Maarika wrote:

There's nothing about Anthy that gives any hints that she's being raped. On the contrary, her expression is calm, which could never be the case for someone who's being raped. This is because Anthy thinks she needs Akio after all and wants to keep him.

Actually, someone might look calm during rape because they're basically trying to black it out, to leave their body. Not all rape victims scream and cry. After all, in the movie, Touga looks pretty calm during his rape scene.

Aww, Yasha, will you cut that out? It's just no fun when you keep owning all discussion threads with your brilliant posts. But I'll reply anyway.

Yasha wrote:

-stuff about orgasm-

Good catch. I didn't even consider it, most likely because orgasms in anime tend to look like this:

Second, that he used physical force with her is not necessarily indicative of unwillingness on her part. I think one of the things that's being overlooked here is that Anthy has the capacity to be quite sadistic, and would be quite willing to anger Akio enough that he was driven to establish dominance over her to remind her of how dirty and stained she really is.

Doesn't that make her a masochist, though? Anyway, why does she need another reminder to how "horrible" she is? Aren't the million sword of hatred that bore into her flesh every second enough? Instead of wanting more torture, Anthy seems to prefer inflicting pain on others. Unless what you mean is that by dominating Akio into dominating her and thinking she is submissive she is paining him even more because at some point he must realize that she was actually the dominant one and that he was just playing along without even realizing and oh God this sentence makes my head explode. Next!

So basically, I give Anthy far too much credit to believe she's a rape victim.

While I do recognize Anthy as the all-powerful puppet mistress in the series, that does not mean Akio cannot entirely act on his own against her. I do think it's possible she wasn't willing to have sex with him, but it's different to every other rape case in history because she doesn't care. I mean, after getting stabbed with a million swords but never truly dying and existing as a soulless doll for the sole purpose of serving others until the revolution comes and then you'll have to get stabbed AGAIN, what's getting raped once by your brother, whom you've been having sex with on a weekly basis for God-knows-how-long anyway?

Last edited by Hina the Prince (03-09-2007 12:54:17 PM)

Now that's an awesome point, Brian [even though it doesn't seem much like Dios with that face structure, now I'm just nitpicking]. The fact that Akio's form is filled with the night sky makes me think of the planetarium, and goes quite well with the Anthy/Akio/Dios relationship, too, if you put Anthy in Akio's place - Anthy longs for the real sky [Dios], but she can't have it even though it's right outside the room [could also refer to Utena] - instead she'll have to do with the fake stars [Akio], which might create the illusion of a real sky but once you really look at them it's clear they're not even close. But aren't they much more convenient?

Last edited by Hina the Prince (03-09-2007 01:20:59 PM)

We're coming at it from two completely different points of view on the character. From my point of view, Anthy enjoyed her relationship with Akio before Utena came along, and from yours, she does not enjoy it any longer and may never have enjoyed it. That affects the whole basis of interpretation here, as in my case I'm assuming that there are several things present there that you would naturally assume not to be there. For one, I'm assuming she does desire him, or has desired him in the past. That's speculation, of course, but no more so than the speculation that she's been taken against her will all along. Both are equally possible, although the reason I think she enjoyed their sexual acts is that she made an effort to hide them from Utena in the earlier part of the series, and never does show Utena quite how much time she spends with him. We tend to hide our dirty little habits, after all, and Akio fits quite well in the role of a dirty little habit, especially for Mrs. Ohtori. It's not out of line to assume that Anthy would treat him the same way when faced with the scrutiny of anyone else, especially Utena.

Another assumption I'm making is that Anthy actually is a masochist in a very specific emotional sense. It's a well known axiom of child-rearing that if you tell a child he's bad often enough, he'll grow up to be bad. The same holds true for people of any age, and Anthy has been told for what could be thousands of years that she's the worst person in the world, and that she deserves to suffer for the crime of stealing away Dios. And she did commit that crime; in her own head, she cannot deny that she is guilty. She has been made to suffer disproportionately because of it, but people tend to accept the punishments they are given because they can do nothing else. The hardest part of this logical chain to understand-- and to be honest, I don't understand it fully myself, I only know it happens because I've seen it and done it-- is that at some point, the punishment is accepted as necessary. After all, if Anthy hadn't sealed away Dios, she would not be suffering the swords, so the swords must be a necessary effect of sealing away Dios. This logic is flawed, as the swords are not necessary at all, but because it has happened and she is suffering for her act, to hope that one day the world will let out a giant cosmological 'Oops, sorry 'bout that' is absolutely ridiculous. It's a notion worthy of only spite and malice-- a cruel joke, to think that anyone could ever heal her or negate her suffering.

