This is a static copy of In the Rose Garden, which existed as the center of the western Utena fandom for years. Enjoy. :)

#26 | Back to Top12-05-2011 07:21:22 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

Anthiena wrote:

Well, D. is a bit more self-assured than Dave was, I think. More comfortable in his own skin. I always saw Dave as struggling with himself in a quiet way-pretending he's cool but really, he's got this little nest for himself, this comfort zone. He is afraid of dying (which Terezi's coinflip showed) and simultaneously admiring and hating Bro. On the inverse, Bro can be okay with Dave's terribad movies and do things his own way. He's not apologetic but nor is he as cutting as Dave was. In a sense, he seems warmer. England counts him as his best friend and is adamant about his 'friend, real friend with real feelings'.

I like DS a lot, and I think you're spot-on about him.  I may differ with you a little on Dave.  Dave is terrified of death -- we see this many times, not just as a result of Terezi's coinflip -- but to me, Dave's biggest flaw is that he is so ironic that even he often seems to be confused about his real motivations.  DS, on the other hand, has given us some of the most irony-free dialogue of any character in Homestuck so far.  He seems completely sincere.  I peg him as an irony connoisseur; irony is something to be perfected as an art form, not thrown around willy-nilly.

I put it forth that Lalonde is also a THIEF of VOID right here and now. The first part is pretty obvious-the second part is conjecture but I would bet money that Lalonde is a THIEF. Bro/D. is certainly a 'dickprince' lulz.

Void is actually pretty well-grounded conjecture for Lalonde.  UU has indicated that Lalonde is surrounded by perceptual dark spots.  We know that Equius's ancestor was surrounded by similar dark spots, which made his residence an ideal place for the Sufferer's followers to hide.  For now, I'm actually more confident that Lalonde is a Hero of Void than I am that she's a Thief, but Thief seems like a good guess.

Dickprince indeed.  emot-biggrin  Out of fondness, I'll guess that DS is a Prince of Heart.  And that his name is Dean, and Lalonde's is Ruth.

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#27 | Back to Top12-07-2011 01:44:43 PM

Anthiena
Egghead
From: ...the space between your ears
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1108

Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

Yes, agreed. Also, gaaaah, flip the stuff on Lalonde-VOID is obvious, THIEF is not. And heh-Dean would be cool-especially given James Dean.

Sincerity is not Dave's strongpoint, certainly. You hit some of what I was attempting to get at in far better words. I find it hilarious how much his troll and Exile have in common: a devotion to law. What is this actually saying about Dave? It's also kind of pointing that out of the trolls, the one most able to get what they needed/wanted out of their kids was Terezi. She made the doomed timeline Davesprite came from and used her foresight at a very pertinent moment-when Vriska was about to doom them all with her decision.

It's both sad and pathetic how self-destructive Vriska was-for all that she did, the person most damaged by her actions was her. She screwed herself out of any meaningful relationship, out of meeting alpha-John and ultimately, her own life. The one good purpose she served was to make Terezi face her chosen duty-justice. I believe that as well as doing it to preserve the lives of the surviving trolls, it was equally a merciful thing. Vriska's existence was a painful, sad thing-a slide downward without stop, dragging anyone within reach down with her.

I am going to make something of a bizarre prediction. Crows are symbols of death-which Dave did in fact die, if only to rise to God Tier-but he will die again-to save "Dean". His death will be heroic and therefore permanent. There is very little to support this-but I do think that he will make a heroic sacrifice.

Also, sort of joke theory: the scratch kids will never find out UU's name. Nor will we.


I stopped seeking to be sought after. That wasn't being true to myself.
I want to become someone who can exercise power. I want to become a prince. - Ikuni

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#28 | Back to Top12-07-2011 10:51:11 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

I like your theory about Dave's fate.  The object of the game for him and Terezi has always been to avoid having dead Daves pile up, right?  He cried in the shower when he saw the first one, who died trying to stop Diamonds Droog from stealing Rose's books and the Sburb CDs.  He was stunned and teary over Bro's death.  He couldn't kill himself on his Quest Bed.  I think you're right; the arc of his development makes it likely that at some point he'll have to reconcile himself to an act of self-sacrifice.  I wonder if he will find a way to do even that ironically. emot-smile

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#29 | Back to Top12-08-2011 02:02:42 AM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6342
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Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

The only way I can imagine Dave die ironically is if he was stabbed by his own broken sword.

In a strange way, that would have also been a full circle back to the part where he accidentally stabbed the bird with "cheap piece o' shit".

