems to be more representation of bisexuals on mainstream TV, even if it is just to appeal to men. This only seems to be the case with women, though. I can't think of a bisexual male character (except that I firmly believe Shawn Spencer from Psych is bi, but that's just personal canon). Even if it's only a small step, having non-hetero characters on popular TV shows being portrayed in a fairly positive light is reassuring. Next I hope there will eventually be non-hetero people in commercials and other media, and that includes all of the LGBT. I mean, you don't even see interracial couples on TV even though they certainly exist, so it might take a while for LGBT people to be represented.

Last edited by Like_Autumn (09-19-2008 01:59:32 PM)


Number 1 Shadow Girl Fan

Offline

 

#38 | Back to Top09-19-2008 06:09:50 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2791

Re: Stereotypes/Media Representations of Bisexuals

Like_Autumn wrote:

I suppose bisexuality is the "most acceptable" non-hetero sexuality that could be presented in the media, even though the character is pretty and feminine and obviously appeals to male viewers.

If rather than even though, I'd say.  And that's through a veneer of straight male perspective, if anything.

Nonfemme, lesbian-who-can't-be-turned?  Bisexual man with a preference for men, or out and out gay man?  Woman with marked preference for women even if she is interested in some men, can be swung, but only if the narrative puts her in a place where she's falling for a specific guy (see Chasing Amy, May, et al).

Torchwood's Jack is still all it takes to make a lot of people nervous.

American/English-language television has come a ways since, say, Star Trek: TNG felt the need for Beverly Crusher to drop her FtM lover, Picard and Q to've done absolutely nothing in bed, and androgynous aliens to get properly genderboxed before the credits roll.  But, we ain't gone very far.

Last edited by Decrescent Daytripper (09-19-2008 07:19:13 PM)


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

Offline

 

#39 | Back to Top09-19-2008 06:33:38 PM

Like_Autumn
Network Ninja
Registered: 07-18-2007
Posts: 639
Website

Re: Stereotypes/Media Representations of Bisexuals

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

Like_Autumn wrote:

I suppose bisexuality is the "most acceptable" non-hetero sexuality that could be presented in the media, even though the character is pretty and feminine and obviously appeals to male viewers.

If rather than even though, I'd say.  And that's through a veneer of straight male perspective, if anything.

Nonfemme, lesbian-who-can't-be-turned?  Bisexual man with a preference for men, or out and out gay man?  Woman with marked preference for women even if she is interested in some men, can be swung, but only if the narrative puts her in a place where she's falling for a specific guy (see Chasing Amy, May, et al).

[i}Torchwood[/i]'s Jack is still all it takes to make a lot of people nervous.

American/English-language television has come a ways since, say, Star Trek: TNG felt the need for Beverly Crusher to drop her FtM lover, Picard and Q to've done absolutely nothing in bed, and androgynous aliens to get properly genderboxed before the credits roll.  But, we ain't gone very far.

I mixed up two meanings into that sentence. Basically, what I was trying to say, which you understood and pointed out, was that Bisexuality is presented in the media, but only because a feminine bisexual woman is an erotic subject for males. Right now, the character in question seems to have connected best with female characters, but it's possible she will end up with a man. I'd love to see her in a relationship with a female though. I suppose right now I'm just happy to have a likeable character who's bi, even if I know she's only there to appeal to the audience. I'd like to see a more even and realistic representation of all LGBT people, though it seems that it only works among attractive females, or as gay man there for comedic purposes. There was a bisexual male on Law & Order: SVU, but he was married to a woman and involved in s/m gay porn.

Still, even if it is just baby steps, I'll take it. There's always Logo if I want some GLBT representation, but even on that channel all the shows with lesbian or bisexual women are feminine, and I don't relate to them as much.


Number 1 Shadow Girl Fan

Offline

 

#40 | Back to Top09-20-2008 12:16:29 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Stereotypes/Media Representations of Bisexuals

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

I tend to file it as less a personal decision and more a political decision, but that's because I'm pompous and judgmental like that, and have to pull back and remember it's not really my call.  But, yes, there is a definite strain of people who have positive sexua experience with both men and women, who decide to label themselves 'gay' and to adopt a position of ew! ick! I could never... despite yesterday's evidence, or perhaps even today's.

I wish I didn't agree with this as much as I did. Having had sex or sex-related activities with straight-identified guys and lesbian-identified girls... on the one hand, I don't have the right to define others' identities, but... please, people, don't suck my dick one day and say you're not into guys the next.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

Offline

 

#41 | Back to Top09-21-2008 05:57:27 AM

dlaire
A Whole Orange
From: Poland
Registered: 04-08-2007
Posts: 2322

Re: Stereotypes/Media Representations of Bisexuals

ShatteredMirror wrote:

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

I tend to file it as less a personal decision and more a political decision, but that's because I'm pompous and judgmental like that, and have to pull back and remember it's not really my call.  But, yes, there is a definite strain of people who have positive sexua experience with both men and women, who decide to label themselves 'gay' and to adopt a position of ew! ick! I could never... despite yesterday's evidence, or perhaps even today's.

I wish I didn't agree with this as much as I did. Having had sex or sex-related activities with straight-identified guys and lesbian-identified girls... on the one hand, I don't have the right to define others' identities, but... please, people, don't suck my dick one day and say you're not into guys the next.

I have to agree with Shattered.

I undestand that someone could be afraid of being different than others and tries to be in typical relationship but it's just not mature and fair. Adults shouldn't act like that. I could understand: I tried to be with girls but now I'm sure they can't turn me on. I'm perfectly sure I'm a gay but I just don't find an excuse for somebody with 'no, it never happened' attitude.
I'm not sure if I made myself clear, it's quite subtle issue. emot-confused I just try to say that no one should say one day 'it's a love of my life' and another one 'it was nothing for me'. It's lack of maturity and responsibility. Sexuality doesn't matter at that point.


Like_Autumn wrote:

I suppose bisexuality is the "most acceptable" non-hetero sexuality that could be presented in the media

I wonder if it's possible to destroy a stereotype without creating another one. The L World showed that lesbians aren't ugly agressive feminists who act like a man but created another one. As Gombrowicz (Polish writer) said, there's only escape from shape to shape.

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB 1.2.23
© Copyright 2002–2008 PunBB
Forum styled and maintained by Giovanna and Yasha
Return to Empty Movement