This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#51 | Back to Top10-30-2007 01:39:40 AM

MissMocha
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From: Tallahassee, Fl
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Re: WTF. Shiori.

ShatteredMirror wrote:

Jellineck wrote:

New proposed social theory: At any point in a SKU-related topic, the subject will degenerate into arguing about Shiori. Ad Shirorium.

Does this need to join my signature? emot-gonk

Everytime Shiori comes up, I am reminded of Godwin's Law, to be quite honest. emot-mad


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And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
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#52 | Back to Top10-30-2007 02:12:14 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
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Re: WTF. Shiori.

morosemocha wrote:

Everytime Shiori comes up, I am reminded of Godwin's Law, to be quite honest.

See, I find that true in the 'tendency towards' sense, but much more positive.  Seems like a polarizing thing that's good for getting out of the way straight off.  Put your cards on the table, kinda thing, giving a sense of where everybody stands.  And it's nothing quite as serious as Nazis or such.  There's nobody's life or history at stake because some does or does not find Shiori interesting or likeable.  That said, wow! can it be polarizing!

I don't get the Shiori-hate entirely, it's true, but it's not like anybody's making up Shiori Was Right shirts.  Right?  Please tell me I didn't miss the Shiori Was Right t-shirts.


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#53 | Back to Top10-30-2007 04:10:52 PM

rhyaniwyn
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From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
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Re: WTF. Shiori.

Ashnod wrote:

Doesn't a good portion of Shiori's narration in the Black Rose Saga admit just that...?
I was under the impression she did it specifically to hurt Juri and/or try to escape Juri's shadow, and later regretted not doing it for herself, instead of doing it to wound her friend.

From an interpretive standpoint, simply because Shiori admits that in the Black Rose arc (in the elevator when all the duellists are delving into their subconscious motives and unadmitted-even-to-themselves feelings) does not directly imply that hurting Juri was a conscious motive of Shiori's when the actual "stealing" took place. 

In point of fact, I believe it supports the idea that she did not consciously, at the time, do it to hurt Juri.  Just like Wakaba didn't consciously walk around disgruntled about being 'just another face in the crowd', etc.  When pressed, Shiori later admits that she knows that her reasons were tainted and Wakaba can admit that she is sometimes angry to stand unnoticed in Utena's shadow.


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#54 | Back to Top10-30-2007 07:22:23 PM

SleepDebtFairy
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From: Washington DC
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2096
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Re: WTF. Shiori.

Almaser wrote:

Yasha and Frosty have given me an idea.
At the very heart of it, the debates and emotion over Shiori seem to stem from the problem that everyone takes her seriously. She's a polarising character, I'll admit, but so is every single other character in SKU. This thread has proven that - there's even ChuChu hate! emot-wink

So, maybe the trick is coming up with a General Theory of Shiori: understanding her personality motivation, which I think we have the information to do, and then poking fun at her.

So allow me to be the first to say -

Oh Shiori, your life: so hard! emot-tongue

(This post is intended as a light-hearted attempt to get everyone smiling about Shiori, even if they think she's a bitch. Remember, Anthy's a bitch too. As is Nanami. And Keiko. And Akio. And Juri. And Touga. And Tatsuya (srsly). And Wakaba. And [the author was found dead at his desk, a list of every character in Shoujo Kakumei Utena next to the computer, and suspicious nailbat-wounds on the back of his head. -Ed.]

I like that idea.. and I think Yasha may be right. I think Shiori fans are more likely to defend Shiori than light-heartedly bash/point out her flaws because elsewhere (but not here) there are so many people that just bash Shiori, so that's the problem. Although, I think there are people who bash Anthy, Akio, and Touga too, but I don't think they're bashed as much..

I like to jokingly bash any of the characters in the series, because lets face it, they're all pretty twisted, but we love them all anyway. However, I do admit that I always feel reluctant to poke fun at Shiori because I'm afraid fans will take it too seriously.