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#30 | Back to Top12-08-2011 07:44:48 PM

7scimitarroll
Wakaba Wrangler
Registered: 11-26-2011
Posts: 12
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Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

satyreyes wrote:

I think you're right; the arc of his development makes it likely that at some point he'll have to reconcile himself to an act of self-sacrifice.

I've been reading out of order, but I was under the impression that the whole episode with the Tumor already counted as that? I thought that neither Rose nor Dave knew that they'd find their quest beds, and as such had reconciled themselves to their deaths prior to the events of [S] Cascade.
Of course, Guardian Dave could still die to save alpha!Bro, but that might be too cliché.
Half-joke theory: who here thinks that R. Lalonde's guardian (post-Scratch Rose) is also this world's First Guardian?

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#31 | Back to Top12-08-2011 08:17:01 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

7scimitarroll wrote:

I've been reading out of order, but I was under the impression that the whole episode with the Tumor already counted as that? I thought that neither Rose nor Dave knew that they'd find their quest beds, and as such had reconciled themselves to their deaths prior to the events of [S] Cascade.

Hmm, that's a good point.  It's true that the Green Sun mission was presented as a suicide mission, and Dave was getting his snark on pretty hard trying to convince Rose to let him go instead of her.  At the same time, it's one thing to go on a mission you're told is a suicide mission, and another thing to actually face death.  Alone and in the absence of a quest bed, Dave might have choked.  It's possible.  Either way, his new godhood raises the stakes.  Before he ascended, he knew he was mortal; no matter how much he played with his timetables, someday it was going to be alpha-Dave that bit the dust.  Now he can be immortal, if he wants to be.  All he has to do is stay out of situations that would make him heroic or infamous.  He doesn't have to face death anymore.  And I think this will make it more heroic if he finally decides to face death after all.

And after writing that, I watched the new update.  We've been trolled hard.  emot-gonk

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#32 | Back to Top12-08-2011 08:25:38 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6342
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Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

I just want to say... what the hell was that?! T--that?! emot-gonk

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#33 | Back to Top12-09-2011 01:26:06 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

And now... Andrew is a robot... who is taunting us.

This post contains massive spoilers, even more than usual.

Notable in the big splash picture with all the dead characters: Jane and WV each have a question mark next to the big red X.  WV may be hanging onto life as PM faces down Ultimate Jack Noir, and Jane might not have died in the random explosion.  Marked with question marks instead of X's are Spades Slick and Clover.  Clover was last seen escaping Doc Scratch's study in typically lucky fashion.  I had presumed Spades Slick dead after he shot Snowman, which destroyed the universe SS was standing in at the time, but what do I know?  Dad is crossed out, but the red X is marked out with green scribbles, I assume to indicate that Dad is dead in the red universe (the original kids') but alive in the green one (the new kids').  Sollux, characteristically, is half crossed out; his physical self recently got obliterated propelling the trolls' asteroid towards the Green Sun, but he's got a dream bubble fragment that's still chatting up Aradia.  And the bear on Andrew's wall has a little frowny face. emot-frown

Still canonically alive according to the picture: all four original kids; all the new kids except Jane; Dad; Li'l Cal; Ultimate Jack Noir; Peregrine Mendicant; Aradia; Sollux (x1/2); Karkat; Kanaya; Terezi; Gamzee; Lord English; Ms. Paint. 

Confirmed dead: the entire Felt, including Snowman, except for Clover; the three cronies of Spades Slick; the three cronies of Ultimate Jack Noir; the Aimless Renegade and the Wayward Questant; Doc Scratch; Bro; Mom; Becquerel; Aradiabot; Tavros; Sollux (x1/2); Nepeta; Vriska; Equius; Eridan; Feferi; Bilious Slick; Maplehoof.

That makes eighteen and a half established characters definitely alive, versus twenty-two and a half definitely dead -- well, thirty-five and a half if you count the entire Felt and not just Snowman, but they totally should not count.  Hussie is indeed burning through his characters prodigiously!

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#34 | Back to Top12-09-2011 08:00:17 AM

Anthiena
Egghead
From: ...the space between your ears
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1108

Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

Double. Tee. Eff.


HUUUUUSSSSIIIIIIIIIIE


Also, has anyone else noticed that Terezi is saying not only an arc number but something else?

143

1 4 3

1 4444 333

1 LOV3 YOU etc-love


I stopped seeking to be sought after. That wasn't being true to myself.
I want to become someone who can exercise power. I want to become a prince. - Ikuni

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#35 | Back to Top01-06-2012 10:18:08 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6342
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Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

So apparently, we've come across a GCAT in the storyline!

Once again, the "GCAT" motif :|a

On that note, I have a feeling we will know where Rose's cat ended up when he was mysteriously spirited away.