What follows from this is a need for self-punishment. If her suffering lifts for a moment, she's only going to go back to suffering again. She was happy and maybe almost forgot she was in pain, then those swords slammed back into her feeling twice as cold and twice as sharp as they ever were, specifically because of the contrast. So why allow herself to be happy at all? Happiness only makes it hurt worse. Why not revel in being a witch? Cold, callous, spiteful and malicious... it's not happy, but at least it's satisfying to give back a little of the pain the world has given to her. And sex with her brother doesn't make her happy the way loving Dios did, but it satisfies the need to be touched (a well-documented necessity for mental stability) and it shows her that at least someone cares, even if he's only pretending. At least someone cares enough to pretend. Why should anyone else care anyway? They don't even notice how much pain she's in.

This ties in directly with Anthy's suicide attempt and the things she said to Utena afterward. Taken from that perspective, Anthy is finally reaching out and trying to protect the person that made her pain go away for a while. It also ties in with the way she betrayed Utena. Who could possibly believe, after all that suffering, that there was a way out? And the way out is frightening, because it might not be the real thing-- she might just get shoved back onto those swords the moment she thought she was free. In this case it is ultimately the smarter, more self-protective choice for Anthy, who does not believe Utena to truly be her Prince, to stab Utena in the stomach instead of embrace her with open arms.

All of this reasoning contributes directly to my ideas of a power play between Anthy and Akio, and why I do not believe that she was raped. I realize I'm analysing her as if she's a real person, but I can't do it any other way. The beauty of this is that if I was a different person, one who hadn't seen this sort of thing happen first hand, and if I hadn't experienced a drastically smaller version of it myself, I would likely not see it this way either.

That's the case with so many things in this show. At times I find it hard to separate fact from opinion, which was why I went with the strict personal rule that everything shown on the screen is fact and everything else is interpretation.

Edit: I don't mean to own discussion at all, only to explain why I have reasoned things out the way I have. If anything, I hope it will push people to reason out their own ideas thoroughly and post them. The show is meant for things like this, I think, and it'd be a shame to have everyone agree.

Last edited by Yasha (03-09-2007 02:30:38 PM)

dollface wrote:

I am, perhaps, the only person who believes that Akio and Anthy really do love each other.

The general consensus, AFAIK, is that they do love each other sort of, but it is very twisted.

dollface wrote:

her face drops into pure malice.

Malice? It looks a lot like hopelessness and more misery to me. She seems to be very discouraged as well as resentful.

These postings are very insightful and I mostly agree with the psychological insights. The term rape is problematic but accurate enough. It seems just common-sense that she would rather be with Utena than Akio. Akio is the first to discern that a triangle is forming and he spends a lot of time trying to disrupt it. He is a composite of the character flaws of all the duellists, and here we see him acting like Saionji. "Treat 'em rough and make 'em like it," and also showing Saoinji's insecurity.

BTW the rape scene in the movie is also problematic, but even there I doubt that Anthy actually wanted things to be like that.

Moved from the derailed thread to this more appropriate one...

Hina the Prince wrote:

Frosty wrote:

I know it seems very prevalent in all fanfiction today, that Akio is still up to his old tricks, and that kinda renders Utena's "revolution" pointless

Why? The point of Utena's revolution was setting Anthy free, and it worked. Akio could keep going with his evil schemes [the revolution had nothing to do with him, after all], but that doesn't mean they'll work, because Anthy is no longer bound to him. He's lost his power.

Frosty wrote:

Scenes come to mind near the end, when Utena/Anthy/Akio are all living together in his tower, you see Anthy show some passive-aggressiveness...and it isn't always clear that it's because she's trying to "keep Utena away from Akio" but sometimes, that she actually WANTS Akio to herself.

Would you mind refreshing my memory about those scenes? I think I have a selective memory.

Ok, this is going to tie in with the warped Anthy/Akio relationship. Remember in one scene, Anthy disrupts Akio, when he is putting his arm on Utena, by using some ChuChu comment...so that Anthy can step between them. In this case, because she cut Akio off, I'd say in this case she was pushing Akio off of Utena.

However, a few scenes later, after Utena catches Anthy sleeping with Akio, proceeding to ask him out on a date. Anthy cuts of Utena, while Utena is talking, with a comment to ChuChu about the toast. "Oh, I'm sorry ChuChu, that was yours and not mine?" Because here, she is interrupting Utena, it said to me that here Anthy was saying Akio is MINE.

