This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#51 | Back to Top08-16-2013 08:51:35 PM

Yasha
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Re: Is Touga nothing but a power-mad Machiavelli?

gorgeousshutin wrote:

I'd add a 4) to this list:  Touga's playing with Utena's hair come across as being at once sexual and nonchalant to me.  For a kid his age to have this kind of reaction towards another . . . it says something about what sex-related experiences he could've been through.

Frau Eva has a lot of good points there, but shutin, yours stuck out to me too when I watched the show. It's an almost sensual thing in the middle of a big ball of pain. He should be reacting to the pain, but he's not. He's finding a sensual element to concentrate on. As icky as it is, that's probably the way he learned to react to abuse in general-- find something pleasurable to focus on instead of how much it hurts. emot-gonk

Atropos wrote:

Touga actually had the capacity to be a far more dangerous opponent for Utena than anyone else in the series if he wasn't under Akio's thumb (among other things). Unlike Mikage, Chigusa (game-only, but worth mentioning), and Akio, he isn't caught up in the past. He's like a nascent Nietzschean overman: amoral, powerful, and concerned only with asserting his control over the material world.

My hero! My role model! emot-keke


Jokes aside, this is a great summary of his character. I have always thought that in ten years, he'd be a fucking force to be reckoned with. Maybe even a little scary, if you understood him completely. Even with Utena's good influence on him, I think that's still what he'd become, although he would have good intentions. Er, he'd use his powers for good! http://ohtori.nu/forumstuff/emotes/emot-downs.gif


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#52 | Back to Top08-16-2013 09:39:40 PM

Lurv
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Re: Is Touga nothing but a power-mad Machiavelli?

The hair-playing scene has stuck out to me as well, though that was after other people had brought up the possibility of series!Touga having been sexually abused. Or after watching the movie? I do remember how he talked about growing his hair out because the "customer" liked it. emot-frown

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#53 | Back to Top08-16-2013 09:45:35 PM

Yasha
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Re: Is Touga nothing but a power-mad Machiavelli?

It's just so... I don't know. He looks like he's thinking about something miles away from where he is, or maybe like he's assessing the color and softness of her hair very critically and judging it instead of listening to her. He's just... not all there in that scene. It always stuck out to me but I don't think I ever verbalized it.


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#54 | Back to Top09-14-2013 02:23:54 PM

Frau Eva
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Registered: 10-16-2006
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Re: Is Touga nothing but a power-mad Machiavelli?

*twirls magical girl wand* THREADO RESURREKSHUN

So anyway, I was reading a Reuters investigative article about an underground internet network of adoptive parents trying to get rid of them privately, which of course completely destroyed my last bit of faith in humanity. BUT, there was a mention of a specific disorder that I looked up on a lark. And I think it might be worthy of discussion. Here's some basic wiki info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_a … t_disorder

Unfortunately, Reactive Attachment Disorder is one of the least understood diagnosis, and most long-term studies are in Eastern European orphanages where children are systematically cared for like they're cows in a pen--not the most applicable to cases you'd see in the majority of the world. The disinhibited form in particular seems to describe Touga pretty well. He seeks out pleasure and comfort from anyone willing to provide it, but has no particular attachment to anyone. You're good as long as you're feeding his ego, but you're equally worthy as anyone else willing to do so--no matter how loyal, how long you've known him, how closely related you are, etc.

The disinhibited form shows diffuse attachments as manifest by indiscriminate sociability with marked inability to exhibit appropriate selective attachments (e.g., excessive familiarity with relative strangers or lack of selectivity in choice of attachment figures).[4] There is therefore a lack of "specificity" of attachment figure, the second basic element of attachment behavior.

The inhibited form has a greater tendency to ameliorate with an appropriate caregiver, while the disinhibited form is more enduring.[33] ICD-10 states the disinhibited form "tends to persist despite marked changes in environmental circumstances".


It also mentioned that if the disinhibited form persists until the child is older, the child can often also seek out indiscriminate attachment with peers as well. This disorder also fits Touga better than straight-up Sociopathy since Reactive Attachment Disorder can and has been overcome, while the psychological community is completely torn on whether Sociopaths can be reformed under even the most rigorous therapy. But I remember someone mentioning that Touga probably thinks f himself as a sociopath, which I agree is spot-on. He misinterprets his difficulty in attaching to anyone and ability to guard his emotions as not being able to feel at all. It really seems like Sexual Abuse + Reactive Attachment Disorder + Being later plunked down in a family with too much power and too little giving-a-shit = Touga Kiryuu.

Though I am trying to reconcile within that framework why he would react by finally showing some development with Utena. Again, there's not much on RAD to begin with, but treatment suggests certain therapies and just plain good parenting. I haven't read up of the therapies enough yet, and most forms of therapy aren't something you'd spontaneously encounter. Again, I think it's pretty clear how ambivalent the Kiryuus are, so its understandeable Touga doesn't make any real progress from them. Nanami just gets run over by him, and Saionji is...Saionji. However well-meaning and loyal he may have been, he's unstable and got enough of his own issues that I can see it not ultimately working. Utena does at points seem to be willing to fairly give him a shot, reacts well when he does at least seem sincere, but is confidant enough to firmly not take his shit when she realizes he's being manipulative. I'm a bit weirded out by what I'm suggesting, but does Utena putting her foot down against Touga make him seek some sort of almost-Oedipal approval from her?


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#55 | Back to Top09-14-2013 04:55:25 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
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Re: Is Touga nothing but a power-mad Machiavelli?

Holy, Frau Eva, what you wrote sounds just like the 'alienated self' that Yoji E. said Touga had gained from the long time abuse . . .


(SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Completed as of May 12, 2018) / (PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 4 as of Oct 31, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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