I hope it helps things if I say that I think that all of them are bitches, whores, and skanks, but we etc-love them all anyway. etc-love (I use those terms jokingly; I don't like to use those words in seriousness, usually, even in real-life)

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#55 | Back to Top11-01-2007 06:00:46 AM

Werekat
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 10-31-2007
Posts: 45

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Hmm... I very much like the idea that she wasn't consciously trying to hurt Jury when the whole drama happened, and that it is the Black Rose ring which brought those motivations out. "Cruelly innocent" - I had long been confused by this remark from Jury, because I didn't see just how, precisely, Shiori could be innocent. I never liked her precisely because she was fairly incompetent at what she did. But if her manipulation is unconscious - and her consolation of Jury was actually not a last twist, but very much a real attempt at trying to make a friend feel better - this is a completely different cup of tea. I still dislike her incompetence, but, heck, she's more of a victim than Jury is. Jury's had some success at knowing her own will, Shiori is at the mercy of subconscious impulses.

It's interesting, however, that she looks very much like a creature that is conscious of what she does. Maybe this is because she is shown tied with Jury and Ruka - both accomplished manipulators, who at least try to hide that they may not understand what they're doing. But this doesn't seem enough. I'm not sure why, really - any ideas?

Last edited by Werekat (11-01-2007 06:04:01 AM)


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#56 | Back to Top11-01-2007 02:48:03 PM

Ashnod
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Re: WTF. Shiori.

See...I just can't buy that she wasn't aware that her actions would cause pain. Even before the Black Rose saga, she has admitted:

shiori:  But I couldn't help but steal him from you.
shiori:  Did you know?
shiori:  Juri-san is in love with someone.
shiori:  But...
shiori:  ...it isn't you.
shiori:  So, I don't regret stealing him from you...
shiori:  ...because that's what I hoped for from my heart.

shiori:  You must hate me for being like this.

If she suspected Juri loved this boy (which she does by her own admission)  then unless she was the absolutely naive person on the planet (which she is not) she would have known that pursuing him would have consequences on her friendship with Juri and did it regardless.

The whole conversation with "the boy" is her lying to him about what she suspects Juri's feelings to be - this is a deliberate act of deceit on her part, as assuredly as she did the same with Ruka, to get what she wanted.  I just can't see this as being "innocent" in any fashion.

Edit: Juri is an accomplished manipulator? Just curious where you're feeling that out from.

Last edited by Ashnod (11-01-2007 02:50:38 PM)


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#57 | Back to Top11-01-2007 03:47:08 PM

Werekat
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 10-31-2007
Posts: 45

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Maybe the issue's in the translation. I can't remember the precise wording we had, but I seem to remember that it was somehow different. But even here, this seems to be an attempt to admit weakness rather than to attack Jury; the logic seems to be "I couldn't help it - I'm not at fault." What is the fault is not mentioned.

Anyway: I'm not saying Shiori's innocent. I'm saying she's not in control - this adds to her incompetence. But Jury, with her general dependence on reason, seems to let victims be victims, and tries her best not to add to the misery. It's a very peculiar kind of pity, and the fact that Jury's just a little bit above Shiori when dealing with her own emotions doesn't help the situation much.

As for manipulation: I see your point. It is very much possible that I chose the wrong word, because Jury utilizes her skill much more passively than most of the other manipulators in the series - mostly, in self-defense.

As far as I remember, there was a mention of the rather impressive intelligence network she has in the same episode where she scared the teacher stiff. I'll be the first to admit being frightening does not equal being informed (on the contrary, as I know first hand!), but there is often the matter that Jury knows what she needs to know, and, generally, she is the one who seems to lead the Council-outer world connection, dealing with teachers and all. It suits her to a tee: "It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it." Maybe this is a mistaken impression, but Jury seems to know most of what goes on in the school, though it is the menial stuff, mostly. She's the only one of the Council shown to be dealing with "mundane" issues - her student falling ill, as another example. You need a certain amount of social skill to do that.

