This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#51 | Back to Top11-21-2009 05:04:59 PM

Tatty
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 11-08-2009
Posts: 20

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

Ikuhara Kunihiko himself

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#52 | Back to Top11-22-2009 07:58:08 AM

Frau Eva
Voodoo Queen
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 803

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

I do have to say, I don't really feel annoyed with Saionji, and for the same reasons you mentioned. One, the series doesn't shove his OMG PAIN down our throats to begin with, if anything makes him unsympathetic. We don't even know the extent to which its all about Touga until a bit later; at first it's just OMG ANTHY U HOR. That, and I have a personal theory that the series was hinting at Saionji just not growing up well at all, and having the one friend who doesn't treat you like crap for being poor, etc. reveal himself to think that he's better than everyone...that'll stick with you more, especially if you have to stay around him and thus the reminders are daily.

I have to agree, I really don't miss the kiss perse, and think the series is better off without it. I can interpret their relationship as either the purest friendship ever or a romantic relationship either way depending on what fic I'm writing, or not even address it if I'm writing gen. It was nice when writing The Cycle to focus on just what was happening and not have to feel like I needed to throw in something like OKAY BTW THEYRE TOTALLY BANGING THROUGH THIS K?!?!?! Utena and Anthy can just...be. Kind of reminds me of my sister and her *cough* "friend." Sure, it's there, but it doesn't have to be said right now. I think that's what I like the most about it; there's room to explore, tension, and mystery. Fics where Anthy and Utena have big mushy post-Ohtori relationship to me are usually absolutely boring because it's all out in the open and with none of the issues(which should not be true).
Agreed, I think Saito did issue her ultimatum more on "Homos are icky and that's not how real shoujo goes" than anything actually insightful about storytelling. And it just aggravates me in general that someone who's so BAD at it dictated anything to Ikuhara. Fine, leave. He'll find another generic shoujo mangaka. emot-rolleyes

Edited for Grammar Fail.

Last edited by Frau Eva (11-22-2009 07:59:38 AM)


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#53 | Back to Top11-22-2009 12:33:40 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4412

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

Tatty wrote:

Ikuhara Kunihiko himself

This explained must be?  I assume it's because of his....taciturn... behavior regarding questioning.

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#54 | Back to Top11-22-2009 01:57:00 PM

Tatty
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 11-08-2009
Posts: 20

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

This explained must be?  I assume it's because of his....taciturn... behavior regarding questioning.

Well, I like how he wasn't afraid of doing something new, breaking the stereotypes and stuff.

But this guy is the biggest troll ever! He admited it himself emot-rolleyes

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#55 | Back to Top11-22-2009 02:43:45 PM

alexielnet
Unfulfilled Juror
From: Arizona
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 236
Website

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

I think one of the things that pisses me off most in both the anime and the manga are the scenes in which Nanami and Juri (respectively) blame Utena for Touga getting hurt by Saionji. Never mind that it was Saionji who cut him or that Utena did not ask for help. It's so irrational and misogynistic. Saiomji can't be blamed because he has man-urges that can't be helped but Utena should have been able to... what, protect herself from a surprise attack? It is pure victim-blaming and that really sucks. emot-mad

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#56 | Back to Top11-22-2009 03:23:19 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4412

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

alexielnet wrote:

I think one of the things that pisses me off most in both the anime and the manga are the scenes in which Nanami and Juri (respectively) blame Utena for Touga getting hurt by Saionji. Never mind that it was Saionji who cut him or that Utena did not ask for help. It's so irrational and misogynistic. Saiomji can't be blamed because he has man-urges that can't be helped but Utena should have been able to... what, protect herself from a surprise attack? It is pure victim-blaming and that really sucks. emot-mad

Oh yeah, I mean, for Nanami it was more about her own fucked up relationship with her brother as to why she wanted to blame Utena -something Touga uses to his advantage- then any overt sexism on her part (She needs a reason to be angry with Utena and bring her down, because she doesn't want to believe that Touga protected her because he cares about her, so she tries to frame the situation to make Utena appear to be a heartless, manipulative temptress.  Yeah okay still sexist, but at least the series doesn't support this reasoning.  And another part of me wonders if she is unaware of the tension between Touga and Saionji.  I think she may still believe they are friends in order to better suit her brother's benevolent image, and could have also been trying to protect Saionji's image to the school and to herself by placing the blame on Utena.), but Juri?  Oh wait, MANGA Juri. 