Why did she want to say that to Utena? Well, as a UxA fan, I am gonna Anthy was SHOCKED and STARTLED by Utena's reaction to the sex...maybe even MAD at her, for not realizing immediately what was going on and taking action. If she were being raped, and here her friend actually came in and WITNESSED the abuse...then just pretended like it didn't happen. Well, Anthy should have been feeling a bit crushed by then. I know I sure was! Instead of being enraged, or acting weirded out (as someone pointed out Nanami showed a much more realistic reaction) Utena is all like, "Hay, wanna go on a date with me? Teehee!" WTF!?

Since we're relating this to real life experiences, ok, imagine walking in on a child molester, actually SEEING the fondling or whatever (like in the movie Devil's Advocate - the creepy pervs hands moving under the desk), you make full-out eye contact with the child in question - then the next day, YOU, who are in a position of authority over that person (Utena was the engaged who Anthy had to obey, even if she rejected it) totally ignore this scene! Act like it didn't happen! And, the final crushing blow, even suggest taking the molester out on a date, where they might have another little "treat" in store! Much like, I've heard, some mom's in real life, can sense child abuse is going on, but they don't want to believe it...so they might try extra hard to please their husbands in bed, without actually confronting them about what they are doing to the child - in the hopes of avoiding and full-blown confrontation and destroying the family unit. My mom was molested and she told me that everyone knew, but no one wanted to say anything because except for that tiny detail - they had the perfect family life. ALSO, my mom was the oldest of seven younger brothers and sisters. She (mom) would play this game, with her own molester, literally tempting him away from the younger children in an effort to protect them from his evilness. When the story finally did reach it's peak, my mother's mom - rather than leave the husband - attempted therapy! The stupid therapist that they went to actually tried to say that it was my mother's fault, being that a teenage girl should not walk around in a towel in front of a middle-aged man. Riiight.

I say that people with do anything to protect the family unit - no matter how fucked up it is. You all remember when Anthy smiled and said "I hope things never change between us three." (I could be projecting my own feelings here, because like Yasha pointed out, it's terribly hard - the line blurs between the Truth of the Screen, and what YOU feel those images mean to you, according to your own life experiences.) But I definitely think that Anthy was being abused the entire time...

Yeah, she took off her glasses, yeah, she called him "dear brother", so they had a little ritual established, but that doesn’t say to me that she was enjoying or wanting, just accepting her fate. (and remember, we have at least ONE instance when she does NOT “accept” her fate - the ‘resisting Akio with frown’ scene) When I saw the screencap of Anthy's face, while she was laying out during her Akio visit, she just looked lifeless and dead. Back on alt.fan.utena, someone brought up the unpopular theory (that I don't think ever took off much) that she was drugged. Ha! No, I don't believe that - but her eyes do look lifeless, and her body seems sedated. She's not wriggling around, or moaning, or showing any signs of pleasure... And even if she were experiencing orgasm - well, as sick as it is to think about, I'm sure some child molesters actually get the kids off. Which is why it's probably so traumatic, b/c not only is something evil happening, but you have the pleasure sensation mingled with it, how mind-bending is that to deal with?

Again, even if it is true that Anthy were experiencing orgasm, hence the contorted facial expression, that doesn't necessarily mean she was mentally enjoying herself, it could just be a natural physiological reaction. As an example, I like feeling breath on my neck. I love it! Makes shivers down my spine, and I tingle all over! It's possibly one of the world's best sensations, IMHO... that's when, I mean, you are curled up in bed sleeping with someone and they are breathing on you. HOWEVER, I also love, love, love going to "Haunted Hotels" and scary monster houses during Halloween. All alone in the dark, sometimes the monsters pop out in front of you, but sometimes you get the sneaky ones that walk ever so quietly behind you, until you feel a heavy breath on your neck! AHHH! I still have the same physical sensation in my body, tingling chills, but I am NOT happy, I'm scared to death in that instant!

Anyway, yeah, I am in the camp that thinks Akio was abusing Anthy. I do, as I mentioned earlier, see some scenes in a light that shows Anthy's willingness to protect her relationship with Akio, but again, I say that it would be for the higher motive of thereby saving Utena from his filthy grasp. Remember, she was the girl who sacrificed herself for Dios. Again, by taking Akio's abuse, I see it as another sacrifice for Utena (near the end of the show). In the beginning, why Anthy first started sleeping with him, how did it occur, we will never know. But by the time we do see the sex scenes, to me, she simply looks defeated & hopeless.