She's the kind of manipulator that initially very honest people make. Her tactic consists of gathering information and then acting on it. Simple, and Really, no different than what Ruka does - except that Ruka uses this tactic much more ruthlessly, and to greater effect. Jury has never shown an ability to gain something from her peers through manipulation - but she does show a certain amount of resistance to their work. And, unlike most of the others, who know they're driven into a corner instinctively (like Sayonji), or even start to believe what is whispered into their ears (like Miki), Jury consciously knows that she's trapped, and is very angry about it. She admits to her losses, and at least starts on the whole "Know thyself" thing, perhaps, more than any other character.

I get the impression she is the kind of person that keeps mental files on people. And had she not been so subsumed by her own problems, I daresay we would have had the chance to see some social experiments on her part. She shows many a shrewd insight into the way people's minds work - she does not mistake innocence for wordliness (for lack of a better word), or vice versa. The innocent are innocent, the bastards are bastards - she sees it all quite clearly. But the fact that she can't change a thing seems to be the main thing driving Jury up the metaphorical wall.

So, to sum this all-too-long text up: Jury's good at seeing the webs of relationships - one half of what makes a good manipulator. The problem is that she also sees that what she wants does not get accomplished through pushing on those webs. Like so many people competent at sorting out side issues, she's an utter failure when it comes down to her own self. She knows she's pretty darn screwed, and doesn't know what to do with it, which hinders her from actively playing the game.

Or, as said before by someone, maybe I'm entirely too sleepy. emot-smile


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#58 | Back to Top11-01-2007 07:34:01 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
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Registered: 04-09-2007
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Re: WTF. Shiori.

Perhaps, naive, as opposed to "innocent," then?  I always took it as Shiori treating Juri (and herself) as a real person, and other people, not so much.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#59 | Back to Top11-01-2007 07:46:15 PM

Ragnarok
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From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
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Re: WTF. Shiori.

Ashnod wrote:

See...I just can't buy that she wasn't aware that her actions would cause pain. Even before the Black Rose saga, she has admitted:

shiori:  But I couldn't help but steal him from you.
shiori:  Did you know?
shiori:  Juri-san is in love with someone.
shiori:  But...
shiori:  ...it isn't you.
shiori:  So, I don't regret stealing him from you...
shiori:  ...because that's what I hoped for from my heart.

shiori:  You must hate me for being like this.

The thing is, how much of that can we be sure is fact? The Shiori who says she doesn't regret what she did is Juri's memories and/or imagination. The actual Shiori who shows up in Thorns of Death very clearly regrets her actions. Not that I'm absolving her of her actions, but there is an inconsistency there, and I don't think it's because Shiori is lying. When she's in Mikage's elevator she says that stealing the boy's affections made her feel more pathetic, so how could she not regret her actions? Likely it's Juri who's puttng those words in Shiori's mouth.

Either way, Shiori is innocent when it comes to Juri's actual feelings. She doesn't know in what way she has hurt Juri and continues to do so. Likewise, Juri says Utena is also cruelly innocent because she doesn't realize the source of Juri's pain either.


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#60 | Back to Top11-02-2007 12:11:53 AM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1243
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Re: WTF. Shiori.

Ragnarok wrote:

Ashnod wrote:

See...I just can't buy that she wasn't aware that her actions would cause pain. Even before the Black Rose saga, she has admitted:

shiori:  But I couldn't help but steal him from you.
shiori:  Did you know?
shiori:  Juri-san is in love with someone.
shiori:  But...
shiori:  ...it isn't you.
shiori:  So, I don't regret stealing him from you...
shiori:  ...because that's what I hoped for from my heart.

shiori:  You must hate me for being like this.

The thing is, how much of that can we be sure is fact? The Shiori who says she doesn't regret what she did is Juri's memories and/or imagination. The actual Shiori who shows up in Thorns of Death very clearly regrets her actions. Not that I'm absolving her of her actions, but there is an inconsistency there, and I don't think it's because Shiori is lying. When she's in Mikage's elevator she says that stealing the boy's affections made her feel more pathetic, so how could she not regret her actions? Likely it's Juri who's puttng those words in Shiori's mouth.

