I think that's an interesting and thoughtful analysis. I do see a lot of people on the internet who think that Shiori is basically the devil and is the most evil character ever. Firstly, they all need to give Akio more credit. He works hard to be an evil bastard dammit!  Secondly, think you're right in saying that some of the hatred toward Shiori is the result of people not wanting to relate to a character who is insecure with serious self-esteem issue, even though everyone has issues like this at some point.

Malacoda wrote:

I think there's one more element that needs to be taken into account why some people dislike Shiori: Juri. People like Juri so they take her words at face value and assume Shiori is the root of Juri's pain (but seriously, Juri's only the victim of miscommunication and her own self-destructive behaviors).

THIS. Especially since some Juri fans like to see her as an innocent, victimized goddess who's only fault is giving a damn about icky mean Shiori oh noez. Kind of like the Touga fangirls who refuse to see him as anything other than a beeeewtiful prince, even though he has some glaring nasty traits.

Sort of OT, but am I the only one who gets uneasy when I see fangirls splooging over Ruka as a truly noble, good character who freed Juri from icky Shiori despite the fact that's he's just as much of an arrogant douche canoe as everyone else? Especially since he sexually assaulted her and may or may not have forced her to have sex with him (depending on how you interpret the car)

that's very true.. Shiori must have her reasons for being the way she was. I think in the movie, since Akio killed himself, they had no great villain around to add suspense to end (though Akio does make his reappearance)

Juri is such a noble character, it hurts to see her so cruelly manipulated & harmed by Shiori. I actually didn't like Juri when I first started watching the series, because she seemed so cold and detached from everything. when she slapped Anthy I couldn't believe it, but I see similarities between Anthy & Shiori now.. small ones, lol, but, Anthy had been hurt in the past (and series-present, too), and she reacted at times in similar ways. near the ending, what Anthy does to Utena, is sort of what Shiori had done to Juri in small doses over the course of the series. but Shiori is malicious..

so yeah I used to hate Shiori too but I think she really did love Juri on some level, even if her love was overpowered by her envy?
not that Juri was perfect either, she was too detached and maybe even proud to confess her feelings to Shiori (which is what I'm guessing Shiori really wanted, too?)
like somebody above said, a lot of their tragedy was a failure to communicate

Last edited by artemis88 (06-06-2011 11:34:48 PM)

*hides his Shiori Death Advocates membership card*

Okay, I admit it -- series!Shiori doesn't deserve all the hate.

MOVIE!Shiori, on the other hand...

I have a hard time imagining how anyone could hate Shiori over Ruka -stealing someone who you think is someone's love interest when you were a young teenager and not reciprocating a crush?  BURN AND DIE.  Forcing himself physically on same girl- throwing her up against a fekking wall, and forcing a kiss- Oh.  He must have done it because he LOVED her, and couldn't control himself.  That fact that these explanations reek of rape apologia notwithstanding.  I enjoy Ruka as a character, and love dissecting him and his motives, but just like with Saionji, a big part of that fangirling is dependent on me acknowledging that while Ruka may be a complicated and multidimensional ass, he's still an ass.  It's one of the reason's Juri could never be with him, besides the gender barrier, and why I'm filled with disgust at the thought of them as a couple.

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

I have a hard time imagining how anyone could hate Shiori over Ruka -stealing someone who you think is someone's love interest when you were a young teenager and not reciprocating a crush?

Sorry, let me just jump in to point out that Ruka and Brown-Haired-Boy-From-the-Flashbacks are different characters. Unless you want to make a case that they are, of course!.

Dallbun wrote:

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

I have a hard time imagining how anyone could hate Shiori over Ruka -stealing someone who you think is someone's love interest when you were a young teenager and not reciprocating a crush?

Sorry, let me just jump in to point out that Ruka and Brown-Haired-Boy-From-the-Flashbacks are different characters. Unless you want to make a case that they are, of course!.

How did I imply that they were?  Shiori went out with brown haired boy because she thought Juri cared for him and even when she found out about Juri's feelings for her did not reciprocate them.  I was listing Shori's "crimes" there, not Ruka's.  Replace the word "over" with "versus" or "as opposed to" or "more than" and you'll get what my intended statement was.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (06-08-2011 12:39:57 AM)

Dallbun wrote:

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

How did I imply that they were?  Shiori went out with brown haired boy because she thought Juri cared for him and even when she found out about Juri's feelings for her did not reciprocate them.  I was listing Shori's "crimes" there, not Ruka's.  Replace the word "over" with "versus" or "as opposed to" or "more than" and you'll get what my intended statement was.

Ah, sorry. The way the - was placed just made it look like you were saying the Ruka incident = the stealing incident.