Also, this fan art... it made me glee with delight... The Sufferer as Akio is just sooooooo.... perfect. Both have suffered for the world, and presumably blames everything wrong with the way the world works: http://tubbsen.tumblr.com/tagged/utenastuck

And the Disciple would be his devoted Kanae.

Last edited by Hiraku (01-06-2012 10:18:41 PM)

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#36 | Back to Top01-07-2012 05:03:27 PM

Anthiena
Egghead
From: ...the space between your ears
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1108

Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD

Fuck, that is uh... hot.  etc-jurishlick


I stopped seeking to be sought after. That wasn't being true to myself.
I want to become someone who can exercise power. I want to become a prince. - Ikuni

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#37 | Back to Top01-15-2012 03:08:59 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

Ro-Lal has a name!  emot-dance

She is Roxy Lalonde, the Souse of Void.  emot-rofl

I made up the Souse part.

She seems a lot more competent at dark arcana than Rose was at the beginning of the game.  Maybe Rose would have gotten this good at it by the time she was fifteen and a half, like Roxy is.

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#38 | Back to Top01-15-2012 03:13:09 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6342
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Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

At last, we see Jasper when he's still alive.

Good to know that he had a good life with young!Mom, I think. Or he probably died from accidental ingestion of Roxy's martini.

That said, Roxy seemed so much more passionate about the things she does than Rose, who's... being passive aggressive and sarcastic about the stuff she likes.

It's probably the alcohol. :|a And, judging from her room, looks like her strife specibi is most likely riflekind.

EDIT: mspaint wiki has updated! Roxy's known as the Rogue of Void.

Last edited by Hiraku (01-15-2012 03:19:37 PM)

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#39 | Back to Top01-15-2012 04:09:54 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

How did I miss "roguishly?"  Yes, the Rogue of Void.  Sounds dangerous!

I wonder what a Rogue does, or a Void hero, for that matter.  Our existing examples are Nepeta (Rogue of Heart) and Equius (Heir of Void), respectively, and since those are the two least relevant trolls in the plot, we don't really have much of an example to work from, do we?  We do know that Void heroes are hard to spy on because of those perceptual dark spots.  I have no idea what a Rogue does.  Obviously not the same thing as a Thief.  Crawls through vents?  Has a land with a cute acronym?  Maintains the shipping wall?

I think this increases the probability that all the titles are gender-specific.  All seven of the duplicated titles, including the ones like "rogue" and "seer" that aren't gender-specific in normal English, have only gone to a pair of the same gender.  That narrows the ironist whose name I presume to be Dick Strider down to Mage, Bard, and Prince.

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#40 | Back to Top01-15-2012 08:18:04 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

etc-love

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#41 | Back to Top01-15-2012 08:24:51 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6342
Website

Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

At last, the mystery of the final 2 kids are known!!! etc-love

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#42 | Back to Top01-17-2012 05:17:02 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 907

Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

Can I post a criticism of Homestuck here? I promise not to attack fans of the comic, or to attack its worthiness, just a few things that have turned me off it.

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#43 | Back to Top01-17-2012 09:47:49 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

I certainly don't mind!  emot-smile

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#44 | Back to Top01-18-2012 01:41:46 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 907

Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

Let's see if I can articulate this.
The root of most of Homestuck's problems lie in its interface. The pseudo-text adventure interface was important in earlier MSPAs, when audience interaction was a prominent feature, but now that Hussie is controlling the comic by itself it's more of a hindrance. Do we need to see '[S]: Ascend' when we see the character ascending? It's pointless to use the interface anymore. Part of the joy of Problem Sleuth and early Homestuck was seeing Hussie's creative responses to nonsensical commands.
The characterization present in Homestuck is also problematic. There is no dialogue in the comic or the text. All discourse between characters is expressed through the chatlogs—chatlogs which often stretch to the bottom of the page, forcing you to scroll down—far away from the panel itself. The readability of the comic is severely affected, and once you've gotten to the bottom you're likely to have forgotten what the point was.
Hussie's final offenses are the main point of controversy. The first intermission and the 'Hivebent' arc, both of which looked away from the main characters to focus on entirely different people, ostensibly for the purpose of 'background'. The information contained in these arcs should either have been somehow integrated into the main story or left to wither in the author's mind.
So yeah. That's why I don't like Homestuck.