Either way, Shiori is innocent when it comes to Juri's actual feelings. She doesn't know in what way she has hurt Juri and continues to do so. Likewise, Juri says Utena is also cruelly innocent because she doesn't realize the source of Juri's pain either.

Well, as it is a letter from shiori to juri, we can assume its as true as shiori wants to admit or confess. (Minus the flashback of her whispering to the boy)


Flowers without names blooming in the field can only sway in the wind. But I was born with a destiny of roses, born to live in passion and glory.

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#61 | Back to Top11-02-2007 12:23:29 AM

Ragnarok
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From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
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Re: WTF. Shiori.

I don't think her letter specifically says she doesn't regret what she did? It doesn't make any sense with her (soon after) appearance in the series wishing to be Juri's friend once more. Further, the letter would seem to indicate that Shiori and the boy were still together, whereas they've already broken up by Thorns of Death. If the letter does say that Shiori doesn't regret her actions it must a lie, since she states otherwise to Mikage.


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#62 | Back to Top11-02-2007 12:32:43 AM

Werekat
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 10-31-2007
Posts: 45

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Naive... Doesn't seem to be the right word, still. Word-hunting, the greatest fun in writing, right. Conscious is more along the lines of what I had in mind.

Actually, I think Jury - almost in a tribute to her name - uses the word "innocent" in a halfway judicial kind of sense. Innocent as in not responsible for her own actions. Even though that's the worst kind of slap in the face, especially at Ohtori. "You can't help it, right. I believe you. You're still hurting me, but, heck, what can you do about it if you're not strong enough to stop?"

As a side note: anyone who's ever had that thrown at them knows how highly embarrassing it is. Anyone who's ever had to throw this at someone knows that this is very much a last resort, admitting either your own incompetence, or a lack of desire to try to help - or, in very rare cases (not in this one) it is the help, when thrown in at a crucial breaking point. It's also very much loaded with other meanings, all of which are rather painful. You're saying that the person is dependent, that they can't control themselves in things any responsible adult is supposed to, moreover, that you're so nice and good that you'll put up with it because they're totally hopeless and it's easier to ignore them than to work with them.

After that, the target either gets up and gets going - or, well, gets hurt abysmally, until the pain is too unbearable not to rebel. In Shiori's case this lasted for years, and might have lasted longer. She did get lucky, actually, that the Black Rose helped the inevitable breakthrough.


"...But magic has a habit of lying low, like a rake in the grass." - T. Pratchett

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#63 | Back to Top11-02-2007 01:28:58 AM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Ragnarok wrote:

I don't think her letter specifically says she doesn't regret what she did?

Maybe I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt, but I'd always interpreted that letter was a defiance to hide her pain more. We all do the sort of things, cutting off noses to spite faces. By telling Juri she doesn't care that she might have hurt her, she's hurting Juri more, yes. Not because she neccessairily wants to hurt Juri, but because there's the sense of bravado, and boosting of the self confidence. She may not have succeded in bringing Juri down, but surely, by being as hard as Juri, Shiori has brought herself up? "You might think I care about you, but I did this horribly shitty thing to you, and I know it hurts, but I don't care." She does care; otherwise she wouldn't have bothered to say or write anything. The fact that she's trying to hurt her proves just how concerned she is with what Juri thinks of her. Obvously, she's still thinking in the third grade mindset -next, there'll be some throwing of frogs on the playground.

She says it all over the place, all the time. She wanted to hurt Juri, to bring her down to the level that she herself thought she was at. She spends so much time thinking about Juri she can't see the forest for the trees.


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And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
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#64 | Back to Top11-02-2007 09:29:57 AM

Nocturnalux
Qualified Duellist
From: Portugal
Registered: 09-10-2007
Posts: 741

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Dross wrote:

Reason 2: One of the reasons so many seem to like Shiori is because they are able to identify with the part of themselves that wants to destroy someone who they perceive as "more special" than they are, or seem to be getting undue attention.