I'm sorry when my ideas are incoherent and jumbled together, but when we speak of Anthy (my favorite) my brains snaps and fires around all different points, sorry! Oooh, but I'm with you, Maarika, I love reading everyone's ideas! This is so thrilling, I love listening to the different ways we all view the same show. It's so much fun! I love this forum!

Just adding a few replies to more Anthy/Akio intrigue, which I forgot to include in my previous post…

Hina the Prince wrote:

While I do recognize Anthy as the all-powerful puppet mistress in the series…

Hina the Prince wrote:

I think Anthy haven't had interest in Akio for a long time. She clang onto him because he was all she had, and he was the Dios she loved, once, a long time ago. Now that he is no longer a prince, he can finally be hers. I don't think it took her very long to realize it's not the person she loved - but he was close enough, and he loved her, and she had nowhere else to go, no one waiting for her, and not to mention - she's a heartless doll. No one would want her.

And then came Utena and proved her that everything she believed was wrong.

Yes!!!

This view of Anthy as “the all-powerful puppet mistress” is my take exactly. And like Yasha said, “I give Anthy too much credit to simply be a rape victim”. I agree, I think she COULD have stopped her suffering (rape) at any time, but chose not to. And some would say that is the highest degree of love, power, compassion, whatever… when you have the power to remove yourself from an uncomfortable situation, but choose not to because of whatever.

Much like (forgive the religious allusion) Jesus Christ, himself! Were we to believe the story: The 40 days, I believe, He was in the desert, nearing the end, Satan came to tempt him with “ways to get out of His suffering”. One, magically make yourself some food, Jesus! No, “man shall not live by bread alone, but by every living word of God” Two, If you’re the Christ, you can end your suffering, just toss yourself off the top of this cliff and angels will rush to your aid and lift you! “No, you shall not tempt the Lord your God.” Three, come on, I’ll give you all of these kingdoms if you bow down and worship me! “Get behind me Satan, you shall worship the Lord thy God, him only shall you serve.” Finally the beating leading up to the horrible crucifixion, where when taken to Golgotha to be hung on the cross, at any moment, he could have willed himself away from the torture - but chose not to end His suffering for the greater good.

And this is exactly how I see Anthy Himemiya, as a powerful goddess who could have stopped the abuse at any moment, but made the decision not to. In the beginning, maybe it was because she felt like the Dios who she loved, transforming into horrible Akio, was her fault, and she deserved to be punished. I think Anthy was acting out of sheer force of will, accepting something that she hated, continuing the perverse sexual ritual that had been established - because she felt like she maybe “killed” the only person she had ever loved…changing them into a monster, but she owed the memory of the one she loved. Out of respect for Dios, and in regret for her sin of wiping him away - she allowed things to continue. But I don’t think she liked it. I don’t think she asked for it. And certainly when Utena enters the picture, I think she actively (at least once we see) tries to signal to Akio, that she would rather stop it. But since he wants to continue, she does…

Which is not to say that I think Anthy is totally innocent and pure, I mean, she may well (as Maarika pointed out) have had jealousy motivating her initial sacrifice to save Dios...I think it was love, though. She didn't want those people taking advantage of him. Using his goodness any longer for their own selfish needs. So she stepped in to resolve the issue, by placing herself between his sickly form, and the pulsing mob. And I agree, Anthy may not have known that she would be stabbed forever in a pile of swords, in fact, I doubt she did so. But once she awakened to the realization that A: She was in eternal torment, and B: Her "beloved brother" had transformed into a monster - what did she do? She apparently just accepted her fate. The equivalent to (and maybe literally) "bending over and taking it in the rear"!

Then comes Utena, the catalyst, which eventually makes this charade stop. Three cheers for the revolution!

SleepDebtFairy wrote:

I'm kind of in the middle on whether Anthy actually loves Akio or if she's just sick of him. I think she does love Akio, in a way, but it's a very twisted kind of love, of course. She clings to him because, to her, it is his fault that he is the way he is, and he is all she has left. And she fought so hard to save him, Dios. She sacrificed herself from him.

Yes, I too think what Anthy loves is the memory of Dios. Because of that memory, she will put up with anything from Akio, because he represents her link with Dios. Happily enough, IMO, Utena comes into the picture as a healthy representation of the real Dios, and eventually transcends even that “image“ to become something greater…which is to say, something real. With Akio, she had “the devil transforming himself into an angel of light”. But with Utena, we actually have, a real (albeit slightly dopey) angel of light!