Sexism in the manga?  Surprise.


emot-rolleyes


And Tatty, I still don't get what you mean.  I'm not super-familiar with trolls, but aren't they just an internet nuisance?

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (11-22-2009 05:24:02 PM)

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#57 | Back to Top11-22-2009 04:01:08 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

And Tatty, I still don't get what you mean.  I'm not super-familiar with trolls, but aren't they just an internet nuisance?

Well, the concept of a troll can be extended outside Internet setting - basically a troll is a person who seeks to cause arguments and flaming for its own sake, not because he cares about the subject. Sometimes though a troll has a bit more positive meaning, a sort of Socratic individual who drives people nuts with his questions and behaviour, but also forces them to think about what it is that makes them so annoying. You just never know if they're enlightening by purpose or chance.
I suppose that Tatty is indicating that Ikuhara is deliberately annoying in order to make people make up their own minds about his work. That's my interpretation, anyway.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#58 | Back to Top11-23-2009 01:59:47 PM

Like_Autumn
Network Ninja
Registered: 07-18-2007
Posts: 639
Website

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

Yeah, putting some of the cast in middle school was the dumbest thing ever. The problems they go through seem way too mature for kids of that age.

Though to be honest, I was an early bloomer and fairly developed by 13, so it's not completely unusual about their figures. Still, it's not like that's the norm for most girls.


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#59 | Back to Top11-23-2009 03:49:45 PM

Setsuna
Tragedian
Registered: 02-25-2009
Posts: 1370

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

I'm just going to join in the on Chiho.

For one, I was introduced to SKU by a book on anime and I was intrigued. Before looking up the DVD's I thought I'd just read the manga and I was kind of disappointed. Thank God I actually looked further and watched the series on Youtube and rented the movie, because just going off the first novel of the manga I would have completely left the series. I saw it's potential, but the art wasn't good (and at it's best it was just like "Ooh, that's pretty") and the characters were kind of annoying. and like Only said, the story telling was just done pretty poorly.

And we still get our kiss in the movie, which is Ikuhara both having fun and FU'ing Chiho.  Also, possibly my favorite thing about it is that it's drawn so that their faces are level with each other.  No one kissing down and one kissing up. And their faces don't look slightly pained with desire or conflict or blushing and overly cute.  They both look so infinitely happy and without pretense. Fucking amazing.

I agree, that's probably why I really love the movie. And the anime face lift with the artwork.

But one thing that always got on my nerves is really small. It's those poofy sleeves and the school uniforms in general. Those...sleeves. How did they get that poofy, and what's the point of having them the size of your head? Who did the colors by the way? Because mint green was a little ugly in my opinion. Especially mixed with yellow and red? WTF? (it also makes cosplaying weird..)
Or to be honest, those two pieces of hair on Keiko's forehead and the fact that her pigtails stick out so far.

One thing that didn't really piss me off, but more amuse me was how exaggerated and unrealistic the school setting was.(they almost NEVER actually had class or homework) It was done for a purpose, but like I said, it ended up making me laugh more then take it seriously, unfortunately.

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#60 | Back to Top11-23-2009 03:58:41 PM

Bluesky
Chpn Dlst
From: Your window
Registered: 10-25-2008
Posts: 1939
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Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

The fact that I just don't like the majority of the characters. As much as I love the actual anime, it does make it hard viewing at times. emot-frown
Hence why I will never be a fan of SaionGa yaoi, sad to say. Amongst other things.