I'd like to comment on this from perhaps a slightly different manner than has been done so far in this thread. I do believe that one of the reasons why people tend to dislike Shiori is because they seem something of their negative side mirrored in their actions but there is something else that often gets ignored and that the fact that Shiori's manipulation, unlike say Akio's, Touga's and to some extent Mikage's, have a direct correlative in everyday life. Of course there are people like Akio and I have met a few Tougas but these are characters that are deeply ingrained in the fabric of fiction, were they to become real I am sure that some changes would be in order so that they could retain their personalities and carry on their agendas. In other words, in real life Touga would probably be less flippant and Akio would surely find a way of remaining a manipulative individual but his manipulation would obviously not include duels and upside down castles.
The case of Shiori seems to be very different, it lacks glamour and can easily be transported to one's every day life almost point by point. And that, I think, is why it resonates so deeply with some people, be it in the form of hatred, understanding or sympathy: Shiori could very well be the girl that sits in class in front of you, the shift from character to person would not entail any major modification in behaviour. I could be wrong in this but it might be the realistic traits in Shiori's personality that elicit such strong reactions as opposed to the glamorous "larger than life" moves of someone like Akio. It's easy to be charmed and even admire Akio's character, and there is nothing wrong in that; his actions are so perfected to strike just the right chord that many fans cannot help but find him wonderful. His charater oozes cool-ness and that is in many ways alluring. Shiori, however, is "blood and broken bones", her tactics are raw and many have fallen prey to them or have employed them in real life. I never had a highly handsome man pulling the strings on me (Akio), not did I ever have a cuter than cute counselour taking me down an elevator to confess my darkest secrets (Mikage, and if I sound disappointed at the impossibility of this ever happening is because I *am* emot-wink) but I have hurt people that I loved because I needed to assert myself as an individual and I have been stabbed in the back by people I cared for simply because they were in a position to do so.

Personally I do not hate Shiori. Ironically enough my pet peeve in the series is arguably one of the less harmful characters and one that gets preciously little screen time: Tokiko. Now there is someone I do hate and she doesn't actually do anything wrong, compared to the virtually everyone else she is not even remotely evil. Still I dislike her profoundly for reasons that would be off topic to go into here, I'll just conclude by saying that we all have different preferances even with the series and that is actually a good thing. So we just need more hugs. emot-keke

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#65 | Back to Top11-02-2007 04:28:46 PM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1243
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Re: WTF. Shiori.

Ragnarok wrote:

I don't think her letter specifically says she doesn't regret what she did? It doesn't make any sense with her (soon after) appearance in the series wishing to be Juri's friend once more. Further, the letter would seem to indicate that Shiori and the boy were still together, whereas they've already broken up by Thorns of Death. If the letter does say that Shiori doesn't regret her actions it must a lie, since she states otherwise to Mikage.

shiori:  So, I don't regret stealing him from you...

That's from the Utena Translation Project, I believe. The US version said something like:

shiori: That's what I stole him from you, and I have absolutely no regrets about doing it.

Both versions say this, to the best of my knowledge.

I think this is actually Shiori being honest, as it is written at a time when she is not near Juri and feels victorious over her. Her words to Mikage in the elevator indicate, to me at least, that while she isn't regretful about actually doing it, she wishes she had taken him for her own happiness rather than to hurt Juri.


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#66 | Back to Top11-04-2007 09:55:42 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 589

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Towards a General Theory of Shiori. (I'll be that would sound neat in Latin).

If X is in (love/lust/crush/obsession) with Y who does not reciprocate due to being (unwilling/unable/confused/afraid/having other priorities) fans will hate Y because they often personally remember the pain of loving an unresponsive someone to the point of hating them, but don't remember as acutely how difficult it can be to be Y.

After all there are zillions of Love Poems addressed to frigid objects of desire and very few written from the viewpoint of aforesaid frigid objects.

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#67 | Back to Top11-04-2007 10:06:58 PM

alexielnet
Unfulfilled Juror
From: Arizona
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 236
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

brian wrote:

Towards a General Theory of Shiori. (I'll be that would sound neat in Latin).

