This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#26 | Back to Top11-23-2006 09:06:29 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Ohtori Academy, the Untold Story

Archambeau wrote:

It's very fitting that in creating the Black Rose Duelists, a narrowing of perspective is required -- Mikage, the tunnel-visioned "natural scientist," as prototype.  Refine your goals enough and it wouldn't take too much deliberation to decide to do something as bizarre as dueling.

That's basically what happens to the Black Rose Duellists isn't it? They just become completely focussed on the one object of their lives that wears away at their mind more than anything else and that allows them to be manipulated into duelling.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#27 | Back to Top11-23-2006 09:44:40 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
Website

Re: Ohtori Academy, the Untold Story

You see the stars better in your peripheral vision, because the part of your eye that picks up images in the periphery is richer in light-sensing cells, where the center is more devoted to color. Focus your eyes too much on what's directly in front of you, creating in effect tunnel vision, and you won't see many of the stars around you.

...sorry. Took his metaphor and ran with it.


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#28 | Back to Top11-23-2006 10:25:17 PM

Sevelle
Yaoi Pet #2
From: Virginia the Great
Registered: 11-07-2006
Posts: 1615

Re: Ohtori Academy, the Untold Story

My brain hurts from reading all of this. emot-confused Yet still it leaves for more questions.


sometimes you make me feel
like I’m living at the edge of the world
"it's just the way I smile"
you said

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#29 | Back to Top11-23-2006 11:58:14 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Ohtori Academy, the Untold Story

Giovanna wrote:

You see the stars better in your peripheral vision, because the part of your eye that picks up images in the periphery is richer in light-sensing cells, where the center is more devoted to color. Focus your eyes too much on what's directly in front of you, creating in effect tunnel vision, and you won't see many of the stars around you.

...sorry. Took his metaphor and ran with it.

Again, the board makes what I learned in psychology class relevant to my life. Does this mean that my education is important, or just that we talk about the randomest stuff on this board?


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#30 | Back to Top11-24-2006 06:47:02 AM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Ohtori Academy, the Untold Story

Sevelle wrote:

My brain hurts from reading all of this. emot-confused Yet still it leaves for more questions.

I wouldn't sweat the details too much. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/spatulasama/sweatdrop.gif

I suspect that most of the members who post long detailed messages are either Uni students or have 120+ IQs, I myself have only scored a lousy 95 on my last IQ test but personally I feel they discriminate against those who are quite smart but have 'slow processers' as speed (mental and physical) is one of biggest weak points.

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#31 | Back to Top11-24-2006 11:54:28 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Ohtori Academy, the Untold Story

I'm a university student and apparently have a very high IQ and yet sometimes these posts still make my brain hurt.

IQ tests are arbitrary and highly inaccurate. I've taken a number of different ones and my results have sat in a range of approximately 40 points.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#32 | Back to Top11-24-2006 11:59:45 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Fandom
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8797
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Re: Ohtori Academy, the Untold Story

I have a very high IQ and I similarly think they're a load of bullpoopy.

I'm not a university student though. I was accepted, though, so I think that counts.

For one thing, they vary so much based on the age of the person taking it that timed properly, you'll score higher or lower than you should. Second they test stupid things, ultimately proving you have certain talents, sure, but they neglect a whole gigantic range of potential arenas in which a person can be intelligent. I'll put more faith in standardized tests of intelligence when they can account for wisdom or common sense.


Akio, you have nice turns of phrase, but your points aren't clear and you have no textual support. I can't give this a passing grade.
~ Professor Arisa Konno, Eng 1001 (Freshman Literature and Composition)

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#33 | Back to Top11-25-2006 12:07:03 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Ohtori Academy, the Untold Story

What's this common sense thing that people keep mentioning?

And wisdom's more often than not age-related. Naturally it depends, but overall...


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#34 | Back to Top11-25-2006 04:30:58 PM

Calliston
High Tripper
Registered: 10-30-2006
Posts: 242

Re: Ohtori Academy, the Untold Story

IQ = Intelligence Quotient, non? It's calculated oh your score on the test as compared to the average score of everyone else that's your age. It's not really a "How smart are you?" kinda thing, but more of a "How smart are you compared to other people and how are you doing in these areas?" sort of test. Of course, getting the real, standardized test costs the average person hundreds of dollars (no joke!) so I think it's an invalid way of measuring intelligence since it seems that hardly anyone takes a real IQ test.

When I read some of these posts, I feel like my skull is starting to cleave. Y'all are too much for me. etc-love

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#35 | Back to Top11-25-2006 06:08:16 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
Website

Re: Ohtori Academy, the Untold Story

Archambeau wrote:

To return back to the 100 Duellists and Nemuro, I've personally never believed them to be an early attempt, in Ohtori, of obtaining the Prince's sword and the revolutionary power it contains.  Rather, I connect the hundred and the student council into one timeline, one machination.

That does explain why Nemuro Memorial Hall is still a burnt out husk at the end of the series.

On the other hand it raises the question of who was involved in the creation of the other failures that Akio mentions. And whether Ohtori had anything to do with those events. And lots of other stuff we can never know...

( Not that I mean to go off topic! emot-wink )


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#36 | Back to Top11-25-2006 06:27:25 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: Ohtori Academy, the Untold Story

Giovanna wrote:

For one thing, they vary so much based on the age of the person taking it that timed properly, you'll score higher or lower than you should. Second they test stupid things, ultimately proving you have certain talents, sure, but they neglect a whole gigantic range of potential arenas in which a person can be intelligent. I'll put more faith in standardized tests of intelligence when they can account for wisdom or common sense.