/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\

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#61 | Back to Top11-23-2009 06:14:08 PM

Like_Autumn
Network Ninja
Registered: 07-18-2007
Posts: 639
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Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

I know what you mean, Miss Bluesky. I don't like most of them either. They're <i>interesting</i>, but for me to really be drawn to characters, I have to like them. I've read good SKU fanfic and I love the beautiful fanart that's out there, but this forum is really one of the few things keeping me involved in the series. I started to gain interest in Utena back when I first started to be interested in yuri, and I did think that some of Chiho Saito's artwork was beautiful. But some of the designs really are just silly. I do enjoy the anime series, but sometimes it becomes a bit too heavy for me.

The best thing about the series is the Shadow Play Girls, in my opinion. emot-keke


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#62 | Back to Top11-23-2009 07:45:28 PM

Frau Eva
Voodoo Queen
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 803

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

Haha, how could I forget those uniforms? They're HIDEOUS. I think I glossed over it a bit because there's a lot of Catholic schools in my area, I went to one...and most of them are just ugly(navy and white houndstooth SHORTS were ours; I was the only girl to wear the long pants associated with the guys mainly because it was the only option that wasn't fugly). Although nothing tops Haruka and Michiru's school uniforms in Sailor Moon. I can't even say that it looks like a blind person made it; someone blind would at least get one thing to look good out of pure chance. Someone went out of their way to make them look as heinous as possible.

I think if I were to ask Ikuhara anything, it would be what the hell was up with the uniforms. Because anything of any depth he's just not going to answer, and I genuinely want to know what the heck happened. Because it's obvious that style went into the other uniforms and...

Wait...I just realized the the character designs were originally developed by Saito. I BLAME HER FOR EVERYTHING BAD EVER. emot-dance

The characters being unlikable as real people for some reason makes it better. They're like a screwed up psychological puzzle I can pick at. Hey, I don't have to date them, just write about them. emot-tongue


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#63 | Back to Top11-23-2009 10:37:46 PM

Setsuna
Tragedian
Registered: 02-25-2009
Posts: 1370

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

Frau Eva wrote:

Wait...I just realized the the character designs were originally developed by Saito. I BLAME HER FOR EVERYTHING BAD EVER. emot-dance

The characters being unlikable as real people for some reason makes it better. They're like a screwed up psychological puzzle I can pick at. Hey, I don't have to date them, just write about them. emot-tongue

emot-rofl I remember reading in the notes of the manga that Ikuhara changed the uniforms. I think specifically it was Anthy's rose bride dress from white to red and Utena's uniform from hot pink(*shudders* I GET THE COLOR COORDINATION AND MEANING> BUT NOT EVERYTHING HAS TO BE GODDAMN HOT PINK!) to bluish black. Making him later able to do Utena's rose bride gown to that pretty white and Anthy having a red symbolism with her dress. emot-smile (I still don't think forest green matched with it)

And, one reason I've never felt a real sexual attraction or relation to one character in particular is because how fucked up they are. I'm glad they did like they did. A cast where I wasn't really favoring any side made me entertained as hell. emot-keke

I do enjoy the anime series, but sometimes it becomes a bit too heavy for me.

Me too. I think of the anime as a delicious buttercream frosting cake. Overall it's beautiful, awesome, delicious and mind blowing, but if you eat too much you get sick and you're a little queasy. etc-love

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#64 | Back to Top11-24-2009 07:59:04 PM

kirika
New Student
From: Melbourne
Registered: 09-09-2009
Posts: 6

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

Tamago wrote:

We all know that for Touga and Akio, their favourite duelling weapon is the Pork Sword.

holy shit, that made me laugh!!

the thing that pissed me off so much was that anthy was a huge back-stabbing bitch.


Zettai! Unmei! Mokushiroku!

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#65 | Back to Top11-25-2009 12:28:42 PM

winksniper
Qualified Duellist
From: Under the Cherry Moon
Registered: 09-11-2009
Posts: 764

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

kirika wrote:

the thing that pissed me off so much was that anthy was a huge back-stabbing bitch.

Oh my God, I know.  Pretty much everything bad that happens is all her fault.  Not everything, but a lot of it.  Hell, she was the one that made Nanami officially turn into a cow with that damn red sweater.