If X is in (love/lust/crush/obsession) with Y who does not reciprocate due to being (unwilling/unable/confused/afraid/having other priorities) fans will hate Y because they often personally remember the pain of loving an unresponsive someone to the point of hating them, but don't remember as acutely how difficult it can be to be Y.

Unless Y is a huge emo jerk who is just really mean because he can't deal with his own drama. Also, he has an old man voice. Also a bad haircut. Also, ass ugly clothes. Then he can be hated for who he is, not who he doesn't like. Yeah, I'm thinking of a specific Non-Utena character.  <edit>I'm kidding by the way, so if you like the character I am talking about, I'm sorry if that sounded unfair. It kind of is. Except the part about the clothes. I mean, really. You can't tell me those clothes aren't fugly. </edit>

brian wrote:

After all there are zillions of Love Poems addressed to frigid objects of desire and very few written from the viewpoint of aforesaid frigid objects.

That is a very good point.

Last edited by alexielnet (11-04-2007 10:09:21 PM)

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#68 | Back to Top11-12-2007 12:27:30 PM

IceQueenChigusa
Tenjou Tilter
From: A place not so amazing.
Registered: 11-12-2007
Posts: 88

Re: WTF. Shiori.

well i can say this much.
Her english voice got on my nerves so badly.
Her character doesnt bother me,i mean in the japanese version i could stand her
But shes the only person in the english version i cant listen to.

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#69 | Back to Top11-12-2007 12:55:53 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

alexielnet wrote:

brian wrote:

After all there are zillions of Love Poems addressed to frigid objects of desire and very few written from the viewpoint of aforesaid frigid objects.

That is a very good point.

It is, and a very interesting one.  I guess because being loved (and not returning it) is not as emotionally intense an experience as loving?  I can only think of one poem offhand that's clearly from the POV of a "frigid object of desire" -- "The Nymph's Reply," by Sir Walter Raleigh -- and that is specifically written as a response to Christopher Marlowe's much earlier "The Passionate Shepherd To His Love." 

The other poems I can think of that might fit are more abstract.  Robert Frost occasionally wrote from the POV of someone who didn't appreciate the "love" lavished on him by nature -- I'm thinking of poems like "The Most of It" -- but that isn't really what you meant, is it?  I'll post if I think of any more.

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#70 | Back to Top11-12-2007 04:27:22 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4694

Re: WTF. Shiori.

IceQueenChigusa wrote:

well i can say this much.
Her english voice got on my nerves so badly.
Her character doesnt bother me,i mean in the japanese version i could stand her
But shes the only person in the english version i cant listen to.

I've seen a lot of people who can't stand her English voice, as well as a lot of people who can't stand her voice in Japanese. It makes me wonder what the perfect voice for her would be if none of the above are working.

By the way, who'd have guessed that it would be possible for you guys to have a discussion about Shiori without me having to say anything? emot-tongue

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#71 | Back to Top01-11-2008 04:25:48 PM

beautifulpanther
Qualified Duellist
From: Austria
Registered: 05-01-2007
Posts: 795
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Re: WTF. Shiori.

uhm... I'm a big Juri-fangirl (as most of you will know) and I dig Juri x Shiori as a coupling... because it's so... difficult.

I wouldn'T say that I hate Shiori. Without Juri by her side she would be just an empty character, like Juri would be empty without Shiori's poison, right?

Both characters have a dangerous symbiosis and well, Ruka seems to work out like a catalysator for them, but in the end they're connected.

that's why i also must admit that I didn't like Shiori that much in the movie, it explained some details but her character was just blown out of all proportions there. In the series she was simply more human.

damn... it's complicated to describe in second language *curses*

ok... what am I going to say right now... *huffs*

If you look at Shiori as person in general she has pretty much complexes and she's one of a many. Pretty invisible, if you ask me. She wouldn't be that intruiging, plotting, hurting, manipulating and desperated if she would be alone with herself. Well... maybe desperated and longing for some attention like most of us would do.