EDIT: Changed final line emot-wink

Last edited by Atropos (01-18-2012 05:12:10 PM)

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#45 | Back to Top01-18-2012 02:15:53 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

Hee emot-smile  I kind of want to respond, but in the end, if you don't care about Homestuck, you don't care about Homestuck.  Convincing someone to care about something is a Herculean feat best reserved for things more important than webcomics.  Sorry it's not to your taste. emot-smile

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#46 | Back to Top01-18-2012 05:12:34 PM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 907

Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

Forget that.
Bring on the firestorm!emot-dance

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#47 | Back to Top01-18-2012 05:38:02 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

Aha, I see you've changed the last line of your previous post from "I haven't cared about Homestuck for a thousand pages" to "I don't like Homestuck."  emot-wink  But I kind of feel like the same reasoning applies.  I'm not going to convince you to like Homestuck -- especially not when your comments about Homestuck are perfectly sensible.  You're quite right about Homestuck's long chatlogs and digressive style; they are real, and though I think these narrative choices contribute a lot to the impact of the story, I can understand why they are not to everybody's taste.  This is not a case of I'm right and you're wrong; it's a case of I like Gorgonzola cheese and you don't like Gorgonzola cheese.  So why argue? emot-smile

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#48 | Back to Top01-18-2012 06:26:47 PM

Hiraku
Easter Elf #40
From: Singapore
Registered: 02-21-2007
Posts: 6342
Website

Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

Yeah, I have to admit, the scrolling part was pretty annoying.

Sometimes for one picture, there's a wall of texts to read. I certainly didn't read it thoroughly. Most of the time I look at the pics, and click away and make sense of it based on what's going on in the picture. I get my explanations mostly in the misprint wiki emot-redface

Right now, I'm still reading Homestuck, to see how something with this grand proportion, will wrap up in the end. I still enjoyed the character dynamics. That part hasn't gone away yet, imo.

On that note though, I had no idea Hussie made new pages based on audience input. emot-confused

Last edited by Hiraku (01-18-2012 06:29:03 PM)

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#49 | Back to Top01-18-2012 07:08:33 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

Hiraku wrote:

On that note though, I had no idea Hussie made new pages based on audience input. emot-confused

Yeah, back before Homestuck started, Andrew ran an MS Paint Adventure called Problem Sleuth.  There was a forum called the Suggestion Box where fans would submit commands for the characters, and Andrew would choose a command and illustrate the results.  The conceit of the comic, at that time, was that fans decided the direction of the comic.  A lot of fans liked that system, and when Andrew stopped using the Suggestion Box shortly after starting Homestuck, people complained.

Why the change?  Well, MSPA picked up a lot of readers as things went on.  Speaking about Problem Sleuth, Hussie explained the change this way:

AH wrote:

When a story begins to get thousands of suggestions, paradoxically, it becomes much harder to call it truly "reader-driven". This is simply because there is so much available, the author can cherry-pick from what's there to suit whatever he might have in mind, whether he's deliberately planning ahead or not. But as it happened, I was planning ahead much more as the story neared its end, and I would tend to A) pick commands that suited what I had in mind, or B) just call a spade a spade and outright MAKE UP a command for an idea I had, which I did most often for many of the later attacks (like the Sleuth Diplomacy variations, Comb Raves, etc).

Of course, Andrew could have just used the first reader command to be submitted.  That's what he did with the very first MSPA, Jailbreak.  Jailbreak was not very good.  It had a couple funny jokes (including the "what pumpkin?" meme that survives to this day), but in the end it had no story -- and how could it, with the author unable to plan what the main character would do, and readers who were largely more interested in seeing their bizarre and madcap commands illustrated than in developing a narrative?  Andrew left Jailbreak unfinished.

So if you choose the first command, it's very hard to tell a good story; but if you can pick any command you want from a suggestion list of hundreds or thousands, you might as well just make it up yourself.  And indeed, that's what Andrew took to doing in Homestuck.  I think the last time the Suggestion Box was opened was to allow fans to choose the names of the trolls, and even there, Andrew was selective; the names had to have the right number of characters, evoke the appropriate zodiac sign, and so on.  The fan-driven comic format just wasn't compatible with good storytelling, so when Andrew decided he wanted to try telling good stories, he had to downplay and then abandon the format.

Last edited by satyreyes (01-18-2012 07:22:52 PM)

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#50 | Back to Top01-20-2012 08:31:53 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Absolute Destiny Sburb

I know what a Rogue does now!  emot-dance

A Rogue explores things.  Nepeta, as the Rogue of Heart, had a shipping wall: she explored her friends' interrelationships.  And Roxy, as the Rogue of Void, just had an animation where she appears to explore the void of the Furthest Ring, its dream bubbles, and landscapes past and present.  So a Rogue isn't a rogue in the sense of a rebel or renegade, but in the sense of a wanderer or vagrant.

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