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#66 | Back to Top11-25-2009 01:39:19 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4412

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

Haha, Anthy turning out to be not what she appears is the thing that made me love this show!  emot-tongue

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#67 | Back to Top11-25-2009 01:57:51 PM

spoon-san
Someday Shiner
Registered: 03-18-2009
Posts: 3423

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

The guys, aside from a few (Mitsuru, Miki, Mikage, if Mamiya counts), really piss me off.  However, I've learned to appreciate Saionji more and even Touga a little bit.  I'd like Rukia if he had more screen time.  The recycled animation also gets annoying but overall, I think what they did with it makes it good enough to keep it (like doing one thing a million times only to alter it in a way that makes you go holy tolido, like with the prince story after episode 34).

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#68 | Back to Top11-25-2009 03:03:41 PM

dollface
Postmistress Elf of Subtext
From: North Carolina
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 5086
Website

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Haha, Anthy turning out to be not what she appears is the thing that made me love this show!  emot-tongue

Seconded! In fact, I disliked Anthy before we found out how cruel she could really be. Life really shaped her into the way she is now, and if she had remained sweet and innocent and shy all though the series, I would have hated her for being such a boring character.


ah, man does not exist; ah, within the darkness; ah, the sound of the waves

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#69 | Back to Top11-25-2009 03:44:22 PM

minervana
High Tripper
Registered: 10-10-2009
Posts: 246

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

I get a bit exasperated with the recycled footage. I understand they were under severe budget constraints, so I'm not blaming them per se. That the creators were able to do so much with it speaks to their inventiveness. But I still sometimes wish that they could have found some money, some how.

I also dislike how short the episodes are. Again, they did an excellent job within the limitations provided. But I can't help wishing the episodes were 4, maybe 5 minutes longer. Probably the same amount of content would be covered per episode, but it could bring in more material. Like in the last episode; that brief montage of the student council members provides some resolution, but it might have been better with a smidgen more.

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#70 | Back to Top12-03-2009 10:50:39 PM

BioKraze
Faceless Master
From: Yuma, Arizona (USA)
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 8282

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

minervana wrote:

I get a bit exasperated with the recycled footage. I understand they were under severe budget constraints, so I'm not blaming them per se. That the creators were able to do so much with it speaks to their inventiveness. But I still sometimes wish that they could have found some money, some how.

Bake sale?

(I am honestly not mocking you, minervana! That was just the first idea that came to mind, I swear!)


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Razara's Postulate: For every lover of lesbians out there, there is an equal and opposite attraction to Dippin' Dots.

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#71 | Back to Top12-04-2009 12:11:52 AM

minervana
High Tripper
Registered: 10-10-2009
Posts: 246

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

BioKraze wrote:

minervana wrote:

I get a bit exasperated with the recycled footage. I understand they were under severe budget constraints, so I'm not blaming them per se. That the creators were able to do so much with it speaks to their inventiveness. But I still sometimes wish that they could have found some money, some how.

Bake sale?

(I am honestly not mocking you, minervana! That was just the first idea that came to mind, I swear!)

Bake sale might have worked. Or Ikuhara could have dressed up as Sailor Saturn and gone on "paid dates" with middle-aged businessmen...

Anything for art, right?

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#72 | Back to Top12-04-2009 02:20:19 PM

ArsenicForBreakfast
Pathtracer
From: The Destination of Your Fate
Registered: 10-14-2007
Posts: 340
Website

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

Frau Eva wrote:

Lastly, the more I watch the show, the more Juri and Shiori annoy the shit out of me. Juri, we've all been through it, but really, YEARS? You basically act like a frosty bitch all the time to everyone because a girl didn't like you in middle school. Get over it. Go listen to some My Chemical Romance, dear God. Shiori wasn't even at the same school for a couple of years, and you didn't change at all.  And it's not even like it's this is a one-in-a-lifetime girl you're missing out on. Hmm, a girl so crushingly insecure that she'll basically lie and cheat and do whatever she can just so someone with a penis will pay attention to her. That's a totally rare and valuable commodity there.