Juri as a person in general without Shiori would be declared as a... mary sue? She has everything, she's a master in everything, she's beautiful and such. Shiori gives her that trauma which makes Juri an interesting and visibly hurt character.

so... Better we got a person we love to hate than a person we hate to love...

nonsense I know. it's just difficult to translate what I want to say emot-mad;

Last edited by beautifulpanther (01-11-2008 04:27:19 PM)


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Bianca   *1989 - +14.09.2007

"A duel against a feather has nothing to do with provocation or letting you look like a fool. Duelling the feather, the essence of all art and truth written down on paper, is a duel against your inner self to find security and cognition" (©Octavian)

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#72 | Back to Top01-11-2008 05:22:39 PM

st0dad
Ohtori Paramouri
From: Andover, MA
Registered: 09-20-2007
Posts: 91
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Re: WTF. Shiori.

I love Shiori's English voice actress....I think she sounds more real than many of the others, like when she asks Utena and Anthy to visit because "I...I don't have a roommate."

the way she says it, makes you feel bad for her, like she really is misunderstood. That's how I felt at first. And when she follows Juri around, looking all guilty and trying to get Juri to show some emotions, I was all "poor thing! Juri, give her a chance!"


And then in the elevator, her voice changes and deepens when she hisses out, "I hate Juri." and you're all "wait...wait what?"


So that's why I think her voice actress contributes to her character. The english one, at least.



And on the pro/anti shiori...eh, I just don't like her...^.^;;;


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ChuChu: "Around the world I've traveled, strolling trough dozens of countries and thousands of lands, taking my time to feed my knowledge with the wisdom that folklore and history brings along."

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#73 | Back to Top01-11-2008 05:26:53 PM

beautifulpanther
Qualified Duellist
From: Austria
Registered: 05-01-2007
Posts: 795
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Re: WTF. Shiori.

when it comes to actresses... well, japanese Shiori sounds all whiney and with the time it gets annoying.

Her english voice... well, it's more alive if you ask me but it's a little too deep for my taste.

But the most ridiculous thing it that I love her german voice. it's in the right tone, surprisingly alive (you have to think about the fact that german synchs tend to speak VERY monotone and lame) and not too deep like in english edition.

maybe i get the chance to cut a sequence with german Shiori. DVD has a disgusting copy-protection and you get the clips without sound ;__;


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Bianca   *1989 - +14.09.2007

"A duel against a feather has nothing to do with provocation or letting you look like a fool. Duelling the feather, the essence of all art and truth written down on paper, is a duel against your inner self to find security and cognition" (©Octavian)

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#74 | Back to Top01-11-2008 06:28:28 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

I have noticed people seem to be drawn to the difficulty of a relationship between Juri and Shiori. There's a lot of bad history, a lot of bitterness and jealousy, and they don't even seem to be very connected as far as interests. (Shiori takes up fencing but never expressed an interest prior to that.)

I guess in that it makes sense, not a lot of the other popular relationships would be that complicated and vicious. I guess the closest one would be Touga and Saionji, but people on the whole seem to relate to them less so I guess it doesn't make as much sense. Saionji and Wakaba seems to be pretty popular in fics and such, but really there's not much to say about that besides 'They bicker a lot at first but then live happily ever after being ridiculous adoring mushballs. etc-love'

As much as people enjoy Juri and Shiori as a subject of discussion though, would anyone want a relationship like that? emot-gonk


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#75 | Back to Top01-11-2008 08:41:10 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 589

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Giovanna wrote:

As much as people enjoy Juri and Shiori as a subject of discussion though, would anyone want a relationship like that? emot-gonk

I get the impression that they want it. They probably had a relationship in the first place because it gave them security and they almost deliberately make each other miserable because they are trying to work out their own sense of selfhood by tormenting each other.

Just opinion but I think Shiori's English dub is one of the best in the series.

Last edited by brian (01-11-2008 08:43:30 PM)

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