Frosty wrote:

However, a few scenes later, after Utena catches Anthy sleeping with Akio, proceeding to ask him out on a date. Anthy cuts of Utena, while Utena is talking, with a comment to ChuChu about the toast. "Oh, I'm sorry ChuChu, that was yours and not mine?" Because here, she is interrupting Utena, it said to me that here Anthy was saying Akio is MINE.

In English she says "forgive me!" I always assumed she was talking to Utena. Who else would she say it to? She had just spent the night obeying Akio's will, there was no need to apologize to him. She cannot explain things to Utena, she knows Utena is mad at her, she is trying to keep things as they have been, so apologizing is the best she can do.

A whole bunch of people wrote:

Anthy is ultimately in charge

We get so fixated on Anthy as a Goddess or Witch that we forgt the aspect that is only 14 years old, and the real Anthy may be much younger than that. Since someone brought up child molestation, remember that it can last for years. Doesn't the victim have the power to have their tormenter clapped right into jail at any time? How come they don't do it then? Anthy's theoretical power to stop things is not at all the same thing as freedom although perhaps an Exitentialist might disagree. It's not just children either, plenty of grown-ups let themselves get abused in a hundred different ways.

Well, I gave it some thought but I simply cannot see Anthy as having been raped. Now, I claim no superior in the area of body language, but let's look at this shot:


Ok, if you were being raped would you be clinging on to the guy? Look at her...her face is buried in his chest and she's grabbing onto his shoulder. She's isn't staring at the ceiling wishing for it to be over, she isn't struggling, she isn't looking in the other direction, she isn't looking repulsed and/or trying not to touch him. Her hands aren't tightly clutching him. She looks sad but the way she's holding him seems almost gentle. She looks almost like someone crying onto a friend or lover's shoulder. Show the pic to a random person; I doubt they'll say "OMG rape". I agree with the theory that she's thinking of Dios and wishing Akio were him, or that she's blaming herself for turning Akio into what he is now.

I mean, she goes like clockwork to Akio every week. She doesn't have to. She could wiggle her way out of it if she tried. Even if she 'doesn't feel like it', she lets him, whatever her personal feelings are. And, I'm going on gut feeling more than anything else, but everything tells me that she was jealous of Akio, not Utena when she sees them together with that creepy look of hers. I got the distinct feeling she was mad at Utena. Again, gut feeling.



Or maybe she was just trying to push Akio over the edge (of the window! XD).

Lightice wrote:

"It was as though she didn't want it and she could have stopped him at any time, because she was the one who had all the power, but she was going to let him do it to her anyway, as though to prove some kind of point; and he didn't want to do it to her and could have stopped himself, but he was going to do it to her because she was going to let him"

I LOVE that.

Last edited by YamPuff (03-11-2007 10:26:21 AM)

Yes, I am aware the relationship is twisted. But many, many people believe it is hate/hate, not love/hate. I'm just pointing out that I think Anthy loved Dios, and has never been able to stop loving Akio. Because of the selfless sacrifice she made, Akio loves Anthy, but knows that her soul is all but gone, and she can never truly love him again.

dollface wrote:

Yes, I am aware the relationship is twisted. But many, many people believe it is hate/hate, not love/hate. I'm just pointing out that I think Anthy loved Dios, and has never been able to stop loving Akio. Because of the selfless sacrifice she made, Akio loves Anthy, but knows that her soul is all but gone, and she can never truly love him again.

I agree with all of that, except the last part confuses me. I do think Akio and Anthy's relationship is definitely love/hate, and that Anthy clings to the image of her former Dios. But I don't think Anthy lacks a soul. I think her true essense, "the power of Dios" was just locked away in that coffin by herself. She did want to try and be a heartless doll, after all, but seeing as how she confessed that to Utena and obviously seemed to be showing guilt and other emotions, I don't think she fully succeeded in that.

Ahh, the clarification makes much more sense. Thank you.

I have to wonder, if the sword of Dios acts as Anthy's soul.. where did her own sword go? Hmm.

But, yes, the sword of Dios reacts directly to Anthy's will in the duels. She doesn't want Saionji to be her master, she wants Utena. Even though she didn't know Utena in the beginning, she at least knew that she would prefer her as a master over Saionji, who was abusive to her, while Utena showed annoyance over the owning the rose bride thing. It seems like in all of the duels, Anthy/Dios sets it up for Utena to win.

And, yes, after being stabbed by the swords of humanity's hatred, you're bound to be a little cynical.