See, that's actually one of the things I really LIKED about the series.  Not just Juri/Shiori, but the fact that the problems the duelists (except maybe Touga) want to solve with the power of revolution are petty personal problems.  This rings true, I think, in the context of adolesence:  from the outside, or once the person experiencing it has grown up, they're small, insignificant problems.  But when you're a teenager and living through it?  It's world shattering.  Moreover, the duelists' inability to get over these problems is kind of the driving force behind most of the action in the series, so as annoying as it might be to see them tread over the same issue without making any progress, it is kind of necessary.

***

As far as my problems with the series go, I'll chime in with the annoyance about the animation and get that out of the way.  I watched a lot of 90's anime with crappy art, and Utena's not the worst out there; the inconsistency is what annoys me.  Sometimes the art is fucking gorgeous, and sometimes it's like the interns were drawing it while tripping on peyote.  I would have rather seen it be mediocre throughout, at least then I wouldn't have gotten my hopes up.  Other problems are more specific, such as:

-Touga's injury in episode 9.  This has always annoyed me.  For one, Touga doesn't bleed.  Well, that's par for the course in SKU, but there's not even any indication that the sword broke skin.  It just looks like Saionji sliced a hole in his shirt.  And how exactly did Touga's arm get injured?  The slice went right down the middle of his back, nowhere near his right arm.  And yet he comes out of the infirmary with it in a sling.  Huh?

-Anthy's hair.  Is it like Movie!Utena's hair, only growing long at important points in the plot?  Is it put up around her head like some weird neck-brace/bun?  Does she have a secret stash of purple hair extensions or something?

And then there's Chu-chu.  Just...chu-chu.  I always fast forward through all the scenes he's in.  At best he adds nothing to the scene, at worst he totally ruins the mood.  Screw cute mascots. emot-frown


I'm a fan of pessimism: if you maintain the lowest expectations possible, they'll always be met or exceeded.

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#73 | Back to Top12-04-2009 02:27:04 PM

winksniper
Qualified Duellist
From: Under the Cherry Moon
Registered: 09-11-2009
Posts: 764

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

And then there's Chu-chu.  Just...chu-chu.  I always fast forward through all the scenes he's in.  At best he adds nothing to the scene, at worst he totally ruins the mood.  Screw cute mascots.

Haha, I know what you mean.  I understand he's only there for comedic purposes, but it's nearly impossible to take it seriously when he's around, especially when the scene is meant to be taken seriously.  Thank God they left him out of the AnthyxAkio scenes.  That would have been awkward enough to make us think he was just hugging her really tight and it was hurting her arms, and that's why she had such a distraught expression on her face.  emot-rolleyes

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#74 | Back to Top12-04-2009 02:38:01 PM

Setsuna
Tragedian
Registered: 02-25-2009
Posts: 1370

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

Speaking of ruining the mood, to be honest how silly it got pissed me off because I've always tried to show it to someone, and NO ONE can take it seriously. Like with the movie, there's just parts that they didn't have to do. Like change the car to look very phallic, or when Makio jumps over the car, or the fact that the castle on big ass wheels or even small stuff like this.

I mean granted, it's exaggerated for a purpose, or it's comic relief, but it totally destroys the mood of seriousness. I remember a post somewhere about Tezuka even adding little things to be comedic in his manga(I think it was in the manga thread) and it screwing up the atmosphere, and I agree.(Like in Buddha, he just had to have a scene with Black Jack healing someone.) I dunno, I like that stuff for the fun episodes like the Curry High Trip, but not when it's supposed to be a serious moment.

Last edited by Setsuna (12-04-2009 02:40:22 PM)

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#75 | Back to Top12-04-2009 02:52:23 PM

Ruggahissy
Ballgoer
Registered: 10-26-2009
Posts: 148

Re: What pisses you off the most in SKU?

The poofy uniform sleeves always bothered me. When I first saw the show my first thought was "WTF is up with those sleeves?"

I don't like the color scheme for Anthy's rose bride dress. I find red with green trim to be ugly.


In regards to Touga's sitting out the black rose arc , maybe he's just mourning for that shirt Saionji ruined?

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