I have a horrible habit of abusing and misusing hyphens -I just put them wherever I feel like a pause but don't want to bother with a comma.   Commas are lame.

Malacoda wrote:

As far as movie!Shiori goes...why do people think she's more villain-like than her series counterpart? Besides having conversations with Touga and showing off video relating to Akio's death, she doesn't do anything her series counterpart hasn't done. Both movie!Shiori and series!Shiori motivate Juri into dueling. If you believe movie!Shiori's transformation into a car is analogous to a ride in Mikage's elevator, both have gone against Utena has black rose duelists.

Fans need to take a moment to THINK.

To play devil's advocate... I'd suppose it comes from a line of logic that views her as such not because her actions are necessarily "more evil", but because she comes off more obviously as being so.

For example, IMO from the series her most pointed act of cruelty is the scene in ep17 where she takes Juri's sword. But despite it being Shiori at her worst, it is brought about as a result of her ride in the Mikage elevator. After that, from my impression of things she still takes pride in knowing Juri's secret, but doesn't necessarily go out of her way to flaunt that knowledge itself to Juri or even necessarily to others... at least not in an obviously aggressive manner.

In the movie however, she has knowledge of the duels (as well as her picture in Juri's locket) from the get-go, and actively (I.E more obviously) seems to take pleasure in toying with Juri's feelings without the need for Mikage's elevator to bring her darkest self to the surface. To me, that makes her more of a villain than her series counterpart.

Those are excellent points, Chrome!

However I've just thought of something that may seem a little weird but I think it makes sense.

Movie!Shiori, at least how I interpret it, starts out with slightly nobler goals than series!Shiori. Series!Shiori wants to boost to ego, feel important, be special etc (...now I'm suddenly tempted to explore the parallels between Shiori and Wakaba) and since Juri is her ultimate measuring stick of what is perfect, she tries to be better than Juri. Movie!Shiori, on the other hand, has very different circumstances so her goals are different.

Movie!Shiori just wants a prince. However, she knows very damn well that the prince is dead so her goal is to build a prince out of Juri. To me, this point makes movie!Shiori a slightly better character than series!Shiori and (in a strange way) is a commentary on the fans who like to "prince-ify" Juri.

But then Utena shows up and proves that the prince isn't quite dead yet and we all know what happens to movie!Shiori from there.

poetoffire wrote:

I think the women in the series are just as creepy and messed up as the men, but they're reacting to different gender roles they're forced into.  True, there's no female Touga or Akio, but it's not right to dismiss the problems of people like Miki, Saionji, Tsubawaki, and the Onion Prince because they're dealing with masculine roles in unhealthy ways versus the women dealing with feminine roles in unhealthy ways.  It seems a double standard.

Most of us here don't hold any personal ire for the male characters, only frustration for the forgiveness or sugar coating most fans give them in regards to their faults.  That Shiori is still one of those virulently hated characters in the series, while characters like Ruka, Touga, and Saionji get "woobified" or turned into sekrit-princes-all-along by many in the fandom, just more commonly outside this forum, is a double standard that's still present.

Many here don't dismiss the male character's problems, we are only saying that they way they are dealing with them, their negative attributes, are far more harmful than what many of the more demonized females in the series actions are.

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Most of us here don't hold any personal ire for the male characters, only frustration for the forgiveness or sugar coating most fans give them in regards to their faults.  That Shiori is still one of those virulently hated characters in the series, while characters like Ruka, Touga, and Saionji get "woobified" or turned into sekrit-princes-all-along by many in the fandom, just more commonly outside this forum, is a double standard that's still present.

Many here don't dismiss the male character's problems, we are only saying that they way they are dealing with them, their negative attributes, are far more harmful than what many of the more demonized females in the series actions are.

I wasn't saying that as a blanket statement.  I should have made it clearer I was reacting to the earlier:

artemis88 wrote:

he's vile.. all of the men in this series are vile, save perhaps Miki and Movie!Touga

As to the demonization of woman and why this may occur, you do find that generally in fandoms there is an extension of the virgin/whore dichotomy that either tends to embrace the female characters as perfect or dismiss them as boring/manipulative bitches.  Broody, antisocial liars with dark pasts are the epitome of cool as men and given venom as women.

Personally, when I watched the series I had the hardest time removing my own dislike and relation through memories and actual people from Saionji, Shiori, and Touga.  Now that I've watched it again and immersed myself in essays and discussions, I've let go of my knee-jerk hatred of Saionji and begun to understand Shiori and Touga fully.  I still, however, dislike the latter two.

I don't believe it is a crime to dislike a character or like a character, only to not make an attempt to grasp the complexities of them and base your affections on that.

I think if you sugarcoat literally any character in Utena you've totally missed the point.  Even Dios.

Last edited by poetoffire (06-16-2011 11:08:49 AM)