They have actual proper wisdom and common sense tests?
(I don't mean like the ones you find in fashion magazines, they are little more than a joke most of the time)

Last edited by Tamago (11-25-2006 08:17:35 PM)

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#37 | Back to Top11-28-2006 01:22:04 AM

Suyo
Tenjou Tilter
From: Washington
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 82

Re: Ohtori Academy, the Untold Story

I don't think that having a super goody two-shoes character like Dios around serves the story, in any way. He's at his best, when reduced to a memory. Things in Revolutionary Girl Utena deliberately refuse to fit in the classical roles of a fairy tale.

I've always thought of Dios as more or less a symbol for Innocence. More so while riding on the merry-go-round in the final episode.


I've always juggled a couple different interpretations of that moment. Originally I thought he caught her simply because catching her would get her away from the gate, which would have been more comfortable for him. I still think there was a bit of that there, but also, there must be some of that prince instinct left in him, enough that he'd do the princely thing when it suited him, and it would suit him just then. Aside from that, letting her fall breaks a decorum Akio keeps up on principle for his own ends. He's a dick, but letting Utena fall when he's perfectly able to catch her would be completely classless. I'm sure he was quite indifferent to her suffering and couldn't care less if she dropped dead, but while he is a gigantic bastard, he's not rude. Rudeness would be unbecoming, a force such as himself doesn't need to be reduced to such things.

Grr... So basically Akio is a hypocrite to...himself? I'm not sure how to put this into words...
He's good but he's bad. He's bad but he's good.... He's not exactly -both- but he's not...neither
I think I'm confusing myself.. I'll just stop here...




Some of you have questioned time lines about before the series begins?
In the manga, I believe Utena has been at Ohtori for about a month...

And about Anthy/Dios when they were 100% existing. This is a time when Princes and Princesses exist. So perhaps it's somewhere in the dark ages?


May those who accept their fate be granted happiness. May those who defy it be granted Glory.

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#38 | Back to Top11-28-2006 02:49:14 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Ohtori Academy, the Untold Story

Technically princes and princesses still exist, though not in the fairytale sense. I do think that Dios and Anthy were real once, in a way, but their existence was more of a metaphor for the childhood of humanity. By taking Dios away, Anthy forced people to grow up and that's why they hate her so much.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#39 | Back to Top11-12-2008 04:02:39 PM

Riri-kins
World's End
From: Cloud Nine
Registered: 09-22-2008
Posts: 2354

Re: Ohtori Academy, the Untold Story

Lightice wrote:

I can't seem to think of the projector as Nemuro's creation - it's too close to Akio's own being. And if that were the case, Nemuro should have been aware, at least to some extent, that he can be manipulated with the device. I'm not sure what was Nemuro's function in the game, though - perhaps he was there to upgrade the event, somehow. The difference between one hundred duellists in the past and seven in the present implies that the game evolved somehow. It's just as unclear why the hundred duellists had to die. Nemuro seems to believe that it was a neccecary action in grasping eternity, but it's never explained, just how. It's possible that the whole event was orchestrated by Akio just to bind Nemuro permanently in his power.

Dani wrote:

Paying more careful attention to the conversation Mikage has with one of the students working on the project, I'm convinced they are working on the duelling arena, the pathway and the circular stairway. There is even the briefest of still shots of the students planting trees for the duelling forest. So you are probably right that he doesn't know about the projector. I've always kinda gone with the fairy tale magic aspect that the 100 duellists died as a sacrifice for the power necessary for all the magic that happens at Ohtori (maybe that came from Mikage's comment about the animals that died for the fuel we use). At the very least, their deaths covered up the knowledge of the origin of the arena. It can seem more magical if the duellist is not aware of its scientific beginnings.

I agree with Dani because I think that Akio seduced Tokiko to drive Nemuro to burn down the hall and sacrifice a hundred human souls. But there's more to it than that. Here's my theory: Tokiko was Akio's creation.

Think about it. Nemuro was the only person brilliant enough to build a pathway to the dueling arena, but he had no motive before she came along. I think Akio forced Anthy to either assume her identity or create the living doll that was Tokiko.  What else was he going to offer him? The quest for ultimate knowledge? No! Nemuro was satisfied with his previous work. Remember that he was extremely unemotional before he fell in love, so he was probably the only person that came closest to escaping his tempatation. It was the only way to get the genius's cooperation.


Proud Saionji and Mikage fangirl
My Utena fanfiction: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2000115/Riri-kins

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#40 | Back to Top11-12-2008 04:40:26 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Ohtori Academy, the Untold Story

Riri-kins wrote:

Think about it. Nemuro was the only person brilliant enough to build a pathway to the dueling arena, but he had no motive before she came along. I think Akio forced Anthy to either assume her identity or create the living doll that was Tokiko.  What else was he going to offer him? The quest for ultimate knowledge? No! Nemuro was satisfied with his previous work. Remember that he was extremely unemotional before he fell in love, so he was probably the only person that came closest to escaping his tempatation. It was the only way to get the genius's cooperation.

But there's a problem here: Akio doesn't create anything except illusions and fakes. Tokiko is pretty much unquestionably a real human with a real life, as her brother, and her later visit to the Academy certify. There is no need for Akio to create something out of nothing, when he can simply manipulate and seduce a person that already exists for the job.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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