This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#1 | Back to Top05-28-2012 10:05:23 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
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Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

While most post series fanfics go on to show Utena being in a hospital (wounded) or a mental institution (insane) post Duel called Revolution, does anyone else but myself ever think that Utena might end up abandoning her womanhood after having her femininity repeatedly bashed/questioned in the duel, up to her very last scene?

Script from ep 38:

Akio:  You are my true princess.
Akio:  Swords no longer suit you.
Akio:  I shall keep this sword. And from this day forward, I will protect you.

<Skip long drama>

Akio:  A sword isn't meant for a girl to wave around like that.

<skip>

Akio:  ...you should no longer be just a pure soul who wants to be a Prince.
Akio:  Dresses don't go with swords.

<skip more verbal  bitch slapping>

Akio:  I have a fiancee, but that didn't stop you. (slut)

<intense bitch slapping>

Akio:  That's right. You didn't even try to understand Anthy.
Akio:  In the end, you had your hands full just thinking about yourself.
Akio:  How cute. You're a good woman. (good bitch)
Akio:  You should stay a girl.

Script from ep 39:

Anthy:  You remind me of the Dios I once loved.
Anthy:  But you can't become my Prince.
Anthy:  Because you're a girl.
Utena:  Hime...Himemiya...

<SKIP LONG DRAMA>

Dios:  You can't do it. You're a girl, aren't you?

<More thinly-veiled bitchslapping by Dios/Akio>

Dios:  I shall give you a kiss as your reward.
Dios:  This is your consolation. (bitch)

<SKIP LONG DRAMA>

Utena (believing she failed):  I really...couldn't become a Prince.
Utena:  I'm sorry, Himemiya. Sorry for ending up just a make-believe Prince...
Utena:  Forgive me  (for not being a boy)

(THAT IS HER LAST SCENE IN THE SHOW)

Had Anthy failed in immediately finding Utena post duel, had Utena then spent years and on stuck with the womanhood = weak idea that was blow beaten into her by Akio (and Anthy, and the Million Swords that presumably rushed her), I see this "failed girl prince" having no choice but to "revolutionize" herself by abandoning her womanhood altogether.  The Movie, which is said to express implicitly  the ideas that the anime hadn't made explicit, showed Movie-Utena cross dressing as a boy post trauma of losing Movie-Touga - I think anime Utena had a good chance of really going through a sex-change (which is what she did in my fic Seinen Kakumei Utena http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=3026) unless someone was there to stop her in time.

What'd you guys think?

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (05-28-2012 11:23:45 AM)


(SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Completed as of May 12, 2018) / (PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#2 | Back to Top05-28-2012 01:17:22 PM

satyreyes
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From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

Hmm.  First off, let me confess that I haven't read Seinen Kakumei Utena yet -- I almost never read fic, even very good fic -- so I'm only responding here to the idea of Utena having a sex change, not to your story where it happens.  There are a lot of plot ideas that I really don't see that can be made to make perfect sense in a well-written fic.  But as far as the idea, color me skeptical.

I would differ with you about at least a couple of the assumptions you make above.

- Does Utena buy the lie, fed to her by Akio and Dios and Anthy, that only boys can be princes?
You believe yes.  My gut says no.  Practically everyone in the series tells Utena that girls can't be princes, yet the only time we see her come close to acceding to that idea is in episode 11, when Touga convinces her that she'd rather be a princess.  But episode 11 is followed by episode 12.  So we have seen Utena be psychologically resilient: she responds to loss by retreating into femininity (not masculinity), but is soon called back to herself.  I think a similar outcome is very plausible after the final episode of the show.  Utena definitely has a complicated relationship with masculinity, but we never see her wish to be a boy -- and I don't see any text that supports your reading of her final line, which seems to me to be about not being strong enough or not being a good enough friend, not about not being a boy.  (As an aside, movie Utena cross-dresses -- well, yeah, so does series Utena.  That's nothing new.)

- More fundamentally: Will Utena still even want to be a prince when she wakes up?
You assume yes.  My gut says no.  In fact, my gut says that Utena hasn't been trying to be a prince for about two episodes by the end of the show.  Princes rescue innocent damsels.  They don't ordinarily rescue witches, particularly not witches who have stabbed them in the back.  In spite of her final lines, Utena's actions in the last episode are not consistent with those of a prince; they're consistent with those of a devoted friend, which the series explicitly contrasts with a prince by showing how Dios saves strangers while neglecting his sister.  Anthy is no longer a princess or damsel in distress to Utena, but a friend.   I don't think Utena will ever stop wanting to do good, but I think that once this moment of immediate and devastating loss passes, Utena will abandon the idea that she needs to be a prince to do good.  This is part of passing into adulthood.

Just my couple of cents. emot-smile

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#3 | Back to Top05-28-2012 01:54:25 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4412

Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

satyreyes wrote:

Hmm.  First off, let me confess that I haven't read Seinen Kakumei Utena yet -- I almost never read fic, even very good fic -- so I'm only responding here to the idea of Utena having a sex change, not to your story where it happens.  There are a lot of plot ideas that I really don't see that can be made to make perfect sense in a well-written fic.  But as far as the idea, color me skeptical.

I would differ with you about at least a couple of the assumptions you make above.

- Does Utena buy the lie, fed to her by Akio and Dios and Anthy, that only boys can be princes?
You believe yes.  My gut says no.  Practically everyone in the series tells Utena that girls can't be princes, yet the only time we see her come close to acceding to that idea is in episode 11, when Touga convinces her that she'd rather be a princess.  But episode 11 is followed by episode 12.  So we have seen Utena be psychologically resilient: she responds to loss by retreating into femininity (not masculinity), but is soon called back to herself.  I think a similar outcome is very plausible after the final episode of the show.  Utena definitely has a complicated relationship with masculinity, but we never see her wish to be a boy -- and I don't see any text that supports your reading of her final line, which seems to me to be about not being strong enough or not being a good enough friend, not about not being a boy.  (As an aside, movie Utena cross-dresses -- well, yeah, so does series Utena.  That's nothing new.)

- More fundamentally: Will Utena still even want to be a prince when she wakes up?
You assume yes.  My gut says no.  In fact, my gut says that Utena hasn't been trying to be a prince for about two episodes by the end of the show.  Princes rescue innocent damsels.  They don't ordinarily rescue witches, particularly not witches who have stabbed them in the back.  In spite of her final lines, Utena's actions in the last episode are not consistent with those of a prince; they're consistent with those of a devoted friend, which the series explicitly contrasts with a prince by showing how Dios saves strangers while neglecting his sister.  Anthy is no longer a princess or damsel in distress to Utena, but a friend.   I don't think Utena will ever stop wanting to do good, but I think that once this moment of immediate and devastating loss passes, Utena will abandon the idea that she needs to be a prince to do good.  This is part of passing into adulthood.

Just my couple of cents. emot-smile

Ditto on evurythang.  Could not have said it better.

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#4 | Back to Top05-28-2012 03:02:19 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
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Re: Possibility of Utena becoming a man post series?

Hi Satyreyes:

It's okay if you don't read fanfics; but perhaps my first post is not precisely worded enough, that you seem to misunderstand it in very significant ways. emot-keke

- Does Utena buy the lie, fed to her by Akio and Dios and Anthy, that only boys can be princes?
You believe yes.

Umm . . . I don't exactly believe that, and I'll elaborate on why in the coming part.